The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[1robin]

You need to quote verse of Bible to support your claim "any man who claims to be without sin is a liar"

It won't help but what the heck.
English Standard Version (©2001)
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
New Living Translation (©2007)
If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

It does not include the Bible. Read the stories about Moses and Aaron who the rebuke was addressed to them, eventhough it was people who were transgressors.
The bible says, Noah and Job were sinless and perfect men who walked with God in all generations. It rejects your claim. As I gave you example, these Prophest are expression of their people, and Bible uses them to address the rebukes. The story of Noah getting drunk, likewise is an expression of the sin of His own people.

Nope, your instructed to claim this and when the Bible proves you wrong time after time you are forced to reinterpret scriptures in ways that have absolutely no justification. As the two verses I posted say. If anyone (including prophets) says they are not sinful they are liars. As the second implies anyone claiming that men were perfect makes God a liar. Now I have to add that making God into a liar is another thing your religion forces you to do. That is a long sad list.

I quoted you Baha'i scriptures, not Quran.

That is even worse. ​

Except I have shown you many times how their interpretations are wrong, and you have faild to prove my interpretations to be wrong.

There is not a single example of this.

You only make claimes with no proofs. You basically claim, my interpretations are not correct because you say so. How false! then why are we discussing then?

I guess if the Bible, theologians, textual critics, and commentators do not count then maybe not. I have never encountered a case of cognative dissonance this extreme. It is truly astounding.

What's the point?
So far you have failed to prove any sin or error about any Messengers including Muhammad.

I have quoted verses that specifically say they sinned. This is unbelievable. Up is down and cold is hot. What a tactic.

You think they are qualified because they agree with you think is ture. That's all. When it comes to discussions you cannot prove any of your points.

Nope I accept them because they have access to vastly more data and have spent their life dedicated to the effort of arriving at truth. However it is only necessary to read the bible to know you are in left field. One of my favorites has even held and read in it's language every known extant manuscript of the bible.

Ok, but, if you see the same things in another religion you take their fault, and do not accept "It was not practicle to stop then"
Basically, I am trying to show how biased you are.

How do you know you just made that up. The issue as it applies to other religions has not been discussed by me. Imaginary claims I have never made are poor straw men. It is not possible to even concieve of a bias so strong as to force someone to claim what you have. If it required the rejection and reinterpretation of every fact ever known to maintain your religion it would be done. It is really quite remarkable.

 

[al-amiyr]

Salaam Brother

Ask me any question to prepare yourself for our brotherly debate. In the meantime I will also ask you some prior preparatory questions. Here is one:
Do you still hold all of the Qur'aan to be a valid document to be followed today, or are there certain parts that has been annulled? Thanks

I would prefer if you could answer that question here because I would not like to begin the dialogue upon what you did not exactly tell me yourself.I want to quote directly from you.
After I have been completed with my presentation The Qur'aan Cosmological Model: A delineation of the Origin, Evolution and End of the Universe and The Qur'aan Lexicographical Model: The Remarkable Language Program Upon Which The Qur'aan Is Based. then I will be ready to begin our dialogue inshaa allaah.

Thanks

 

[Lady B]

I would prefer if you could answer that question here because I would not like to begin the dialogue upon what you did not exactly tell me yourself.I want to quote directly from you.
After I have been completed with my presentation The Qur'aan Cosmological Model: A delineation of the Origin, Evolution and End of the Universe and The Qur'aan Lexicographical Model: The Remarkable Language Program Upon Which The Qur'aan Is Based. then I will be ready to begin our dialogue inshaa allaah.

Thanks

al-amiyr who are you directing this question too?

 

[FearGod]

al-amiyr who are you directing this question too?

i think to InvestigateTruth.

 

[al-amiyr]

al-amiyr who are you directing this question too?

As FearGod said above 'InvestigateTruth'.

 

[Lady B]

As FearGod said above 'InvestigateTruth'.

thankyou both I am also waiting for this answer, In your opinion or knowledge of the bahai failth, Do they accept the complete Koran as God's word?

 

[al-amiyr]

al-amiyr who are you directing this question too?

thankyou both I am also waiting for this answer, In your opinion or knowledge of the bahai failth, Do they accept the complete Koran as God's word?

To be fair to the brother I would like him to answer it. I might just say something that does not echo what is in his heart.
I have studied much on the matter. You are most welcome to join us in this discussion. There you will be Lady A and can B whom you wish to B. After that we will C.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I do not mind questions at all. However you have many presuppositions we need to tackle first. Perhaps you should tell me what sinlessness is in your religion, and then what is righteousness. I believe there is a difference. The righteousness in he bible is imputed righteousness. Meaning it is nothing the man did or did not do to earn this, it is a gift from God. In the new testament Christians are called righteous also, does this mean we are sinless? Of course not, it means God has imputed to us what we did not deserve through Christ the righteous.

As for listing and analizing the sins of each prophet, I decline to do so in this thread, perhaps we can debate this topic on its own? we continue to take this mans thread off-topic and I tire from apoligizing lol

That's ok if you prefer to discuss that on its own.
We got into this discussion, because, 1robin claimed that Muhammad had sinned, but Jesus is the only one who is sinless. So, was just repudiating that the Messengers are sinless. I think you have read my discussions with him, and my responces.


As regards to yor question, about what is sinless and what is righteous according to Baha'i Faith, I would say it is exactly the same as the Bible.
Sin, according to scriptures is when someone does something against the will and commandments of God. Being righteous means acting according to the will and commandments of God. The same verse about Noah defines it; "He walked with God", this is the reason He was righteous. According to scriptures, it is not possible for someone to act opposit of what God asks, and still be called righteous, and be said "He walked with God".
Moreover according to Bible, there was a man who became free from the law of sin and death. That indicates, that it is possible to avoid sin completely.

 

[Lady B]

That's ok if you prefer to discuss that on its own.
We got into this discussion, because, 1robin claimed that Muhammad had sinned, but Jesus is the only one who is sinless. So, was just repudiating that the Messengers are sinless. I think you have read my discussions with him, and my responces.

Moreover according to Bible, there was a man who became free from the law of sin and death. That indicates, that it is possible to avoid sin completely.
As regards to yor question, about what is sinless and what is righteous according to Baha'i Faith, I would say it is exactly the same as the Bible.
Sin, according to scriptures is when someone does something against the will and commandments of God. Being righteous means acting according to the will and commandments of God. The same verse about Noah defines it; "He walked with God", this is the reason He was righteous. According to scriptures, it is not possible for someone to act opposit of what God asks, and still be called righteous, and be said "He walked with God".

and I am telling you the diference in our reasoning. righteousness in the bible is god-given not man earned. and does not mean that he was sinless. the bible attributes only one to be without sin and that is Christ.

 

[Lady B]

That's ok if you prefer to discuss that on its own.
We got into this discussion, because, 1robin claimed that Muhammad had sinned, but Jesus is the only one who is sinless. So, was just repudiating that the Messengers are sinless. I think you have read my discussions with him, and my responces.


As regards to yor question, about what is sinless and what is righteous according to Baha'i Faith, I would say it is exactly the same as the Bible.
Sin, according to scriptures is when someone does something against the will and commandments of God. Being righteous means acting according to the will and commandments of God. The same verse about Noah defines it; "He walked with God", this is the reason He was righteous. According to scriptures, it is not possible for someone to act opposit of what God asks, and still be called righteous, and be said "He walked with God".
Moreover according to Bible, there was a man who became free from the law of sin and death. That indicates, that it is possible to avoid sin completely.

reference please? All who are imputed the righteousness of Christ are free from the law of sin and death.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To be fair to the brother I would like him to answer it. I might just say something that does not echo what is in his heart.
I have studied much on the matter. You are most welcome to join us in this discussion. There you will be Lady A and can B whom you wish to B. After that we will C.

Well, I would like to keep the discussion within the subject of the thread as much as possible. So, basically if you would like to discuss regarding if Quran claims to be the final revelation, and the last Book of God, and the Last Laws from God, then I can discuss to show, there is no such a claim in Quran.
It is only a misunderstanding within the Muslim community, which mostly comes from the Muslim religious leaders who have used Hadithes, and an incorrect interpretation to make it appear as if Quran claims to be final book.
So, if indeed it is the truth of Quran that it claims to be the final revelation, one needs to show that this is a firmly established fact that: A- that there are explicit verses showing the finality of Quran, that can only mean finality B: It must be “irrefutable”.
Let me know if A and B are clear. Because that is important to know the approach for understanding what we are discussing about.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

and I am telling you the diference in our reasoning. righteousness in the bible is god-given not man earned. and does not mean that he was sinless. the bible attributes only one to be without sin and that is Christ.

Well, this is the reason, I asked you to show me the sins of Moses and Joseph if you want to prove your point. If you read my post for 1robin I have given the reason, why the Bible appears to reboke some prophets, and i gave the example of Jesus too. Offcourse you are welcome to believe what you like, but if you want show me your view is the truth, all you need to do is to refute my reasoning that I gave to 1robin. So far I have not seen any proofs from Bible that Only Jesus is sinless. And I see you are smart and logical, so, I suppose you know what I mean by refuting.

 

[al-amiyr]

Well, I would like to keep the discussion within the subject of the thread as much as possible. So, basically if you would like to discuss regarding if Quran claims to be the final revelation, and the last Book of God, and the Last Laws from God, then I can discuss to show, there is no such a claim in Quran.
It is only a misunderstanding within the Muslim community, which mostly comes from the Muslim religious leaders who have used Hadithes, and an incorrect interpretation to make it appear as if Quran claims to be final book.
So, if indeed it is the truth of Quran that it claims to be the final revelation, one needs to show that this is a firmly established fact that: A- that there are explicit verses showing the finality of Quran, that can only mean finality B: It must be “irrefutable”.
Let me know if A and B are clear. Because that is important to know the approach for understanding what we are discussing about.

I understand! You want to explain it in the proper context. Is that correct?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

reference please? All who are imputed the righteousness of Christ are free from the law of sin and death.

"because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2
If you recall, Jesus always said he was only saying the will and commands of the Father, not His own. So, this verse means, if people follow the teaching of christ, which came from the Father, they can avoid sins. But this is not limitted to command through Jesus, but through All Messengers of God who gave the teachings of the Father to people.

 

[Lady B]

"because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2
If you recall, Jesus always said he was only saying the will and commands of the Father, not His own. So, this verse means, if people follow the teaching of christ, which came from the Father, they can avoid sins. But this is not limitted to command through Jesus, but through All Messengers of God who gave the teachings of the Father to people.

No, you are incorrect, and you mis-use this verse completely. Paul is saying Christ has set us free from the consequenses of sin and has imputed on us his righteousness. all Christians are free from sin and death. we still sin but we will not pay the penalty for this sin which is hell and eternal death.

here is my verses to show all sin, and jesus alone did not sin. name one person in this earth who claimed for himself no sin. did any prophets ever claim it?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
2nd corinthians 5:11 :God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:9-19 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

and from Islamic sources:
Everyone, even the Prophets, is in need of the forgiveness of Allaah. Allaah has blessed His Prophets by forgiving their sins, and He has blessed our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as He said (interpretation of the meaning): “That Allaah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favour upon you, and guide you on the Straight Path.” [al-Fath 48:2]

 

[al-amiyr]

“That Allaah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favour upon you, and guide you on the Straight Path.” [al-Fath 48:2]

You are quoting correctly.

 

[Lady B]

You are quoting correctly.

why thankyou al-amyr can i have my cookie now?

 

[al-amiyr]

why thankyou al-amyr can i have my cookie now?

Check your mail box.

 

[Lady B]

Check your mail box.

your so sweet, but cookie is a joke, I didnt mean to beg for frubies lolol, when kids do a good thing they ask for cookies, so I was being childish hehehhe

 

[al-amiyr]

your so sweet, but cookie is a joke, I didnt mean to beg for frubies lolol, when kids do a good thing they ask for cookies, so I was being childish hehehhe

I was going to send you one for the good post. I will keep it safely for now.