The Hamas Argument

[Sunstone]

...Jews by law cannot live in either the WB...

From what I've heard, Jews have been doing just fine in getting around the spirit, if perhaps not the letter, of that law.

 

[metis]

Of all the cognitive dissonance among Israel's cheerleaders abroad, the fantasy that Israelis are far more tolerant and reasonable than Palestinians is the most absurd and naive.

Inside Israel's Pro-War Nationalist Camp

Palestinians live and operate freely in Israel, are free to leave if they wish, but Jews are not even allowed to live in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, but it's Israel that's the least tolerant?

Clueless and delusional.

 

[Alceste]

In my opinion, allowing a militarized Hamas -- or perhaps even Hamas in any form -- to be part of a Palestinian state would do little or nothing to change the current conflict because Hamas' Charter seeks the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. To ask the Israelis to accept that amounts to asking them to accept a continuation of the conflict under the guise of pursuing peace. Of course, we humans love our guises, we love to be fooled, and we will pay more money to be fooled than we will to be told the truth.

Do you have a citation for your claim that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Jews, as opposed to simply the elimination of the state of "Israel" on a map? As I understand it, their issue is with the existence of a Jewish state in what they consider to be Arab land, not the existence of Jewish people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The areas are not part of any legal state.

That situation is untenable under international law.

The 1949 Egypt-Israel armistice agreement stipulated that the boundary of the Gaza Strip is not a national border. Maybe you can tell us how it's physically possible to walk from a legal state (Israel) to an area "not part of any legal state" (Gaza) without ever crossing a national border. Is Israel magic?

 

[Phil25]

Do you have a citation for your claim that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Jews, as opposed to simply the elimination of the state of "Israel" on a map? As I understand it, their issue is with the existence of a Jewish state in what they consider to be Arab land, not the existence of Jewish people.

Do you think that Israel should exist? If not, and if its based on former ownership of the land by Palestinians, do you think that Greeks should get Constantinople(Istanbul) back?

 

[metis]

From what I've heard, Jews have been doing just fine in getting around the spirit, if perhaps not the letter, of that law.

Only when it comes to the settlements, which is another matter. I've long had a problem with these settlements, and I haven't agreed with their construction, with one exception.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It has a special designation ("observer state status"), according to the U.N., and it does have its own sovereign governments.

That didn't actually answer my question.

Every person is entitled to a nationality. Exactly which nationality is someone who was born, raised, and now lives in Gaza? Feel free to give any answer you want as long as the answer is, in fact, a nation.

 

[Alceste]

Well seeing that Hamas calls for the death or dhimmitude of Jews, it is my business.

And Israelis call for the death of Arabs. I'm on the side of Israelis and Palestinians who desire peace, diplomacy and reconciliation. I feel nothing but contempt for those on both sides who desire the death of others. I actually think the world would be improved if all such people got into a big pit and murdered one another until none were left.The trouble is soldiers are cowards. They refuse to leave the rest of us out of it and fight each other directly because doing so increases the chance of their own death. So instead they murder children from afar, hoping an enemy fighter might be caught in the carnage.

 

[xkatz]

Do you have a citation for your claim that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Jews, as opposed to simply the elimination of the state of "Israel" on a map? As I understand it, their issue is with the existence of a Jewish state in what they consider to be Arab land, not the existence of Jewish people.

In the Preamble:

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article 7:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

 

[xkatz]

I actually think the world would be improved if all such people got into a big pit and murdered one another until none were left..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ig2qZEiNv8

[youtube]0Ig2qZEiNv8[/youtube]

 

[Sunstone]

Do you have a citation for your claim that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Jews, as opposed to simply the elimination of the state of "Israel" on a map? As I understand it, their issue is with the existence of a Jewish state in what they consider to be Arab land, not the existence of Jewish people.

I stand corrected. Apparently, they wish to kill all the Jews except those who hide behind a certain species of tree:

the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).​

​

That's quite reassuring. Even more reassuring:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

So, I suppose if we take them at their word, they will not honor any "initiatives, proposals, or international conferences". But then how can we expect them to honor any peace treaties that do not grant them all of Israel and Palestine?

Whether they propose to leave alive a few Jews in theory or not, they are barbaric and uncompromising warmongers. Of course, I can understand how a modern, liberal view of the matter practically dictates that we fool ourselves into thinking all people everywhere are always reasonable in the end.

Source for Charter.

 

[Alceste]

A fair point to make. But again, how do you give the general Palestinian populace what they want without also giving it to Hamas in particular?


I hope so.

Northern Ireland is doing fine with the IRA's political wing in government, despite England struggling with the same paternalistic nonsense for a hundred years.

 

[xkatz]

Northern Ireland is doing fine with the IRA's political wing in government, despite England struggling with the same paternalistic nonsense for a hundred years.

So it should take a hundred years for Hamas to change its tune?

Also, I'm pretty sure the IRA (at least in it's current form) doesn't believe it's their sacred religious duty to kill British people for the sake of them being British.

 

[Alceste]

Palestinians live and operate freely in Israel, are free to leave if they wish, but Jews are not even allowed to live in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, but it's Israel that's the least tolerant?

Clueless and delusional.

So you haven't heard of these things called "settlements" in the WB then? I'm surprised. It's a pretty hot issue.

 

[Flankerl]

That situation is untenable under international law.

The 1949 Egypt-Israel armistice agreement stipulated that the boundary of the Gaza Strip is not a national border. Maybe you can tell us how it's physically possible to walk from a legal state (Israel) to an area "not part of any legal state" (Gaza) without ever crossing a national border. Is Israel magic?

Are you edgy by default?

Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt therefore coming to an agreement with each other where the border is.
At the same time Egypt renounced their claim on Gaza nullifying the Egyptian passports of its residents living there.

Because of that Gaza belongs neither to Israel nor to Egypt. Jordan did the same with the West Bank.

I fail to see whats so special about areas that dont belong to a state. There is a tiny strip of land in the south of Egypt on the border to Sudan. Neither Sudan nor Egypt claim it.

 

[Alceste]

Do you think that Israel should exist? If not, and if its based on former ownership of the land by Palestinians, do you think that Greeks should get Constantinople(Istanbul) back?

I don't care, really. Philosophically, I think both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to self-governance, but pragmatically, neither side is behaving in such a way that I believe they could handle the responsibility of self government unless their weapons were taken away.

 

[Mycroft]

Do you seriously think a US or UK unit under attack from a hospital would routinely wait for a special ops unit to arrive and then take out the enemy?

No. That's why after you re-take a hospital and rout-out any bogtrotters, you secure that area to make sure it can't happen again. You go in. You pew pew the baddies, then you lock up the place tight. You don't go 'Ah well, **** it, it's their own fault for using a hospital.' And drop a bomb.

 

[Alceste]

I stand corrected. Apparently, they wish to kill all the Jews except those who hide behind a certain species of tree:



[/INDENT]That's quite reassuring. Even more reassuring:



So, I suppose if we take them at their word, they will not honor any "initiatives, proposals, or international conferences". But then how can we expect them to honor any peace treaties that do not grant them all of Israel and Palestine?

Whether they propose to leave alive a few Jews in theory or not, they are barbaric and uncompromising warmongers. Of course, I can understand how a modern, liberal view of the matter practically dictates that we fool ourselves into thinking all people everywhere are always reasonable in the end.

Source for Charter.

I don't propose that Hamas is reasonable. I propose that Hamas and the IDF are equally unreasonable. Such language is common on both sides of the conflict.

OTOH, that doesn't read to me like a global effort to exterminate all Jews. It reads to me like a fairly accurate description of what war is, but for the rather whimsical notion that hiding behind a particular kind of tree can save you from the bloodlust of your enemies during a war.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't propose that Hamas is reasonable. I propose that Hamas and the IDF are equally unreasonable. Such language is common on both sides of the conflict.

Just as there is no smoke without fire, and tangos can only happen in twos, so it goes that there are no Palestinian Human Shields without Israeli aggressors and there are no dead Israelis without Hamas Rockets.

 

[Alceste]

So it should take a hundred years for Hamas to change its tune?

Also, I'm pretty sure the IRA (at least in it's current form) doesn't believe it's their sacred religious duty to kill British people for the sake of them being British.

They killed plenty of Brits without remorse, including civilians. The turning point came when they attained a non-violent path to political representation. It certainly was not a reward for their pacifism.