The Great Wall of Trump

[psychoslice]

How else are you going to stop these parasites taking jobs and tax payers dollars.

 

[Mindmaster]

How else are you going to stop these parasites taking jobs and tax payers dollars.

It's not even that, but just that going soft encourages them. We should put sniper towers on the wall and be done with it. It'll go from you have a 50/50 chance of dying in the desert to a 100% chance. Cheaper than building concrete walls, just put a tower up every 300 yds. As soon as you hop the fence, blam. We're far too nice.

 

[Mindmaster]

Illegal immigrants?
A privileged class?
What?

If someone announces that there is an all you can eat buffet, but you can only come if your name is Rowan do you have a privilege? I think you do...

They are coming for the all you can eat buffet, and they will do anything to get it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Also sort of @lewisnotmiller, so my take is that I should stop following laws because they don't suit me? This is a the logic at work, and options or not it's ludicrous. You just can't keep a cohesive/safe society if someone is allowed to cheat. I'll contrive a pretty reasonable fantasy to illustrate:

For example, if you committed a minor crime (just a misdemeanor) as a US citizen you would be required to identify yourself with ID and then face whatever penalty. Whatever that punishment was (most likely a fine), it'll follow you around until you pay it. (Screwing up your credit, amongst other penalties...) An illegal in a sanctuary city cannot even be asked if they are illegal, so how can you force them to provide documents? What is the penalty when they break the law and give a fictitious name? That's right, nothing. This whole mess creates a privileged class who do not have to follow any of the rules, or pay the price when they do bad things. These people know that, and exploit it. They don't have to pay taxes, they get welfare and medical, and can even drive in most of these places. What advantage does citizenship bring? It seems a liability to me.

Hmm...not sure why you tagged me into this one. For this thread, at least, I'm not going to discuss the morality or otherwise.
Think of it this way. You have a magic bucket of $20 billion which you are to use to reduce the negative impacts of illegal immigration (in it's totality).
Is using it all to build a wall a better decision than (for example) vastly increasing policing of visa overstays, and simultaneously increasing border patrols using existing infrastructure only?

I actually don't have a final opinion on this. I don't like the wall as a concept at all, hence I am avoiding moral discussion here. I can accept for now that illegal immigration is bad, and the USA has the right to protect itself from it. Is this the best way in your opinion?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How else are you going to stop these parasites taking jobs and tax payers dollars.

That's kinda the question, if somewhat more harshly worded than the OP.
Let me use equally straight-forward language.

Not all illegal immigrants are border-jumping Mexicans. So is blowing your wad on a $20 billion wall the smartest spend of a finite resource (money)? Or are there alternative policing methods which would be MORE effective in reducing the level of...err...parasites.

 

[columbus]

It's not even that, but just that going soft encourages them. We should put sniper towers on the wall and be done with it. It'll go from you have a 50/50 chance of dying in the desert to a 100% chance. Cheaper than building concrete walls, just put a tower up every 300 yds. As soon as you hop the fence, blam. We're far too nice.

Why is just prosecuting the US criminals who hire them too difficult? The fines would pay for the enforcement and nobody dies in the desert.
I'll tell you why I don't think that will happen. Because the illegals are so incredibly profitable.
Tom

 

[BSM1]

Many don't migrate legally because they can't wait years for the process to be approved and finalized. They need money NOW in order to support their families. They want a better life for their children. They need to be able to send money back to their elderly parents who are unable to work. The right to live and to take care of those you love...is that too much to ask?

Let me tell you something about Hispanics; they are some of the hardest working, most family oriented people on the planet. They will work from sun up to sun down and never complain. They will willingly do the jobs that many Americans refuse to do. They don't give two flips about political correctness or being offended by every freaking thing under the sun.

I say if they want to come in, let them. Don't turn them away. Don't deport them. Make them citizens! Chasing the American dream is not for "whites only."

And yes, I am a white male. And a cop.

But they are breaking to law by entering this country illegally. When you became a cop didn't you swear to uphold the law? Is it much to ask police officers to arrest law breakers instead of trying to interpret the law?

 

[Neo Deist]

Illegal immigrants?
A privileged class?
What?

He is talking about them not being documented. If arrested, they make bail and then you never see or hear from them again. There is no way to track them with a fictitious name and lack of documentation.

He is also referring to the medical clinics here in the US that have to treat someone if they show up, whether that person has insurance or not. Although the medical care is not as good going to a premier clinic with your overpriced insurance, it is MUCH better than what is available in their native country.

Lastly, because they are not receiving a paycheck that is designated to them by way of social security number, date of birth or driver license number, they are not taxed. They are given cash at the end of the day, and it is all "under the table" so as not to draw attention. What they make in a month here is a year's salary back home.

 

[Neo Deist]

But they are breaking to law by entering this country illegally. When you became a cop didn't you swear to uphold the law? Is it much to ask police officers to arrest law breakers instead of trying to interpret the law?

I am not border patrol or INS. I have more important things to worry about (like solving murders). If I arrested everyone that broke a law, the entire population of the USA would be behind bars.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But they are breaking to law by entering this country illegally. When you became a cop didn't you swear to uphold the law? Is it much to ask police officers to arrest law breakers instead of trying to interpret the law?

Sure. But he can still interpret the law in his spare time and offer an opinion.

 

[columbus]

But they are breaking to law by entering this country illegally.

So are the people that hire them! What about prosecuting the board of directors at Manpower Inc.?
Tom

 

[suncowiam]

Not in and of itself.

So picture the scenario of organ transplant patients waiting for donor organs in order to live. Is it morally right for new patients to somehow cheat to circumvent this queue to have first access to those organs? No rights or wrongs, just every person for themselves in a world of limited resources?

 

[suncowiam]

That isn't what's going on here though.
It's more like there are 100 doors, 1 marked "legal" and 99 unmarked. The "legal" door has a years long line, but gets you benefits like documents. The other 99 just get you to a job, if you're willing to pay coyotes and brave the desert and stick to low paying jobs with no security. Lots of people will choose those doors because all they want is the job. They'll put up with the attendent crap, but they will get the job.
If we made 50 of those doors "legal" there wouldn't be so many people using the unmarked doors. And that would also require prosecution of the criminal employers. But it would give us the ability to monitor who gets in and what they do once here. It would also give us the ability to prioritize who gets in. I would much rather have people, and especially families, who intend to become part of our country. Put down roots and contribute something to society besides cheap labor.
Tom

I didn't quit understand all the door analogies.

Maybe I'm somewhat of a purist. Why even having laws if it's not going to be enforced or followed. This seriously undermines our country. If we don't agree with the laws then we can slowly change via the same process that initially set the laws. I can say that there are people that follow related immigration laws, are as in need of jobs, and have good stable families but they are getting screwed by folks that are breaking the laws.

 

[suncowiam]

Why is just prosecuting the US criminals who hire them too difficult? The fines would pay for the enforcement and nobody dies in the desert.
I'll tell you why I don't think that will happen. Because the illegals are so incredibly profitable.
Tom

I'm cool with this too.

 

[suncowiam]

To answer to OP, the wall is ridiculous. There's nothing smart about it without some automatic or manual monitoring and active prevention.

Trump sold people some real estate in the middle of nowhere. If people are willing to risk their lives through desert and smugglers, what could a wall by itself possibly do to deter them?

 

[columbus]

I didn't quit understand all the door analogies.

I was just pointing out that there is no queue really. The US will not give green cards to people that we will give jobs to. There is really not a line at all.

Maybe I'm somewhat of a purist. Why even having laws if it's not going to be enforced or followed. This seriously undermines our country. If we don't agree with the laws then we can slowly change via the same process that initially set the laws. I can say that there are people that follow related immigration laws, are as in need of jobs, and have good stable families but they are getting screwed by folks that are breaking the laws.

I agree. But here's the thing. There are two separate classes of criminals here. Poor people trying to get jobs and the people who hire them. The folks looking for work are committing a crime on the order of shoplifting a bottle of baby aspirin because they have a sick baby and no money. Corporations like Manpower and other big companies, and construction companies, etc., are breaking the law in a big way. They are driving up unemployment and inviting unregulated aliens into the country by giving them jobs. Prosecute them and the problems will be on their way to resolution by the end of the month. But they are very powerful people and don't want the problem resolved. They like having an underclass of cheap labor with no rights.
The "good stable families" are not getting screwed by other workers. It's the criminal employers who are screwing them.
Tom

 

[Neo Deist]

So, slightly different take on this, I hope. Can we try and avoid rehashing discussion on whether the Wall is a waste of money, or who is going to pay for it for a moment?

I am not sure if people are just not getting it, or if they actually believed Trump meant a real, physical wall. Trump's entire campaign message was catered to the middle class working American. He touched on some of their biggest fears, and what irks people the most as they struggle through day to day lives. The imagery of Hispanics coming here and taking jobs, driving up insurance costs, and abusing the system, struck a nerve with a lot of people.

Trump is not an idiot. The Wall was merely allegorical. It was a hammering point for part of his campaign. He knew good and well that the USA would not build a physical wall along our southern border, and he knew good and well Mexico could not be made to pay for it. The whole wall angle was rhetoric.

Just my two cents...

 

[suncowiam]

I was just pointing out that there is no queue really. The US will not give green cards to people that we will give jobs to. There is really not a line at all.

I agree. But here's the thing. There are two separate classes of criminals here. Poor people trying to get jobs and the people who hire them. The folks looking for work are committing a crime on the order of shoplifting a bottle of baby aspirin because they have a sick baby and no money. Corporations like Manpower and other big companies, and construction companies, etc., are breaking the law in a big way. They are driving up unemployment and inviting unregulated aliens into the country by giving them jobs. Prosecute them and the problems will be on their way to resolution by the end of the month. But they are very powerful people and don't want the problem resolved. They like having an underclass of cheap labor with no rights.
The "good stable families" are not getting screwed by other workers. It's the criminal employers who are screwing them.
Tom

To my knowledge, there is a line.

Green Card Processes and Procedures

Also, I'm a Vietnamese immigrant with tons of families and friends that have waited respectively for their own green cards. Much of this line and waiting is just processing status and requirements.

I'm fine if we prosecute the hiring organizations more so than the immigrants. I understand immigrants are from poor conditions. Again, I was one. But if you want to normalize this somehow then please understand that there are immigrants legally waiting to become citizens that are just as deserving of the opportunity of living in America.

 

[columbus]

But if you want to normalize this somehow then please understand that there are immigrants legally waiting to become citizens that are just as deserving of the opportunity of living in America.

I don't want to normalize this. I hate this. But I do see the fundamental problem as being the schizophrenic attitude of the USA. We will give people jobs by the million, but not green cards.
And the reason the Powers That Be won't fix it is because those workers are so profitable.
I don't see how Mexican workers prevent your relatives from getting the opportunity to emigrate here. Quite the opposite, immigration reform would allow much greater fairness by putting some thought and controls into the process. What we have now is essentially unregulated immigration, which totally works for the 1%. Your family, having to swim the Pacific, not so much.
Tom

 

[suncowiam]

I don't want to normalize this. I hate this. But I do see the fundamental problem as being the schizophrenic attitude of the USA. We will give people jobs by the million, but not green cards.
And the reason the Powers That Be won't fix it is because those workers are so profitable.
I don't see how Mexican workers prevent your relatives from getting the opportunity to emigrate here. Quite the opposite, immigration reform would allow much greater fairness by putting some thought and controls into the process. What we have now is essentially unregulated immigration, which totally works for the 1%. Your family, having to swim the Pacific, not so much.
Tom

I don't think you can just open the doors and not control the population. It would not be beneficial to any country especially to those still living here.

With limited resources, I don't think any government can sponsor an unlimited number of low income and low skilled immigrants. It has to be controlled for a balance of humanitarian efforts and stabilization of the economy.