The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

InvestigateTruth · Sep 17, 2012

Lady B said:
No, you are incorrect, and you mis-use this verse completely. Paul is saying Christ has set us free from the consequenses of sin and has imputed on us his righteousness. all Christians are free from sin and death. we still sin but we will not pay the penalty for this sin which is hell and eternal death.

here is my verses to show all sin, and jesus alone did not sin. name one person in this earth who claimed for himself no sin. did any prophets ever claim it?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
2nd corinthians 5:11 :God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:9-19 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Sorry, but non of the verses you are quoting, indicates Prophets comitted sins. They show those generations comitted sins, and offcourse, Jesus, a Prophet of God, was sinless, and was sent to them, to show them the right way for the people of that Age.

To show if a prophet was sinless, His own claim is not the proof, but His actions are. So, just show me some sins of Moses and Joseph to prove your points.
And if claim is acceptable to you, then Baha'u'llah did claim it.

and from Islamic sources:
Everyone, even the Prophets, is in need of the forgiveness of Allaah. Allaah has blessed His Prophets by forgiving their sins, and He has blessed our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as He said (interpretation of the meaning): “That Allaah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favour upon you, and guide you on the Straight Path.” [al-Fath 48:2]

The first part is only a comment, not part of the verse. This verse also does not include the prophets. It is talking about regular people.

To support your view, You need to show me a verse that actualy says, prophets are sinful.

If there was anything about sinfulness of prophets in the scriptures, I wouldn't ask you

InvestigateTruth · Sep 17, 2012

al-amiyr said:
I understand! You want to explain it in the proper context. Is that correct?

Well, InshaAllah if we ever start the discussion I can explain it. So far, in this thread, I have posted some verses of Quran, that can mean other Messengers and other Books from God is possible.
But to discuss that Quran is not the final Book, it is enough to show two things:

A) There are verses in the Quran that possibly mean other Messengers and Books can come.

B) There is no verse in Quran that with certainty proves Quran is the last revelation. Please note that Quran is a clear Book (Kitabun Mobin). So, if it wants to say there is no revelation ever,it would say it clearly, why use of Hadithes?

Now when I say with certainty and clear, let me give you an example from Baha'i Scriptures that with certainly shows no Messenger from God may come untill 1000 years after Baha'i Faith:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor....Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Baháulláh, Page 346

al-amiyr · Sep 17, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Well, InshaAllah if we ever start the discussion I can explain it. So far, in this thread, I have posted some verses of Quran, that can mean other Messengers and other Books from God is possible.
But to discuss that Quran is not the final Book, it is enough to show two things:

A) There are verses in the Quran that possibly mean other Messengers and Books can come.

B) There is no verse in Quran that with certainty proves Quran is the last revelation. Please note that Quran is a clear Book (Kitabun Mobin). So, if it wants to say there is no revelation ever,it would say it clearly, why use of Hadithes?

Now when I say with certainty and clear, let me give you an example from Baha'i Scriptures that with certainly shows no Messenger from God may come untill 1000 years after Baha'i Faith:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor....Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Baháulláh, Page 346

Abu-NaSr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan Al-Ghaaziy Al-Qurashiy Al-Amjadiy (c.1057 c.1134)

abuw naSr al_amiyr sulaymaan

was

one of the most extraordinary and exemplary men who ever lived.

He was a most gracious philanthropist,

a supreme commander,

and by the grace of ALLAAH(A*), a most successful man in everything he set out to do.

He was a great benefactor and promoter of knowledge and education

and above all

he was a man who, like his ancestors, loved and served The Lord

with all his heart, soul and mind.

To

the twenty-eight

generations of his learned descendants,

one son after the other,

over the next nine hundred years,

he was known as the father of help,

the man of good deeds, meritorious actions,

and

the shepherd of the flock of his future generations.

According to the family oral history, Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan was a direct descendant and inheritor of King Sulaymaan (Soloman), son of King Daawud (David) Kings of Judah through the line of Yuwsuf (Joseph) and Maryam (Mary), the mother of "Iysaa (Jesus).

It was said that he was the prophesied father (abu) of the Branch (naSr) which would bear fruit from the offshoot of Yassaa (Jessie), the father of King Daawud (David).

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan was also the twelfth direct descendant of Zayd, the son of "Aliy Zaynul_"aabidiyn (grandson of FaaTimah(P+), (daughter of the prophet Muhammad (S+) and Haydaan,the highborn captured princess of India.

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan was also regarded as one of the six Mu'lifiyn (Thousanders) who was to be born or because he was born at the dawn or rise of the next millenium.

It has been said that the seventh mu'allif (Thousander) would be a direct descendant of Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan.

The other Thousanders were Aadam (Adam (P+), Nuwh (Noah (P+), 'IbraaHiym (Abraham (P+), Daawud (David (P+) and"Iysaa (Jesus (P+) to whom Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan were all related genealogically.

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan, because of his family inheritance, his skillful business foresight and his spoils of war acquisitions became an immensely wealthy man. In fact he became one of the wealthiest individuals of his day. It has been estimated that his personal fixed property alone amounted to over one hundred square kilometers. His net worth today would amount to billions of dollars.

Despite his enormous wealth, Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan lived a remarkably simple life and was very rarely seen in public. It was his usual practice to spend most of his time in isolation worshipping his Lord. All who met him were struck by his simplicity and were sworn to uphold his hidden family identity.

One day, Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan, called for an appointed day of assembly of the tribal Elders, other prominent Leaders, Scholars and Learned men. He told them that the time had come for him to give up all his wealth and use it all for the lofty cause of his Lord. He told them that all the moneys and proceeds of the lands must all go for the upkeep of the school that he had created and build in Siysaawah.

After having stated all the conditions of the school which among others are that-

- it shall be a school that shall be open to all who wish to learn.

-it shall be a school in which all who wish to learn shall have the right to free education in it.

-it shall be a school in which all who wish to learn shall have the right to free food from it.

-and it shall be a school in which all who wish to learn shall have the right to free lodging in it.

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan stated that he had placed everything into the hands of Abul_muhsin Mullaa "Uthmaan Haamid

whom he said was the most upright and learned of his sons

and that he shall be responsible for the upkeep of the school and for the overseeing of the execution of all the stipulated conditions.

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan also stated that after Abul_muhsin Mullaa "Uthmaan Haamid had passed on, the school shall be placed in the charge of the most upright and learned of the sons of his sons and so forth. And if it were to happen that they should become degenerate then it shall be placed in the charge of the sons of his daughters and so forth. And if it were also to happen that they were to go from bad to worse then it shall go to any of the most upright and learned of his scattered descendants who took up the course to uphold this eternal foundation and endowment .And if they should die out then it shall go on to the daughters of his daughters .And if they should die out then it shall pass on to the nearest of the tribe and then to humanity.

In the end he prayed and sought refuge in The All_Mighty Creator ,Preserver and Destroyer, who sees to the end of time,

to protect his descendants from gradual corrosion and ultimate obliteration.

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan had everything written down and dated Wednesday, 23 Muharram 523A.H (corresponding to 23 January 1129).

Then signed it

Abu-Nasr Al-Amiyr Sulaymaan Al-Gaaziy Al-Qurashiy Al-Amjadiy (The poor man in need of The All_Mighty).

al-amiyr · Sep 17, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor....

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 346

Here is The Great Family of The Prophet. Many of whom were killed and crucified.

1

son of

1

alaa-ud-diyn -> muhammad <- effendi al-kaabiy al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1286 - 1375 ) / ( 1870 - 1956 )

son of

1

shaykh-ul-ilm shaykhu-l-islaam -> abd-ullaah abuw-bakr <- effendi

al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1229 - 1297) / ( 1814 - 1880 )

son of

1

mullaa -> umr <- effendi al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1192 - 1247 ) / ( 1778 - 1831 )

son of

1

Salaah-ud-diyn mullaa -> muSTafaa <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1157 - 1224 ) / ( 1744 - 1809 )

son of

1

mawlanaa baabaa piyr -> sulaymaan <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-'amjadiy

( 1136 - 1199 ) / ( 1723 - 1785 )

son of

1

mullaa -> muSTafaa <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - 1167 ) / ( - 1754 )

son of

mullaa -> ibraahiym <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - 1152 ) / ( - 1739 )

son of

1

amiyr -> sulaymaan<- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1068 - 1130 ) / ( 1657- 1718 )

son of

1

amiyr -> muhammad <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1045- 1110 ) / ( 1635 - 1698 )

son of

1

aDaD-ud-diyn -> abd-ullaah abiy-zayd -><- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 1012 - 1077 ) / ( 1603 - 1666 )

son of

1

izz-ud-diyn -> muhammad al-faDlu qaddasa sirrahu <-al_khushnaawiy al_qurashiy al_'amjadiy

( 976 - 1039 ) / ( 1568 - 1629 )

son of

1

amiyr -> abd-ullaah <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 937 - 1003 ) / ( 1530 - 1594 )

son of

1

zayn-ud-diyn mullaa -> ahmad <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 900 - 967 ) / ( 1494 - 1559 )

son of

1

mullaa abd- ul- haq -> sulaymaan <- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 871 - 929 ) / ( 1466 - 1523 )

son of

1

abu-sulaymaan -><- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( 841 - 882 ) / ( 1437 - 1477 )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb DhuHuwr-ud-diyn-><- al-khushnaawiy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - c.850 ) / ( ???? - c.1446 )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-muHaymin -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ullaah -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ur-razzaaq -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-us-samiy -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-u llaah -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-waliyy -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ullaah -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( ???? - ???? ) / ( ???? - ???? )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb buTuwn-ud-diyn -><- <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( c.541 - ???? ) / (c.1146 - ???? )

son of

1

abuw-l-muhsin mullaa -> uthmaan haamid <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( c. 483 - c.555 ) / (c. 1090 - c.1160 )

son of

1

abuw-naSr al-amiyr -> sulaymaan <-al-ghaaziy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( c. 459 - c.528 ) / ( c.1057 - c.1134 )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb iyqaaDh-ud-diyn -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-hakiym -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ullaah -><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-baSiyr-><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ullaah-><-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-khabiyr-> <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Saahibu-l- ghayb abd-ul-baatin -> <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

mawlanaa -> ahmad al-khafiy<-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

abd-ul-majiyd -> muhammad abd-ullaah <- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

abd-u-l-hamiyd al-khalaf-> abuw abd-ullaah'ahmad al-mukhtafiy <- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

(157 - ????) / (773 -???? )

son of

1

abd-uS-Samad as-salaf-> iysaa<- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

(???? -166 ) / (???? -783)

son of

1

'amiyr-ul-mujaahidiyn haliyfu-l-qur'aan -> zaydu-al-shahiyd <- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

'amiyr-uS-Saabiriyn zaynu-l-aabidiyn -> aliy as-sajjaad <- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

amiyr-ush-shuhadaa imaam -> husayn <- al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

khaliyfatullaah amiyr-ul-mu’miniyn -> aliy <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

abuw Taalib -> imraan <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

abd-l-muTTalib ->shayba <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

( - ) / ( - )

son of

1

Haashim -> amru-l-ulaa <-al-qurashiy al-amjadiy

al-amiyr · Sep 17, 2012

Here is The Great Family of The Prophet. Many of whom were killed and crucified.

continued

During the last ten years members of The Turkish Government (including Prime Minister Erdogan and Foreign Minister Davutoglu) came to South Africa.One of the first things they requested was to go to the grave of The Shaykh of Knowledge As_sayyid Abdullaah Abu Bakr Effendi al-khushnaawiy al-Qurashiy al-Amjadiy (1814-1880). This was reported in both the South African and Turkish Media.The Shaykh of Knowledge is buried on the world famous Signal Hill that is the abdomen part of a mountain shaped in the form of a crouching lion which lies next to The World Renowned Table Mountain (now voted by humanity and declared a seventh wonder of the world and said to be the most wondrous mountain in the world). The history of The Shaykh of Knowledge, his ancestry and his coming to South Africa has been described by historians and other writers amazing and crying out to be written. It all started like this when the Muslims of The Colony of The Cape of Good Hope wrote a letter to the Governor as follows.

A unique historical event
On 16 April 1862
The Muslims of The Colony of The Cape of Good Hope
Cape Town
South Africa
wrote a letter to the Governor as follows.
"As it is well known, 85 years ago some of Javenese islands fell into the hands of
The Dutch Government.
Our fathers were all tied up in chains, enslaved and brought here.
We were afflicted with suffering and problems;
the Honourable British Empire set us free from the slavery of the previous government
and gave us our liberty.
For that, we thank the empire for it's help and grace, and in case of necessity,
it is incumbent upon us to sacrifice ourselves for it's cause.
We once again express our thanks and gratitude.
It is obvious that each nation has to know and apply it's religion and way of life and practice.
But
we forgot our language of origin, the language of Javenese,
the books and treatises are all written in that language and therefore
we obviously need a teacher to read and teach them.
Since the situation is like this
it is requested to bring
a scholar-teacher from a Muslim country
in order to teach and train us."

16 Shawwaal 1278 (16 April 1862)
Signature
Muslim people
Cape of Good Hope

Omar Lutfi " A travelogue of my journey to The Cape of Good hope. p.7.
translated by Yusuf Kavakci

The Governor replied to the Muslims that it was not an easy matter for him and it had to be referred to Her Majesty Queen Victoria for Approval. ... The Governor's letter with the petition of the Muslims arrived at Queen Victoria's Government and it was discussed in parliament and recommendations were made. They then sent The letter to The Khalif of The Sunni World Sultan Abdul Aziz and The High Council of Islamic Affairs..................... It was Decided that the best person for the undertaking would be The Shaykh of Knowledge and The Shaykh of Islaam Abu Bakr Effendi(as he is mostly known). On 01 October 1862 The Shaykh of Knowledge left The Ottoman Islamic Khilafat in a ship from Istanbul bound for The Western World (it has been said that it was the first time in history that such an event took place between a Muslim government and a Christian one).
The Shaykh of Knowledge arrived in London on the 15 October 1862 and later at the palace of Queen Victoria where he met Lord Chamberlain who was waiting for his arrival. After spending two months there he left on 01 December 1862 for The Colony of the Cape of Good Hope, Cape Town, South Africa.
The Shaykh of Knowledge arrived in Cape Town in the early morning of the 13th of January 1863 where soon all the prominent Imams of the Muslims came to welcome him. A photograph of the Shaykh with all the prominent Muslims leaders was taken and believed to be the oldest photograph of Muslims in South Africa if not its oldest dated in the country. The Shaykh of Knowledge did not wait long and within one month he set up a school of higher learning and had over 300 students out of a population of 17000. The first reform he did was to put the women back into hijaab and then selected among the most intelligent ones among his students whom he then trained as teachers.He opened the first school of hifz and Arabic in South Africa as well as the first Muslim girls school and so forth. He trained many learned men and set up schools in many parts of Southern Africa. All this while he was learning to master the local language and English. The Shaykh also wrote the first book in the local language(354 pages) which was a mixture of Dutch and a smack of other languages which became Afrikaans, an Official language of South Africa. After the death of The Sultan and Khaliyf Abdul-Aziz, the Shaykh went back to Istanbul (1876) and one of the first things the new Sultan(Khalif Sultan Abdul-Hamid) did was to sign the printing of his book called The Explanation of the Diyn(Bayaanuddiyn). 1500 copies of the book was printed and it was translated in 1960 into English by a Dutch Scholar.It is said The Shaykh of Knowledge had more than 10 000 students all over the world. (Including Muhammad Dollie who went to England and found the first or one of the first Masjids there).
The Shaykh was born in Shahrizur Iraq in 1814 and started his education under his father aged two and had memorized the Quran by six. He studied first in the school set up in 523 Hijra or 1129 ACE. by his 25th ancestor known as abuw naSr al-amiyr sulaymaan al-ghaaziy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy. All the ancestors of the Shaykh were great scholars and many were advisers to those who had ruled as Khaliyfs of the Muslims . The family always lived and kept a low profile so as not to make known their full identity. As so many of the forefathers were killed beheaded and crucified. They were the secret family who went into hiding of amiyr Zayd ibn Ali ( son of Imam Zaynul Abidiyn son of amiyr Husayn grandson of the Prophet (S+).
Zayd ibn Ali was killed ,beheaded and crucified in a battle similar to the battle of Badr by the Umayyad forces.His body (skeleton) remained on the cross naked for four years and when the next Umayyad Khaliyf took over, he ordered that the skeleton be taken down burnt and then scattered to the wind over the Euphrates River. Amiyr Zayd ibn Ali's son yahyaa then took up the imaamat after him and was also killed , beheaded and crucified and his body remained on the cross for six years... (then imaam Ja'far aS-Saadiq handed it over to muhammad nafsuzzakiyyah and his brother Ibraahiym) muhammad was also killed ,beheaded and crucified. Then Ibraahiym took it up and he too was killed , beheaded and crucified. Like that the this branch (or stem of the Haashemites of Ahlul-bayt were despised by the people.Then the standard of imaamat and amiyrship passed on to "iysaa ibn Zayd ibn Ali(the forth son of Zayd ibn Ali). All over the world the government pursued Imaam amiyr "iysaa. After imaam amiyr "iysaa his son imaam amiyr ahmad took up the standard and went into hiding. He is known to history as ahmad al-mukhtafiy(the hidden). Then he fled to the land of Khashnaw(at sisawa in Iraq among the Kurds) and there he and his descendants kept a low profile and tried to attract no attention.It has also been reported that the ancestors of the Khashnaaw was give a ring by imaam zaynul Aabidiyn to rule over the territory of Khashnaaw. About 300 years later the family again surfaced when the twelfth descendant of Zayd ibn Ali arose by the name of the above mentioned abuw naSr al-amiyr sulaymaan al-ghaaziy al-qurashiy al-amjadiy and he founded his school.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 18, 2012

al-amiyr, how does any of your posts above related to our discussion?

Lady B · Sep 18, 2012

He is getting there.....

al-amiyr · Sep 18, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
al-amiyr, how does any of your posts above related to our discussion?
Now when I say with certainty and clear, let me give you an example from Baha'i Scriptures that with certainly shows no Messenger from God may come untill 1000 years after Baha'i Faith:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor....Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise."

What you said above. There I presented you with the greatest family line of scholars in the history of humanity. The greatest of the Family of Muhammad. It is written that out of this family shall come the one all the world is waiting for. I shall not discuss this now, We can debate it soon inshaa allaah.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 18, 2012

al-amiyr said:
What you said above. There I presented you with the greatest family line of scholars in the history of humanity. The greatest of the Family of Muhammad. It is written that out of this family shall come the one all the world is waiting for. I shall not discuss this now, We can debate it soon inshaa allaah.

Well, I am not discussing the Baha'i Scripture, as that won't be related to this thread There are other threads for it, which i had made before. In this thread I am discussing your claim that according to Quran, the revelation of Muhammad is the final.

al-amiyr · Sep 18, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Well, I am not discussing the Baha'i Scripture, as that won't be related to this thread There are other threads for it, which i had made before. In this thread I am discussing your claim that according to Quran, the revelation of Muhammad is the final.

A thread shall be made for it. That matter shall be discussed in detail. As I said before after I have completed the two threads to a point of comprehension we can begin inshaa allaah. I am now busy with the designs of the drawings of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model. Shukran (Thanks)

al-amiyr · Sep 18, 2012

Lady B said:
He is getting there.....

Right as always. :facepalm:

Satyamavejayanti · Sep 18, 2012

I don't think Muhammad was the greatest man, he may be in Islam but not for the rest of the world.

What has he contributed to the world that has benefited to entire humanity?

Being such a great ruler as you say, did he indulge in such things as Child Marriage, prostitution, theft, violence, hatred, rape?

Did he give something to the world that has made possible the many great scientific achievements we have to date?

Did he have anything intellectual to say that can be considered unbiased in all his teachings?

Lady B · Sep 18, 2012

Satyamavejayanti said:
I don't think Muhammad was the greatest man, he may be in Islam but not for the rest of the world.

What has he contributed to the world that has benefited to entire humanity?

Being such a great ruler as you say, did he indulge in such things as Child Marriage, prostitution, theft, violence, hatred, rape?

Did he give something to the world that has made possible the many great scientific achievements we have to date?

Did he have anything intellectual to say that can be considered unbiased in all his teachings?

The OP did change his title and is not claiming He was the greatest for all. I really think we should give Islam a break as far as associating Mohammad with evil at every turn. Yes he had a controversial marriage, so be it. He had many followers and in his time it was not a mark on his name or character. Aisha also stayed with him until his death and wrote lovely things of him, so why do we all use this constantly? I am not Muslim, but I have really studied the life of Mohammad and even if I don't agree in all his teachings , namely the ones contrary to scripture,I really can't say he was a man who did not love God. As far as your other allegations rape murder theft, you watch too many movies. Except for the rape which I see nowhere in his life, theft and hatred and death are part of war. We have much of this in the bible as well, and it happens in all wars. I really wish that when we argue or debate in religions we don't use our presuppositions and actually argue the true issues and problems or stumbling blocks in any religion. This will help us to learn and help them to answer. no one should have to defend a misconception .
Just sayin

....

InvestigateTruth · Sep 18, 2012

al-amiyr said:
A thread shall be made for it. That matter shall be discussed in detail. As I said before after I have completed the two threads to a point of comprehension we can begin inshaa allaah. I am now busy with the designs of the drawings of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model. Shukran (Thanks)

Ok, that's fine.
Ahsant! (Good Job!)

InvestigateTruth · Sep 18, 2012

Lady B said:
I am not Muslim, but I have really studied the life of Mohammad and even if I don't agree in all his teachings , namely the ones contrary to scripture....

Which of the teachings of Muhammad is contrary to the scripture?

Lady B · Sep 18, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Which of the teachings of Muhammad is contrary to the scripture?

Well that is easy... Jesus ! The Jesus in the Quoran is not the Jesus in the bible. We do not believe he was only a prophet, we believe as he claimed and as God claimed him, He was the only begotten son of God. In him were all things created and for him. We absolutely 100% disagree, in fact if we could agree in this one thing then all other differences would be meaningless.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 18, 2012

Lady B said:
Well that is easy... Jesus ! The Jesus in the Quoran is not the Jesus in the bible.

Please support your claim based on Bible and Quran.

We do not believe he was only a prophet,

The Bible says Jesus was a Prophet:

For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country. John 4:44

I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

He was the only begotten son of God.

This means Jesus was the only one in His Time who had received God. Other prophets are also sons of God in their own time:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12

This is a spiritual child of God, not physical. So, no contradiction with Quran.

In him were all things created and for him.

This is referring to the reality of Christ who is the spirit of God who always existed. From Quran:

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. Quran 21:91

We absolutely 100% disagree, in fact if we could agree in this one thing then all other differences would be meaningless.

I dont know how you disagree, when both Quran and the Bible agree 100%.

Lady B · Sep 18, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Please support your claim based on Bible and Quran.

The Bible says Jesus was a Prophet:

For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country. John 4:44

I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

This means Jesus was the only one in His Time who had received God. Other prophets are also sons of God in their own time:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12

This is a spiritual child of God, not physical. So, no contradiction with Quran.

This is referring to the reality of Christ who is the spirit of God who always existed. From Quran:

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. Quran 21:91

I dont know how you disagree, when both Quran and the Bible agree 100%.

In all due respect....
Perhaps you should read both the Bible and the Quoran before making these false assumptions. You seem to interpret scripture from a bias point of view, not as it is written or even interpreted by any Bible scholar. You do the same with the Quoran, bend it to what suits you. No matter what verses we give you to support our defense you twist and bend them to your liking. This does not prove your side, It proves you do not understand the word of God. I do not go to your books and attempt to change them to fit my beliefs, I do not go to the Quoran and change their meanings to fit my beliefs. You have asked us constantly to prove our scriptures say what we know them to say, well excuse me, we don't need to do this for you or anyone,God has given his word and if we choose to listen and believe then we do so.If not then walk away.
You can not possibly try to prove to me that my scriptures say what your scriptures need them to say. You can't show me Quoranic verses to support your view. To me it is ridiculous! It is plainly obvious Islam differs from The Bible, or wouldn't we be all one religion? Your religion uses parts of ours and parts of Islam and I am not sure what else and sure you must need both of ours to agree to allow yours to fit in...It Just doesn't

I do not mean to come across as angry but really you are insulting every Christian and every Muslim in your claim that our religion totally agrees with each other. Try researching, studying and leave alone these false claims you have.

When someone gives you a verse from their scriptures, don't tell them they are wrong and you are right in your interpretation, that is absurd that you will know more then people who study and absorb their own religion. This is not how rational debates are done. Perhaps we are not 100% accurate on all God's word, you however dismiss every verse we give and interpret it your own way.and demand more proof because ours isn't good enough, well you simply haven't proven a thing to anyone I have seen you debate with, if it is your claim that Mohammad was not the last prophet, prove it. If it is your claim that prophets never sinned, prove it. Don't prove it twisting our scriptures, find your way rationally, knowledgeably and for God's sakes respectably.

al-amiyr · Sep 19, 2012

Lady B said:
In all due respect....
Perhaps you should read both the Bible and the Quoran before making these false assumptions. You seem to interpret scripture from a bias point of view, not as it is written or even interpreted by any Bible scholar. You do the same with the Quoran, bend it to what suits you. No matter what verses we give you to support our defense you twist and bend them to your liking. This does not prove your side, It proves you do not understand the word of God. I do not go to your books and attempt to change them to fit my beliefs, I do not go to the Quoran and change their meanings to fit my beliefs. You have asked us constantly to prove our scriptures say what we know them to say, well excuse me, we don't need to do this for you or anyone,God has given his word and if we choose to listen and believe then we do so.If not then walk away.
You can not possibly try to prove to me that my scriptures say what your scriptures need them to say. You can't show me Quoranic verses to support your view. To me it is ridiculous! It is plainly obvious Islam differs from The Bible, or wouldn't we be all one religion? Your religion uses parts of ours and parts of Islam and I am not sure what else and sure you must need both of ours to agree to allow yours to fit in...It Just doesn't

I do not mean to come across as angry but really you are insulting every Christian and every Muslim in your claim that our religion totally agrees with each other. Try researching, studying and leave alone these false claims you have.

When someone gives you a verse from their scriptures, don't tell them they are wrong and you are right in your interpretation, that is absurd that you will know more then people who study and absorb their own religion. This is not how rational debates are done. Perhaps we are not 100% accurate on all God's word, you however dismiss every verse we give and interpret it your own way.and demand more proof because ours isn't good enough, well you simply haven't proven a thing to anyone I have seen you debate with, if it is your claim that Mohammad was not the last prophet, prove it. If it is your claim that prophets never sinned, prove it. Don't prove it twisting our scriptures, find your way rationally, knowledgeably and for God's sakes respectably.

First of all I have great respect for all your "In all due respect....".
I think you both made some valid points. Continue the debate.I would like to hear some more.

loverOfTruth · Sep 19, 2012

1robin said:
Your premise in no way justifies your conclusion. You both have similar names, that has nothing to do with any claims I made. The fact you say it does is intellectually dishonest and desperate.

Sorry I got carried away - My apology. But I couldn't help it seeing the repeated baseless falsehood and fabrication that you preach even after being shown the truth/proof.

1robin said:
I do not accept Islam's criteria on what source is or isn't acceptable. It changes everyday and seems to be arbitrarily decided based on if they are convenient or not.

On the contrary, we have our standards which are universally known - the Qur'an and the Sahih Hadith. It is a sign of extreme desperation on your part after failing to prove any of your fabrication/falsehood from Islam's primary scripture Qur'an and then even failing to show something from Sahih Hadith that you cry foul to allow you to use other sources. On the other hand, Muslims only stick to the Bible(the primary scripture) when discussing/debating Christian issues.

1robin said:
Ragardless of whatever you were instructed to think the bible is the most textually attested book in antiquity by many times over. It contains at most 5% error, of which only 1% is meaningfull. This can actually be checked very easily using software available today.

I agree that when a student gets 95 out of 100, it is praiseworthy on his part to admit the shortcomings and I admire some of the Christian scholars for that. However, it is not right for that same student to blame the one who got 100 out of 100. In fact, it is reprehensible for that same student to go and attack the student who got 100 with baseless, false accusations.

In your view, 5% margin of error might be acceptable from God Almighty. To us, it is not. God (Almighty) simply does not make mistakes.

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah(God)," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (Al Qur'an 2:79)

Finally, that is why it says in the Qur'an : "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah(God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy." (Qur'an 4:82) That is the ultimate litmus test, if the whole book is from God, it shouldn't have any discrepancies.

1robin said:
Unlike the Quran we had no Uthman that chose a Quran he liked and burned the rest. Unlike the Quran we don't have Muhammad's wife saying she knows of verses that were lost. Unlike the Quran we have multiple independant contemporary accounts. Islam has a single questionable witness. Unlike the Quran the people that memorized the bible were not killed before they recorded what they knew. Unlike the Quran's one perspective, the bible has 40 plus authors who maintained a perfect harmony over more than 1500 years. Unlike the Quran we know of and are honest enough to admit the few errors it has and they are all notated in every modern bible, instead of falsely claiming it perfect. Unlike the Quran the greatest expert on evidence in human history (Simon Greenleaf) said the Bible meets every historical and legal standard used to determine reliability. In no category what so ever does the Quran even begin to compare to the bible's reliability.

Regardless of what you claim - Bible's authors are unknown and written way after the actual events. You call that reliable ? On the other hand, we have the Qur'anic verses written down at the time of Prophet(pbuh) and not to mention the checks and balance of memorization + writing. You must be out of your mind to compare the historic authenticity of the Qur'an to the Bible. Let alone the original language they were written it.

Finally, you should talk about reliability and authenticity based on reality and not just theory. The fact that the companions of the Prophet(pbuh) (Allah be pleased with them all) spread out across the lands after his death – and hundreds of thousands entered Islam through them in different places and those people in turn propagated the Qur'an as they learned from the companions and yet anywhere in the world you go today, you still have the same exact Qur'an (in Arabic ofcourse) - that in itself is a strong proof of the preservation of the Qur'an. Can you say the same for the Bible ?

The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

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