The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[FearGod]

The challenge is silly and has no measurable way to identify success. However I don't want gloating over false victories. By the way I notice you dismissed all of my challenges. If you will clarify some standard by which this will be judged and allow a counter challenge then I will participate in this pointless challenge. By the way Shakespear's works are very respected as works of superb literature doesn't make his stories true.

i thought it'll be very easy for you to compete such verses made by an ordinary person lived before 1400 years ago.

 

[1robin]

i thought it'll be very easy for you to compete such verses made by an ordinary person lived before 1400 years ago.

Not with a vague and arbitrary standard which you seem to not be willing to even provide. I have seen this challenge dominated many times and it always ends up with the Muslim inventing some criteria that has no rational basis and then asserting that it didn't measure up. It is the same manner of inconsistent and illogical methods used in Islam apolagetics. Deny sources, create meaningless tests, vague requirements, double standards, and conclusions that do not follow the premise. Either give specific standards for this pointless exercise or I give up on it. By the way still not a single challenge I made has been addressed.

 

[FearGod]

Not with a vague and arbitrary standard which you seem to not be willing to even provide. I have seen this challenge dominated many times and it always ends up with the Muslim inventing some criteria that has no rational basis and then asserting that it didn't measure up. It is the same manner of inconsistent and illogical methods used in Islam apolagetics. Deny sources, create meaningless tests, vague requirements, double standards, and conclusions that do not follow the premise. Either give specific standards for this pointless exercise or I give up on it. By the way still not a single challenge I made has been addressed.

i don't know why you are worried,just let us give it a try.

Muslims claim that no one on earth can bring a better verses than what have been sent by god,i'll not argue with you,i just want to see what a better verse you can bring and also hope the others will share you in bringing a better verses and i promise i'll judge it only to myself to compare yours with the quran,nothing to worry about,you won't lose money.

And eventhough the challenge in the quran was for arabic language,but i'll choose some verses for the challenge to be in the english language.

 

[Lady B]

LadyB, I will make a reply to this in here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru.../136643-signs-end-bahai-view.html#post3091164

Is that allowed? I really did not want to go to another thread and now I can't even find it.You probably could have asked me

 

[Lady B]

i don't know why you are worried,just let us give it a try.

Muslims claim that no one on earth can bring a better verses than what have been sent by god,i'll not argue with you,i just want to see what a better verse you can bring and also hope the others will share you in bringing a better verses and i promise i'll judge it only to myself to compare yours with the quran,nothing to worry about,you won't lose money.

And eventhough the challenge in the quran was for arabic language,but i'll choose some verses for the challenge to be in the english language.

What are the perimeters? will this be judged/compared on factual content, eloquence,poetry,or all of the above? or more?
No I am not excepting the challenge I am just tryong to see what the challenge is exactly

 

[FearGod]

What are the perimeters? will this be judged/compared on factual content, eloquence,poetry,or all of the above? or more?
No I am not excepting the challenge I am just tryong to see what the challenge is exactly

I'll start with a very simple verse which describe a natural phenomenon,and the first challenge is to describe the phenomenon better than the verse.

it should be as short as the quranic verse,but describe better the phenomenon.

No conditions,no judgement,so lets play and try.

 

[Lady B]

I'll start with a very simple verse which describe a natural phenomenon,and the first challenge is to describe the phenomenon better than the verse.

it should be as short as the quranic verse,but describe better the phenomenon.

No conditions,no judgement,so lets play and try.

not meeeeeeeee noway ! I am no challenge in this trust me, I use spell check to write my name

 

[FearGod]

not meeeeeeeee noway ! I am no challenge in this trust me, I use spell check to write my name

Lol,nice joke .

 

[1robin]

i don't know why you are worried,just let us give it a try.

Muslims claim that no one on earth can bring a better verses than what have been sent by god,i'll not argue with you,i just want to see what a better verse you can bring and also hope the others will share you in bringing a better verses and i promise i'll judge it only to myself to compare yours with the quran,nothing to worry about,you won't lose money.

And eventhough the challenge in the quran was for arabic language,but i'll choose some verses for the challenge to be in the english language.

Better is so vague as to be completely useless. You must give some specific criteria before I would bother. What verse are eligable? Can I pick any. I stink at literature and grammer. However I can straighten out much of his false theology and history. In what way is this determined? Why if seccessfull or not is this in any way meaningfull. Shakespear is beautiful but isn't true. Also are you ever going to even attempt one of my challenges?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear Lover of Truth,
I actually accept your responses and won't even argue one at this time.
Just one thing....
Could you be more clear on how I can know which is a Suhih Hadith and which is not? for example: Abu Bakr yes, Aisha's letters no? Can you explain to me in a rational manner as I see you are so capable, why there is many Hadith's you (your branch) dismiss while others ( other branches of Islam ) Hold to them?

Really I would like a list of sorts of all the good bad and ugly, so that I can be sure they won't be dismissed in debates and discussions. I Trust you in this because I find you to be skilled in your own religion above many I have debated in the past. I am not asking for a time consuming complicated list, Just the basics If you may

Sorry for the late reply Lady B. Soo much has happened since I was gone - I had hard time finding the entry where I left off

I'll try to answer your questions regarding Sahih(meaning authentic) Hadith. However, I would add a disclaimer that I am no scholar of Islam, just a layman.

Let me first clarify one thing - it is not about who's more reliable Abu Bakr or Ayesha(may Allah be pleased with them both) at all. All of the well known companions of the Prophet(pbuh) are trustworthy and reliable. However, neither of them came to me or you directly and told us that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said this or that, right ? So the reliability issue is on the people who informed us about what they said about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Let me give a bit more detail.

"A hadith is a saying of Muhammad or a report about something he did. Over time, during the first few centuries of Islam, it became obvious that many so-called hadith were in fact spurious sayings that had been fabricated for various motives, at best to encourage believers to act righteously and at worse to corrupt believers' understanding of Islam and to lead them astray.
...
While the early collections of hadith often contained hadith that were of questionable origin, gradually collections of authenticated hadith called sahih (lit. true, correct) were compiled. Such collections were made possible by the development of the science of hadith criticism, a science at the basis of which was a critical analysis of the chain of (oral) transmission (isnad) of the hadith going all the way back to Muhammad.The two most highly respected collections of hadith are the authenticated collections the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. (Sahih literally means "correct, true, valid, or sound.") In addition to these, four other collections came to be well-respected, although not to the degree of Bukhari and Muslim's sahih collections. These four other collections are the Sunan of Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and Abu Da'ud." [1]

So normally if you rely on Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, it should be authentic. However, you have to remember that, for example, Imam Bukhari collected more than 100,000 hadiths and then kept only 7000+ in his Sahih collections out of which only 20 or so some Islamic scholars say are questionable. But they don't just say it is questionable out of the whim - they only do so if they didn't agree with the authenticity of the chain of narration of the Hadith listed in Bukhari.

Here's a glimpse of what is involved in deciding if a Hadith is authentic or not:
*Unbroken chain of narrators going all the way back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* "Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating,"[2]. For example, if X said he heard/got the narration from Y and it was found out that they were not contemporary and could have never met - this narrator won't be considered trustworthy.
* "to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited."[2]
* "Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them." [2]

So as you can see there's a lot involved in determining if a Hadith is Sahih or not. Another basic rule for checking authenticity is that hadith should not contradict what is said in the Qur'an.

Just a side note : often times people who want to attack Islam would quote stuff from known fabricated Hadiths, or quote partial Hadiths, or quote weak Hadiths(with broken chain or unreliable narrators in the chain), or quote from some sources which were written before Bukhari or Muslim went through the science of verifying the chain of narrators to discard the unauthentic ones.

Hope this helps.

References:
[1]http://islam.uga.edu/hadith.html
[2]http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html

 

[1robin]

I'll start with a very simple verse which describe a natural phenomenon,and the first challenge is to describe the phenomenon better than the verse.

it should be as short as the quranic verse,but describe better the phenomenon.

No conditions,no judgement,so lets play and try.

Why is shorter better? Why do you get to chose the verse? See what I mean. You are just making up arbitrary requirements that have no justification. However bring it on anyway, as I am weary of this.

 

[FearGod]

Why is shorter better? Why do you get to chose the verse? See what I mean. You are just making up arbitrary requirements that have no justification. However bring it on anyway, as I am weary of this.

i am really happy that you had accepted to play the "verse challenge".

The verse describing the day night phenomenon.

The changing of day and night as we know it happening due to the earth movement around itself.

The phenomenon described perfectly with few words hope you can bring a better verse than it,my best wishes 1robin.

The verse is saying : Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (24:44)

(24:44)

Check for the meanings of

and compare it to the day and night phenomenon

 

[1robin]

i am really happy that you had accepted to play the "verse challenge".

The verse describing the day night phenomenon.

The changing of day and night as we know it happening due to the earth movement around itself.

The phenomenon described perfectly with few words hope you can bring a better verse than it,my best wishes 1robin.

The verse is saying : Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (24:44)

(24:44)

Check for the meanings of

and compare it to the day and night phenomenon

What a strange verse to pick. I assume that flipping must be the closest word in English for whatever Arabic word (or another cultures word said to be Arabic) was originally used. Flipping is in no way an accurate or applicable description of what is known about the Earth and it's revolutions.
flippingpresent participle of flip (Verb)



Verb:

• Turn over or cause to turn over with a sudden sharp movement: "the yacht was flipped by a huge wave".
• Move, push, or throw (something) with a sudden sharp movement: "she flipped a few coins on to the bar".

First there is no up or down in space to orient any type of flipping as we know it to. Second flipping implies a sudden change in orientation the Earth is revolving at a consistent rate has no moment that it is flipped. Third the change from night to day is also gradual and consistent. Fourth and the most important, the day and night are not revolving nor flipping even if you can stick that word in there somehow. The Earth is. Fifth there is no lesson in day and night. It just is.

Therefore: Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see.

Should have been: God declared and initiated the rotation of the Earth within the Heavens; thereby night and day have their form and delineation. Verily, this is a work of the almighty.

I do not know about better but it is simpler, descriptive, and more accurate.

I think any of these are more accurate and just as "good"
New Living Translation (©2007)
And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness.
Young's Literal Translation
And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary -- and the stars -- for the rule of the night, and God giveth them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth and to rule over day and over night, and to make a separation between the light and the darkness; and God seeth that it is good
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years
Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

You never did say why you got to pick the verse or why shorter was better?

 

[FearGod]

What a strange verse to pick. I assume that flipping must be the closest word in English for whatever Arabic word (or another cultures word said to be Arabic) was originally used. Flipping is in no way an accurate or applicable description of what is known about the Earth and it's revolutions.
flippingpresent participle of flip (Verb)






Verb:

• Turn over or cause to turn over with a sudden sharp movement: "the yacht was flipped by a huge wave".
• Move, push, or throw (something) with a sudden sharp movement: "she flipped a few coins on to the bar".

First there is no up or down in space to orient any type of flipping as we know it to. Second flipping implies a sudden change in orientation the Earth is revolving at a consistent rate has no moment that it is flipped. Third the change from night to day is also gradual and consistent. Fourth and the most important, the day and night are not revolving nor flipping even if you can stick that word in there somehow. The Earth is. Fifth there is no lesson in day and night. It just is.

Therefore: Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see.

Should have been: God declared and initiated the rotation of the Earth within the Heavens; thereby night and day have their form and delineation. Verily, this is a work of the almighty.

I do not know about better but it is simpler, descriptive, and more accurate.

I think any of these are more accurate and just as "good"
New Living Translation (©2007)
And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness.
Young's Literal Translation
And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary -- and the stars -- for the rule of the night, and God giveth them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth and to rule over day and over night, and to make a separation between the light and the darkness; and God seeth that it is good
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years
Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

You never did say why you got to pick the verse or why shorter was better?

First the verse isn't describing the earth movement,but the day and night phenomenon.

i made it very clear that we are talking about a phenomenon and i can't understand why you have gone to descripe who caused it.

Yes we know that earth movement which have been done by god plan

Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (24:44)

Allah causeth : so all the proccess is causeth by god

Yaqleb of the day and the night : revolve,flip and turn over (not talking about earth movement) but the day and night.

herein is indeed a lesson for those who see : simply because we can observe it by seeing how day and night revolve around earth.

But it seems you don't or don't want to understand what is the phenomenon such the the observation done by Newton when he started to study the phenomenon of the dropped apple from the tree that made him then to study the reason behind such phenomenon. SO your sample verse is not describing the phenomenon and the worst of it all that it is even not describing the exact movement of the earth which should be around it's axis,than just saying
"the rotation of the Earth within the Heavens"which is wrong and not precise at all.

So simply when we describe the phenomenon of the dropped apple is a thing and what cause it is another thing which is for this phenomenon was the gravity.

So don't please mix up things as you used to for just a biased reasons.


it is up to you if you want to believe that your sample verse is describing a phenomenon and that it was better than the quranic one,but i am happy that at least you started to challenge god's verses and i hope for you the good luck.

 

[1robin]

First the verse isn't describing the earth movement,but the day and night phenomenon.

Here we go. It says

Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night

That is what it says. Yes I know what it means but a statement that actually says what it means, instead of us having to know that what it is saying actually means something else, is "better" by any standard.

I made it very clear that we are talking about a phenomenon and i can't understand why you have gone to descripe who caused it.

Your verse it's self says who caused it.

Allah causeth

Why can't I? Allah is Arabic for God by the way. It is a title not a name.

Yes we know that earth movement which have been done by god plan
Allah causeth the

revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (24:44)
Allah causeth : so all the proccess is causeth by god
Yaqleb of the day and the night : revolve,flip and turn over (not talking about earth movement) but the day and night.
herein is indeed a lesson for those who see : simply because we can observe it by seeing how day and night revolve around earth.
But it seems you don't or don't want to understand what is the phenomenon such the the observation done by Newton when he started to study the phenomenon of the dropped apple from the tree that made him then to study the reason behind such phenomenon. SO your sample verse is not describing the phenomenon and the worst of it all that it is even not describing the exact movement of the earth which should be around it's axis,than just saying

I have a math degree and know all about Newton. Who was a Christian by the way.

"the rotation of the Earth within the Heavens"which is wrong and not precise at all.

Prove anything that is wrong about that statement. It does indeed do exactly that. This is just the kind of nonsense that made me reluctant to do this. The word or any word that means axis does not appear in your verse

Allah causeth the revolution (Yaqleb, flipping) of the day and the night

Why are you demanding it appear in mine? Rotation of a shereoid implies an axis.

So simply when we describe the phenomenon of the dropped apple is a thing and what cause it is another thing which is for this phenomenon was the gravity.
So don't please mix up things as you used to for just a biased reasons.

I do not even know what you are talking about. God created gravity and light and I said God did it. What are you saying?

it is up to you if you want to believe that your sample verse is describing a phenomenon and that it was better than the quranic one,but i am happy that at least you started to challenge god's verses and i hope for you the good luck.

I gave God's verses but bettered Allah's verses and I have no idea what you are talking about any more.

 

[FearGod]

Here we go. It says That is what it says. Yes I know what it means but a statement that actually says what it means, instead of us having to know that what it is saying actually means something else, is "better" by any standard.
Your verse it's self says who caused it. Why can't I? Allah is Arabic for God by the way. It is a title not a name.
I have a math degree and know all about Newton. Who was a Christian by the way.
Prove anything that is wrong about that statement. It does indeed do exactly that. This is just the kind of nonsense that made me reluctant to do this. The word or any word that means axis does not appear in your verse Why are you demanding it appear in mine? Rotation of a shereoid implies an axis.
I do not even know what you are talking about. God created gravity and light and I said God did it. What are you saying?
I gave God's verses but bettered Allah's verses and I have no idea what you are talking about any more.

i don't want to debate a lot as i said from the beginning,but i said judge it yourself and if you think that you have defeated god's words in the quran and you do admit that you made it better than him,the almighty god,then god luck for you.

 

[1robin]

i don't want to debate a lot as i said from the beginning,but i said judge it yourself and if you think that you have defeated god's words in the quran and you do admit that you made it better than him,the almighty god,then god luck for you.

Well that was easy. You are consistent with your word here, if nothing else. Shalom.

 

[Lady B]

Sorry for the late reply Lady B. Soo much has happened since I was gone - I had hard time finding the entry where I left off

I'll try to answer your questions regarding Sahih(meaning authentic) Hadith. However, I would add a disclaimer that I am no scholar of Islam, just a layman.

Let me first clarify one thing - it is not about who's more reliable Abu Bakr or Ayesha(may Allah be pleased with them both) at all. All of the well known companions of the Prophet(pbuh) are trustworthy and reliable. However, neither of them came to me or you directly and told us that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said this or that, right ? So the reliability issue is on the people who informed us about what they said about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Let me give a bit more detail.

"A hadith is a saying of Muhammad or a report about something he did. Over time, during the first few centuries of Islam, it became obvious that many so-called hadith were in fact spurious sayings that had been fabricated for various motives, at best to encourage believers to act righteously and at worse to corrupt believers' understanding of Islam and to lead them astray.
...
While the early collections of hadith often contained hadith that were of questionable origin, gradually collections of authenticated hadith called sahih (lit. true, correct) were compiled. Such collections were made possible by the development of the science of hadith criticism, a science at the basis of which was a critical analysis of the chain of (oral) transmission (isnad) of the hadith going all the way back to Muhammad.The two most highly respected collections of hadith are the authenticated collections the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. (Sahih literally means "correct, true, valid, or sound.") In addition to these, four other collections came to be well-respected, although not to the degree of Bukhari and Muslim's sahih collections. These four other collections are the Sunan of Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and Abu Da'ud." [1]

So normally if you rely on Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, it should be authentic. However, you have to remember that, for example, Imam Bukhari collected more than 100,000 hadiths and then kept only 7000+ in his Sahih collections out of which only 20 or so some Islamic scholars say are questionable. But they don't just say it is questionable out of the whim - they only do so if they didn't agree with the authenticity of the chain of narration of the Hadith listed in Bukhari.

Here's a glimpse of what is involved in deciding if a Hadith is authentic or not:
*Unbroken chain of narrators going all the way back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* "Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating,"[2]. For example, if X said he heard/got the narration from Y and it was found out that they were not contemporary and could have never met - this narrator won't be considered trustworthy.
* "to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited."[2]
* "Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them." [2]

So as you can see there's a lot involved in determining if a Hadith is Sahih or not. Another basic rule for checking authenticity is that hadith should not contradict what is said in the Qur'an.

Just a side note : often times people who want to attack Islam would quote stuff from known fabricated Hadiths, or quote partial Hadiths, or quote weak Hadiths(with broken chain or unreliable narrators in the chain), or quote from some sources which were written before Bukhari or Muslim went through the science of verifying the chain of narrators to discard the unauthentic ones.

Hope this helps.

References:
[1]http://islam.uga.edu/hadith.html
[2]http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html

I am very impressed by your clear answers, Thankyou so Much!!!:bow:

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry for the late reply Lady B. Soo much has happened since I was gone - I had hard time finding the entry where I left off

I'll try to answer your questions regarding Sahih(meaning authentic) Hadith. However, I would add a disclaimer that I am no scholar of Islam, just a layman.

Let me first clarify one thing - it is not about who's more reliable Abu Bakr or Ayesha(may Allah be pleased with them both) at all. All of the well known companions of the Prophet(pbuh) are trustworthy and reliable. However, neither of them came to me or you directly and told us that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said this or that, right ? So the reliability issue is on the people who informed us about what they said about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Let me give a bit more detail.

"A hadith is a saying of Muhammad or a report about something he did. Over time, during the first few centuries of Islam, it became obvious that many so-called hadith were in fact spurious sayings that had been fabricated for various motives, at best to encourage believers to act righteously and at worse to corrupt believers' understanding of Islam and to lead them astray.
...
While the early collections of hadith often contained hadith that were of questionable origin, gradually collections of authenticated hadith called sahih (lit. true, correct) were compiled. Such collections were made possible by the development of the science of hadith criticism, a science at the basis of which was a critical analysis of the chain of (oral) transmission (isnad) of the hadith going all the way back to Muhammad.The two most highly respected collections of hadith are the authenticated collections the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. (Sahih literally means "correct, true, valid, or sound.") In addition to these, four other collections came to be well-respected, although not to the degree of Bukhari and Muslim's sahih collections. These four other collections are the Sunan of Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and Abu Da'ud." [1]

So normally if you rely on Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, it should be authentic. However, you have to remember that, for example, Imam Bukhari collected more than 100,000 hadiths and then kept only 7000+ in his Sahih collections out of which only 20 or so some Islamic scholars say are questionable. But they don't just say it is questionable out of the whim - they only do so if they didn't agree with the authenticity of the chain of narration of the Hadith listed in Bukhari.

Here's a glimpse of what is involved in deciding if a Hadith is authentic or not:
*Unbroken chain of narrators going all the way back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* "Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating,"[2]. For example, if X said he heard/got the narration from Y and it was found out that they were not contemporary and could have never met - this narrator won't be considered trustworthy.
* "to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited."[2]
* "Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them." [2]

So as you can see there's a lot involved in determining if a Hadith is Sahih or not. Another basic rule for checking authenticity is that hadith should not contradict what is said in the Qur'an.

Just a side note : often times people who want to attack Islam would quote stuff from known fabricated Hadiths, or quote partial Hadiths, or quote weak Hadiths(with broken chain or unreliable narrators in the chain), or quote from some sources which were written before Bukhari or Muslim went through the science of verifying the chain of narrators to discard the unauthentic ones.

Hope this helps.

References:
[1]http://islam.uga.edu/hadith.html
[2]http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html

Hi LoverofTruth,

While I agree with this overall, but in my view there are a few things that should be considered:

You have wrote:

Here's a glimpse of what is involved in deciding if a Hadith is authentic or not:
*Unbroken chain of narrators going all the way back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* "Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating,"[2]. For example, if X said he heard/got the narration from Y and it was found out that they were not contemporary and could have never met - this narrator won't be considered trustworthy.
* "to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited."[2]
* "Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them." [2]

- While it is true that Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion, but, the fact is only God perfectly knows about that. Because, that has to do with the heart of them.
- Moreover, it is extremely difficault to know a very accurate history. There could be multiple accounts about some indivisuals narrated by different people.
- Also, another major issue in my view is that, each sect of Islam have a different belief about who are the reliable and trustworthy ones, who must have said correct Hadithes. So, the true Hadithes could be in any sects (Shia/Sunni/Suffi), and the false Hadithed (or inaccurate Hadithes) can also be in any sects.
- So, when it comes to the matter of faith, accuracy and infallibility is very important. Because what if these Hadithes cause some errors in the beliefs? or there could be some Hadithes in other sects, which could be ture, but they are not used?

Do you think, that Moslems generally consider these points? or they have a different opinion?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hi LoverofTruth,

While I agree with this overall, but in my view there are a few things that should be considered:

You have wrote:



- While it is true that Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion, but, the fact is only God perfectly knows about that. Because, that has to do with the heart of them.
- Moreover, it is extremely difficault to know a very accurate history. There could be multiple accounts about some indivisuals narrated by different people.
- Also, another major issue in my view is that, each sect of Islam have a different belief about who are the reliable and trustworthy ones, who must have said correct Hadithes. So, the true Hadithes could be in any sects (Shia/Sunni/Suffi), and the false Hadithed (or inaccurate Hadithes) can also be in any sects.
- So, when it comes to the matter of faith, accuracy and infallibility is very important. Because what if these Hadithes cause some errors in the beliefs? or there could be some Hadithes in other sects, which could be ture, but they are not used?

Do you think, that Moslems generally consider these points? or they have a different opinion?

First of all, please note that Sufism is not a different sect of Islam - it is a branch that practices mysticism - there are Sufis who are from Sunnis and Shias alike. And yes, Shias might follow a different Imam for authentic Hadiths but at the end of the day the chain of narrators(and their reliability) will be pretty much the same . They might focus more on the Hadiths that are narrated by Ali(may Allah be pleased with him) but that doesn't negate the Hadiths that are narrated by for example, Abu Bakr(may Allah be pleased with him) in anyway. I have given my opinion from Sunni (majority) point of view. And what you say about trustworthiness and reliability is equally applicable to any information related to religion - so it wouldn't change what I have said in anyway.