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The Great Deception of Christianity - Departing the Faith (the Word)

sooda

Veteran Member
Read the post you are quoting from :)

Revelation is referring to the Roman emperors who persecuted Christians. Revelation was written to the people of the first century. They understood the symbolism.. Studying their history will help us understand it too.

Queen Berniece did cavort with Rome because she was the mistress of Titus.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Read the OP. This is only one of many scriptures proving that the man of sin, the Antichrist. 666 is the number of a man the Pope and Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church; Mystery Babylon the great harlot and the Mother of harlots (professed protestantism) of REVELATION 13; 14; 17:2-6; 18:1-5 and Daniel 7 and 8. This has already been shown so far throughout the scriptures in this thread.

You can't be serious..that's man's teachings.
Which Jesus Christ himself condemned man's teachings in Matthew 15:7-9.

7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings.
The very things Jesus Christ Condemns your going by.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
In case you didn't know.. there are
3 verses in the book of Matthew 24.
That you have to get around to prove your theory on things.
So what are those 3 verses in Matthew 24

Jesus knew about Antiochus IV and how he defiled the Temple and made circumcision illegal.. so he is saying when you see the Abomination of Desolation again, flee to the mountains.

You are operating in a vacuum because you don't know any history.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Revelation is referring to the Roman emperors who persecuted Christians. Revelation was written to the people of the first century. They understood the symbolism.. Studying their history will help us understand it too. Queen Berniece did cavort with Rome because she was the mistress of Titus.

Arr nope :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Jesus knew about Antiochus IV and how he defiled the Temple and made circumcision illegal.. so he is saying when you see the Abomination of Desolation again, flee to the mountains. You are operating in a vacuum because you don't know any history.

Arr nope again. We have been there and done this before in another thread. Happy to repost the content here or send a link for anyone to follow. I believe you left that thread as I remember in confusion last time and could not answer any questions asked of you in another thread that did show why you are in error in regards to your catholic teaching in regards to Antiochus IV it your application to Daniel 7-8 and Matthew 24.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
You can't be serious..that's man's teachings.
Which Jesus Christ himself condemned man's teachings in Matthew 15:7-9.

7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings.
The very things Jesus Christ Condemns your going by.

Okie how? :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
In case you didn't know.. there are
3 verses in the book of Matthew 24.
That you have to get around to prove your theory on things.
So what are those 3 verses in Matthew 24

I do not need to get around anything. Both the old and new testament scriptures support the OP. Christianity has fallen away from God's Word in order to follow that teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. I believe God is calling his poeple out from following these Churchs back to his pure Word. Disagree? Show why and prove your claims. The evidence has already been provided here in the OP proving what is shared here is true. If you disagree and cannot show why you disagree why do you not believe the scriptures and the evidence provided in this OP? :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Arr nope again. We have been there and done this before in another thread. Happy to repost the content here or send a link for anyone to follow. I believe you left that thread as I remember in confusion last time and could not answer any questions asked of you in another thread that did show why you are in error in regards to your catholic teaching in regards to Antiochus IV it your application to Daniel 7-8 and Matthew 24.

Nope. I am not confused at all. You just haven't bothered to study history so you fail to understand what Jesus was talking about.

The reason for Hannukah is because they celebrate the rededication of the Temple after Antiochus IV defiled it.. Defiling the Temple CAUSES desolation.

Antiochus IV ruled the Jews from 175 to 164 BC. He is remembered as a major villain and persecutor in the Jewish traditions associated with Hanukkah, including the books of Maccabees and the "Scroll of Antiochus". Jul 30 2019
Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes
 

sooda

Veteran Member

Bible History Online - Antiochus IV Epiphanes Bust ...
https://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/greece/2-antiochus-iv-bust-bb.html

Antiochus IV usurped the throne of his brother Seleucus IV who died. Antiochus was determined to hellenize Israel and make them a people who were worthy of bordering Egypt, he needed a loyal hellenized population there. The Jews were quickly becoming …

Antiochus tried to Hellenize the Jews and persecuted them so badly that the Jews revolted. Remember the Maccabean Revolt?

Remember?

Hasmonean Dynasty | Judaean dynasty | Britannica
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hasmonean-dynasty
Hasmonean Dynasty
, dynasty of ancient Judaea, descendants of the Maccabee (q.v.) family. The name derived (according to Josephus, in The Antiquities of the Jews) from the name of their ancestor Hasmoneus (Hasmon), or Asamonaios.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Nope. I am not confused at all. You just haven't bothered to study history so you fail to understand what Jesus was talking about.

The reason for Hannukah is because they celebrate the rededication of the Temple after Antiochus IV defiled it.. Defiling the Temple CAUSES desolation.

Antiochus IV ruled the Jews from 175 to 164 BC. He is remembered as a major villain and persecutor in the Jewish traditions associated with Hanukkah, including the books of Maccabees and the "Scroll of Antiochus". Jul 30 2019
Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

Ok how about I make a deal with you. Instead of you cuting and pasting website links here like you did last time in another thread how about you address my posts to yours? Your only repeating yourself now without addressing any previous posts to you. How about you debate it with me post by post I will answer and address all your posts section by section and you answer mine do you agree? Your just repeating yourself here Soda. This has already been addressed in detail in another thread and you refused to address all the posts that disagreed with you. If you agree then good if you disagree then there is no point in discussing this here and we will have to agree to disagree and I will just post the link to the other thread where this has aready been discussed in detail. Do you agree or not? Antiochus IV does not fit the discription of Daniel 7; Daniel 8 and Matthew 24 as shown earlier and is a Catholic teaching that is not biblical. Happy to show it again through the scriptures and History. Just let me know but you have to agree to answer my posts, scriptures and questions to you. Do you agree?

Your above linked posts and more as well as your claims have already been refuted in another thread (and you simply ignored it and would not adress anything posted to you)

1. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
2. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
3. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
4. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
5. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
6. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day is it really Sunday?
7. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day is it really Sunday?

If you disagree to my requests here feel free to start a new thread and send me the link.

Hope this helps :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Ok how about I make a deal with you. Instead of you cuting and pasting website links like you did last time. Your only repeating yourself now without addressing any previous posts to you. How about you debate it with me post by post I will answer and address all your posts section by section and you answer mine do you agree? Your just repeating yourself here. This has already been addressed in detail in another thread. If you agree then good if you disagree. Then I will just post the link to the other thread where this has aready been discussed in detail. Do you agree or not? Antiochus IV does not fit the discription of Daniel 7; Daniel 8 and Matthew 24 as shown earlier and is a Catholic teaching that is not biblical. Happy to show it again through the scriptures and History. Just let me know but you have to agree to answer my posts, scriptures and questions to you. Do you agree?

Your above posts and claims have already been refuted (and you simply ignored it):

The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
The Lord's Day is it really Sunday?

Daniel 7 is about the four kingdoms Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.. He was writing at a critical time for the Jews who were throwing off the yoke of the Seleucid King Antiochus IV.

The Seleucid dynasty which existed from 312 BC to 63 BC.

Look at the descriptions of Antiochus IV’s disposition toward the Jews, he certainly fits the description:

“He committed deeds of murder, and spoke with great arrogance. Israel mourned deeply in every community, rulers and elders groaned, maidens and young men became faint, the beauty of women faded.” (1 Maccabees 1:24-26)

“According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers’ necks” (1 Maccabees 1:60-61).

“So they attacked them on the sabbath, and they died, with their wives and children and cattle, to the number of a thousand persons.” (1 Maccabees 2:38)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Daniel 7 is about the four kingdoms Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.. He was writing at a critical time for the Jews who were throwing off the yoke of the Seleucid King Antiochus IV.

The Seleucid dynasty which existed from 312 BC to 63 BC.

Look at the descriptions of Antiochus IV’s disposition toward the Jews, he certainly fits the description:

“He committed deeds of murder, and spoke with great arrogance. Israel mourned deeply in every community, rulers and elders groaned, maidens and young men became faint, the beauty of women faded.” (1 Maccabees 1:24-26)

“According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers’ necks” (1 Maccabees 1:60-61).

“So they attacked them on the sabbath, and they died, with their wives and children and cattle, to the number of a thousand persons.” (1 Maccabees 2:38)

Ok I guess you do not agree to my previous post? Your just repeating yourself. This post has been answered in detail here by CT to first 2 linked post already provided above and below..

1. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
2. Why Antiochus IV is not the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8; in The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Catholic Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Looking at Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Epimanes, the mad one], and the failure of this person to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn':

"... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

There are some who attempt, from the apocryphal books of Maccabees, to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn', but now let us examine that source and see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defended.

For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

"... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

It only gets worse from here on out... as even according to history he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father Antiochus III had, etc.

A lone Roman ambassador [Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate] and some guards put him to flight in Egypt [ca. 168 BC], rescuing Egypt completely out of his hands:

"... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

Even the Jews [Judas Maccabees, etal. according to the apocryphal books of [1-4] Maccabees] threw him [his armies] out of Jerusalem, in the Maccabean revolt. And nowhere could it be said that he waxed exceeding great in the east [Media-Persian, area], dying there in great heaviness [sorrow/sadness] and dishonour [1 Maccabees 6:3-6, Bishop's Bible 1568]:

1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

1 Maccabees 6:6 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And how that Lysias went foorth first with a great power, and was dryuen away of the Iewes, how that they had wonne the victory, and gotten great goodes out of the hoastes that perished,

Further more:

1 Maccabees 6:8 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So it chaunced, that when the king heard these wordes, he was afrayde, & greeued very sore: Wherefore he layde him downe vpon his bed, and fell sicke for very sorowe, and all because it had not happened as he had deuised.

1 Maccabees 6:9 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And there continued he long: for his griefe was euer more and more, so that he sawe he must needes dye.

1 Maccabees 6:10 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore he sent for all his friendes, & saide vnto them: The sleepe is gone fro myne eyes for the very sorowe and vexation of heart that I haue.

2 Maccabees 9:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - At the same time came Antiochus againe with dishonour out of Persia.

2 Maccabees 9:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For when he came to Persepolis, and vndertoke to robbe the temple, and to subdue the citie, the people ranne together and defended them selues, insomuch that he and his were faine to flee with shame: and so after that flight it happened that Antiochus came againe with dishonour.

and, by his own words, as given in 1 Maccabees, he dies, a miserable failure, in a “straunge lande” of the “east”, or just outside of Persia [and apparently, whose body, did Phillip bring down into Egypt, 2 Maccabees 9:29 Bishop's Bible 1568]:

1 Maccabees 6:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - I know that these troubles are come vpon me for the same cause: and behold, I must dye with great sorowe in a straunge lande.

1 Maccabees 6:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So the king Antiochus died there, in the hundred fourtie and nine yere.

2 Maccabees 9:28 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Thus that murtherer and blasphemer of God was sore smitten: and like as he had intreated other men, so he died a miserable death in a straunge countrey vpon a mountayne.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Catholic Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.

Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

Daniel 8:9 - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].

The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

[1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.

[2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,

[3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.

1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.

Ok Soda now please address these two posts that show why you are in error :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Catholic Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.

Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

Daniel 8:9 - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].

The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

[1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.

[2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,

[3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.

1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.

Ok Soda now please address these two posts that show why you are in error :)

Antiochus IV wasn't the last of them.

When Alexander the Great died four notable generals eventually came forth; Ptolemy ruled Egypt, Cassander ruled Macedonia, Seleucus ruled Babylon/Syria and Lysimachus ruled Asia Minor.

The little horn comes out of one of the four kingdoms after the break up of Alexander's empire, not the breakup of the Roman Empire.

The Papacy didn't come out of any of the four kingdoms.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
From the National Review on what the pope is currently doing.

Pope Francis, Wayward Shepherd | National Review
  1. Fawning over despotic countries because they are globalist/communist.
  2. Remaining silent about clerical abuses like sexual abuse (and cover-ups)
  3. Promoting humanism and secularism, diluting the actual Christian message in favor of "what's modern."
  4. Turning the Catholic Church into an extension of the UN or EU.
  5. October 2019, he actually had people bow before the Incan fertility god, Pachamama. Idolatry, anyone?
All of this in the name of tolerance and cultural relativism. But it's all very evil.
Please recognize that this NR article was an opinion piece, and let me just add that the "conservatives" in the CC tend to not like PF, and some of them are really outspoken about it.

And those five points really are quite nonsensical, so the author has shown that honesty is simply not his forte.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Please recognize that this NR article was an opinion piece, and let me just add that the "conservatives" in the CC tend to not like PF, and some of them are really outspoken about it.

And those five points really are quite nonsensical, so the author has shown that honesty is simply not his forte.

Maybe hating the Catholic Church is the glue that holds them together.

Antiochus IV was killed in 164 BC nd he wasn't the last of the Seleucid dynasty.. just the meanest in his treatment of the Jews.

They were finally disposed of by Pompey in 63 AD and by then the Hasmonean rulers were fighting each other for the control of Judah... they also represented two opposing religious factions the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Pompey took Jerusalem and during the siege
Pompey destroyed the city of Jerusalem and badly damaged the Temple.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Jesus knew about Antiochus IV and how he defiled the Temple and made circumcision illegal.. so he is saying when you see the Abomination of Desolation again, flee to the mountains.

You are operating in a vacuum because you don't know any history.

Well it's evidence that you don't have any clue or idea what the Abomination of Desolation is..
Who and what is the Abomination of Desolation who is that.
At what point in time does the Abomination of Desolation take place..

Now remember those things that Jesus Christ gave Prophecy about in
Matthew 24 can not happen until
3 verses in Matthew 24 happens first.

That when these 3 verses happens which will triggers all the other prophecy's in
Matthew 24 to happen, Like dominoes falling over.
And all these prophecy are found in the book of Revelation.
Revelation means to uncover to reveal.
And thats exactly what Jesus Christ did in his book of Revelation is uncover and revealed everything in his book of Revelation. About the prophecy's of
Matthew 24.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Well it's evidence that you don't have any clue or idea what the Abomination of Desolation is..
Who and what is the Abomination of Desolation who is that.
At what point in time does the Abomination of Desolation take place..

Now remember those things that Jesus Christ gave Prophecy about in
Matthew 24 can not happen until
3 verses in Matthew 24 happens first.

That when these 3 verses happens which will triggers all the other prophecy's in
Matthew 24 to happen, Like dominoes falling over.
And all these prophecy are found in the book of Revelation.
Revelation means to uncover to reveal.
And thats exactly what Jesus Christ did in his book of Revelation is uncover and revealed everything in his book of Revelation. About the prophecy's of
Matthew 24.

Jesus knew what the Abomination of Desolation was. He knew about Antiochus and the Maccabean Revolt. Its ridiculous to think he didn't know because it was a terrible time for the Jews .. and Jesus would have known the history of Hannukah when the Temple was rededicated.

Jesus could also see what was happening.. The Jews were fighting each other and the Romans. It was bound to end badly..

In fact some churches include the Books of the Maccabees... I think the Armenian church includes it.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Okie how? :)

By man's teachings will say
"Mystery, Babylon the Great , The Mother of Harlots" Revelation 17:5
As being the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope as being the beast of
Revelation 13.
That's all man's teachings and nothing that Jesus Christ taught..
If the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon the great..then your going to have to explain exactly how the Roman Catholic Church came to be at the time of Nimrod
of building the tower of Babel.
Genesis 10:8-10...11:1-9.
Note that Babel is short for Babylon.
As both means the same thing
Babel = Babylon.
And during the time of Daniel the prophet time we can find Babylon..
If you say the Roman Catholic Church as being Babylon how exactly did the Roman Catholic Church get all the way back Daniel time and Nimrods time..
When there's no mentioning of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church didn't come into existence until the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ..about 70 years later. And it was Disciples Paul and Peter who establish the Roman Catholic Church about 70 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
At this time the Roman Catholic Church was called the church of Antioch.
And then many years later, the church of Antioch soon to be called the Roman Catholic Church..
And then many years later the Roman Catholic Church moved to Rome and
over thru the Government of Rome.
Of Constantine and the Pope took the seat of power of Rome.. which is called to day
the. Vatican. of Rome.

Where the Roman Catholic Church the Vatican now set's is the same place where Jesus Christ was taken to Emperor Caesar of Rome and stood before Pilate the governor and the people cried out crucify him.and Jesus Christ was taken back to Jerusalem and crucified.
 
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