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The Hamas Argument

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Now, about the question of legitimacy of human shields, perhaps some reminding of how war used to be may be useful.

War is a matter of two communities deciding that they are unconfortable enough with each other to escalate things to armed conflict. For most of human history it was an almost instinctive answer to demographic concerns: when population levels rise too much for confort (political, feeding, habitational confort, you name it), hostilities become more frequent and harder to appease until eventually the idea of simply crossing swords to decide which group should have suppremacy becomes widely accepted and seems reasonable.

War is not so much unacceptable as it is gross and primitive. Even fishes can wage war.

But these days political considerations, most of them fueled by unhealthy myths about the meaning and power of a Nation, have changed quite a lot of the meaning and effects of war.

War is no longer a practical if crude way of reaching a quick, brutal solution for difficult conflicts that have little better alternative. It is now a matter of pride and/or despair asserting itself by means that usually rely on either suicidal fanaticism or inconsequential money-burning.

In effect, it is often just terrorism that happens to be backed by some country or another. It has lost anything resembling moral legitimacy or justification.

That is why I agree so much with the OP. I can't bring myself to accept the Israeli argument that "Hamas should not use human shields" with any degree of seriousness or respect. It does not deserve such attention or respect. It is obscene, immoral, offensive, disgusting, ridiculous, insulting. It is a full-blown abomination. It is not even egotistical; it has degenerated into self-destructiveness, because it is simply not conceivable that Gazans will ever be swayed by the feeble argument that "Israel has a right to defend itself". People who see their own blown away by hostile fire will forget the circunstances (which are questionable at best to begin with) and remember those who actually fired the shots. And they will remember for generations. Any Zionists who hope otherwise are being tragically naive and will suffer a lot for it.

No amount of national pride or bias can change the fact that it is Israel shooting at Gaza, and it does have options that are far more constructive, albeit very difficult at the short term. Choosing to give up on them and decide that it is a kill-or-die situation only plays into Hamas' efforts at raising radicalism.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
*face palm*

Talk about evasion of the most obvious...

Why would any people or "cause" accept, or even acknowledge implementing "human shields" as a rationale for "righteous" cause?

I agree. I was playing devil's advocate for the sake of the Hamas Argument.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Allow the palestinians an autonomous state, as a poster above said to me. It really isn't that hard.

Except that Hamas has made it clear that they want the entire State of Israel to cease to exist, and the Jews there to be killed, driven out, or at best to be turned into a permanent underclass in the Islamist state Hamas wishes to set up in place of Israel. These ideas are basic to Hamas: they're in the Hamas charter. They refuse to admit Israel has the right to exist.

In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew all Jews from Gaza. It left many resources behind and payments were made from both Israel and the international community to the Palestinian Authority to fund building up the infrastructure and economy of Gaza. Instead, the Palestinians destroyed much of the resources the Israelis had left behind, they elected Hamas to office, and Hamas took the money and began buying weapons. When Israel and the international community sent aid in the form of construction materiel to help build homes and infrastructure in Gaza, Hamas took the materiel and used it to make tunnels for smuggling weapons and terrorist assault and kidnapping.

What has Hamas ever said or done to make Israel-- or anyone else-- believe that they would be satisfied with an autonomous state in Gaza, or even both Gaza and the West Bank; that if granted such a state, they would not view it as a helpful platform for fighting to take the rest of Israel away, killing as many Jews as they could in the process?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Now, about the question of legitimacy of human shields, perhaps some reminding of how war used to be may be useful.

War is a matter of two communities deciding that they are unconfortable enough with each other to escalate things to armed conflict. For most of human history it was an almost instinctive answer to demographic concerns: when population levels rise too much for confort (political, feeding, habitational confort, you name it), hostilities become more frequent and harder to appease until eventually the idea of simply crossing swords to decide which group should have suppremacy becomes widely accepted and seems reasonable.

War is not so much unacceptable as it is gross and primitive. Even fishes can wage war.

But these days political considerations, most of them fueled by unhealthy myths about the meaning and power of a Nation, have changed quite a lot of the meaning and effects of war.

War is no longer a practical if crude way of reaching a quick, brutal solution for difficult conflicts that have little better alternative. It is now a matter of pride and/or despair asserting itself by means that usually rely on either suicidal fanaticism or inconsequential money-burning.

In effect, it is often just terrorism that happens to be backed by some country or another. It has lost anything resembling moral legitimacy or justification.

That is why I agree so much with the OP. I can't bring myself to accept the Israeli argument that "Hamas should not use human shields" with any degree of seriousness or respect. It does not deserve such attention or respect. It is obscene, immoral, offensive, disgusting, ridiculous, insulting. It is a full-blown abomination. It is not even egotistical; it has degenerated into self-destructiveness, because it is simply not conceivable that Gazans will ever be swayed by the feeble argument that "Israel has a right to defend itself". People who see their own blown away by hostile fire will forget the circunstances (which are questionable at best to begin with) and remember those who actually fired the shots. And they will remember for generations. Any Zionists who hope otherwise are being tragically naive and will suffer a lot for it.

No amount of national pride or bias can change the fact that it is Israel shooting at Gaza, and it does have options that are far more constructive, albeit very difficult at the short term. Choosing to give up on them and decide that it is a kill-or-die situation only plays into Hamas' efforts at raising radicalism.

I would suggest that any government that intentionally takes actions that knowingly would put their own people in serious jeopardy is morally repugnant. Hamas well knew what it was doing and had an estimated 10,000 missiles and rockets. Before even the Jewish students were murdered, which Hamas has finally admitted it planned, they launched 705 missiles and rockets against civilian targets in Israel.

No country, including yours, would ever allow itself to be attacked without response. And for Hamas to knowingly bait Israel to respond to their attacks, well knowing what Israel would have to do, is morally repugnant. Israel did what it had to do in order to defend itself. War is terrible as most of us agree, but Israel didn't start it, nor could they just ignore these hundreds of attacks on their own civilian population.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Hamas well knew what it was doing and had an estimated 10,000 missiles and rockets. .

Israel knew what Hamas was doing as well, but returned fire anyway. There is no way you can morally dig Israel out of that hole. After all, Israel started this back in the 1940's and has prayed for the extermination of the Palestinians ever since.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
Allow the palestinians an autonomous state, as a poster above said to me. It really isn't that hard.
I agree there should be a state independent state from Israel, but you're:

>Implying that the PA is a western-style liberal democracy or will become one once it's given autonomy.
>Implying that no logistical issues currently exist.

Which means it really isn't 'not that hard'.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Israel knew what Hamas was doing as well, but returned fire anyway. There is no way you can morally dig Israel out of that hole.

I don't have to "dig Israel out of the hole" because anyone but maybe an absolute pacifist realizes that countries have the right of self-defense. Are you one?

I asked you before what you would want your country to do if such an attack happened against where you live, but you didn't respond. So, what would you do? Details please.

BTW, Israel didn't respond to the vast majority of the 705 missile/rocket attacks, so did you voice your concern that Hamas was using these offensive weapons against innocent civilians in Israel? Can you show us where you did this here?
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
I agree there should be a state independent state from Israel, but you're:

>Implying that the PA is a western-style liberal democracy or will become one once it's given autonomy.
>Implying that no logistical issues currently exists.

Which means it really isn't 'not that hard'.

You can try to vilify Palestine all you like. But the fact remains that Israel started this. Israel created Hamas by its own actions throughout history. You don't get an enemy for nothing. The world will ever begin to sympathis with your position until you free palestine, stop oppressing them and allow them to become an independant, autonomous state. Only after all that has come to pass, if Hamas continues it's violence, will the world sympathise with you.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
After all, Israel started this back in the 1940's and has prayed for the extermination of the Palestinians ever since.

That is a truly pathetic lie, and you should be ashamed of this. There are roughly 1 & 1/2 million Arabs, most of Palestinian descent, living in Israel proper, and do you see a line up of them leaving? They are represented in the Knesset and some serve in the IDF.

OTOH, Jews by law cannot live in either the WB or the GS. I've been to Muslem sites in Israel and also a joint Jewish-Palestinian kibbutz there, so for you to say that Israelis want to exterminate Palestinians is just so unbelievably pathetic. You either have literally no clue of life over there or you're just ignorant on the subject, nor do you seem to be interested in any kind of honest approach on this.
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
You can try to vilify Palestine all you like. But the fact remains that Israel started this. Israel created Hamas by its own actions throughout history. You don't get an enemy for nothing. The world will ever begin to sympathis with your position until you free palestine, stop oppressing them and allow them to become an independant, autonomous state.
Way to dodge my previous points :rolleyes:

Only after all that has come to pass, if Hamas continues it's violence, will the world sympathise with you.
So basically what you're saying is the Israelis should just give them a state immediately and hope that out of goodwill Hamas won't attack when it's clearly been their intention to take over Israel and make it an Islamic state :rolleyes: Sounds logical to me!
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Way to dodge my previous points :rolleyes:

Because they're stupid and irrelevant to the fact Israel continues to fire missiles in the full knowledge of what Hamas is up to. It doesn't matter what happens with Palestine, really, as long as it can do so without Israeli oppression.

So basically what you're saying is the Israelis should just give them a state immediately and hope that out of goodwill Hamas won't attack when it's clearly been their intention to take over Israel and make it an Islamic state :rolleyes: Sounds logical to me!
They want palestine. Give it to them. If they continue to bring violence upon you thereafter, then they'll be the ones to get sanctions, right?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Keep telling your poor, conditioned propagandised brain this.

You have shown that you are totally irrelevant to any serious conversation dealing with this topic. A truly honest response above would be to actually deal with the reality even if you were to disagree with me. But you couldn't do that, and just had to lash back with the above. How pathetic.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But history records Israel invaded first.

Yes, of course they did invade first since Hamas didn't invade Israel at all but did send 705 missiles against civilian targets in Israel even before they killed three Jewish students. Seems that you have a serious problem with cause-and-effect, so it's pretty obvious science isn't your forte either.
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Because they're stupid and irrelevant to the fact Israel continues to fire missiles in the full knowledge of what Hamas is up to.
My points are in regards to Palestine becoming a state, so they're hardly irrelevant. So maybe instead of calling them 'stupid' you could actually try to address them instead of avoiding them ;)

They want palestine. Give it to them. If they continue to bring violence upon you thereafter, then they'll be the ones to get sanctions, right?
What's to stop a Palestinian state from getting backing from Iran, Hezbollah, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, ISIS, etc? I doubt sanctions would mean much in such a scenario.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I agree there should be a Palestinian state, but Hamas (at the very least in it's current form) can't and shouldn't be a part of it's government.

I agree, but since I believe in democracy it's really none of my business.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In my opinion, allowing a militarized Hamas -- or perhaps even Hamas in any form -- to be part of a Palestinian state would do little or nothing to change the current conflict because Hamas' Charter seeks the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. To ask the Israelis to accept that amounts to asking them to accept a continuation of the conflict under the guise of pursuing peace. Of course, we humans love our guises, we love to be fooled, and we will pay more money to be fooled than we will to be told the truth.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Way to dodge my previous points :rolleyes:

So basically what you're saying is the Israelis should just give them a state immediately and hope that out of goodwill Hamas won't attack when it's clearly been their intention to take over Israel and make it an Islamic state :rolleyes: Sounds logical to me!

You don't give it to Hamas; you give it to the Palestinian people. And you do this because denying them autonomy is an affront to human dignity.

As the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states, everyone has the right to a nationality. This means that there are only two possibilites that do not deny fundamental human rights:

- recognize the Palestinians as Israeli nationals and grant them all the rights that go along with this, including full Israeli citizenship, the right to free movement within Israel, and the right to vote in Israeli elections.

- recognize full Palestinian statehood and treat the Palestinian territory as its own independent, sovereign nation.

Which would you prefer?
 
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