The Hamas Argument

[xkatz]

OTOH, that doesn't read to me like a global effort to exterminate all Jews. It reads to me like a fairly accurate description of what war is, but for the rather whimsical notion that hiding behind a particular kind of tree can save you from the bloodlust of your enemies during a war.

So war is always a religiously mandated call to genocide ? Utter BS

 

[Alceste]

Just as there is no smoke without fire, and tangos can only happen in twos, so it goes that there are no Palestinian Human Shields without Israeli aggressors and there are no dead Israelis without Hamas Rockets.

Exactly. In fact, there are very few dead Israelis even with the rockets, and a much larger proportion of Israeli casualties have actually been fighters. Their histrionics and posturing aside, Israel is a very safe place to live, unless you object to the war, in which case you may be fired from your job or physically assaulted by Israeli nationalists.

 

[xkatz]

They killed plenty of Brits without remorse, including civilians. The turning point came when they attained a non-violent path to political representation. It certainly was not a reward for their pacifism.

The IRA has largely come to terms with rejecting violent tactics and are participating through solely political and democratic means. Hamas has not. And even during the times of violence, there weren't dozens of Catholic bishops on European TV calling for the death of protestant Brits.

 

[Alceste]

So war is a religiously mandated call to genocide ? Utter BS

As I said, I don't interpret "fighting the Jews" to mean the global extermination of Jews. Jews fighting Muslims and killing each other is basically what is happening right now. I think they deserve each other, but have no right to murder civilians.

 

[xkatz]

As I said, I don't interpret "fighting the Jews" to mean the global extermination of Jews.

You're interpretation is not the same as Hamas' current position, which makes it irrelevant.

 

[Alceste]

Sorry folks, I'm really bored of the open and unrepentant anti-Palestinian bigotry and double standards of Israel's RF fan club. It's a depressing snapshot of humanity. I'm off to find some funny cat pictures or something.

 

[xkatz]

Sorry folks, I'm really bored of the open and unrepentant anti-Palestinian bigotry and double standards of Israel's RF fan club. It's a depressing snapshot of humanity. I'm off to find some funny cat pictures or something.

Being anti-Hamas doesn't mean being anti-Palestinian, but being sensible.

 

[Sunstone]

Being anti-Hamas doesn't mean being anti-Palestinian, but being sensible.

I agree. I'm for a Palestinian state, I loathe the current government of Israel, I am appalled by the West Bank settlements, I believe in Israel's right to exist, and I'm against Hamas. I don't see any contradictions there.

 

[xkatz]

I agree. I'm for a Palestinian state, I loathe the current government of Israel, I am appalled by the West Bank settlements, I believe in Israel's right to exist, and I'm against Hamas. I don't see any contradictions there.

I wish I could give you another frubal today. :clap

 

[Sunstone]

I wish I could give you another frubal today. :clap

Thank you. I think the tragedy of this situation, beyond the tragedy of so many deaths, is that some well meaning people have turned their natural and understandable sympathy for the civilian Palestinian dead into sympathy and support for Hamas.

And I further think the obscenity in this situation is that some not so well meaning people are exploiting other people's natural and understandable sympathies to promote their antisemitic agenda.

But what do I know. I'm just a country boy lost in the big city.

 

[Mycroft]

Thank you. I think the tragedy of this situation, beyond the tragedy of so many deaths, is that some well meaning people have turned their natural and understandable sympathy for the civilian Palestinian dead into sympathy and support for Hamas.

I don't support Hamas. I think all war and violence is deplorable. I'm simply arguing that there's no smoke without fire and that, while Israel is fully alive to Hamas' tactics of using civilians as shields, choose to open fire anyway indicating nothing but a contempt for palestinian life.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't support Hamas. I think all war and violence is deplorable. I'm simply arguing that there's no smoke without fire and that, while Israel is fully alive to Hamas' tactics of using civilians as shields, choose to open fire anyway indicating nothing but a contempt for palestinian life.

If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, then how many civilians would now be dead? About 2000 Palestinians are dead. I hear most of those are civilians, but that some of those are fighters. Do you think a modern army would only kill about 2000 people in the time the Israeli army has had if it were intentionally targeting civilians?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Not all war is deplorable, but it is evil to desire war. Its evil to waste lives. Self defence is admirable. Wanting to live is admirable. Dying is natural and dying is inevitable. Living requires effort.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, then how many civilians would now be dead? About 2000 Palestinians are dead. I hear most of those are civilians, but that some of those are fighters. Do you think a modern army would only kill about 2000 people in the time the Israeli army has had if it were intentionally targeting civilians?

Stop trying to trick us with your rational arguments. The fact of the matter is that Israel is filled with horned devil-Jews and the noble and peace-loving Hamas is valiantly resisting the oppression of the evil Jews.

If Hamas had Israel's military resources, this whole situation would immediately end in a peaceful manner and everyone would live in blissful harmony forevermore.

 

[Sunstone]

Stop trying to trick us with your rational arguments. The fact of the matter is that Israel is filled with horned devil-Jews and the noble and peace-loving Hamas is valiantly resisting the oppression of the evil Jews.

If Hamas had Israel's military resources, this whole situation would immediately end in a peaceful manner and everyone would live in blissful harmony forevermore.

I am compelled by the power of your reasoning to grant your point. If Hamas had Israel's resources, there would be peace --- largely because there is nothing so peaceful as a dead man.

 

[Mycroft]

If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, then how many civilians would now be dead? About 2000 Palestinians are dead. I hear most of those are civilians, but that some of those are fighters. Do you think a modern army would only kill about 2000 people in the time the Israeli army has had if it were intentionally targeting civilians?

There's a difference between intentionally targeting civilians and just not caring whether there are any civilians around when you drop a bomb on a terrorist.

Hamas surrounds itself with civilians. Israel knows this well, yet Israel opens fire anyway killing said civilians. That's not intentionally targeting civilians, that's targeting hamas with no regard for who they use as a shield. And I think, in all earnest, that if Hamas were able to surround itself with Israeli nationals, the IDF wouldn't be so quick to drop the bomb.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, then how many civilians would now be dead? About 2000 Palestinians are dead. I hear most of those are civilians, but that some of those are fighters. Do you think a modern army would only kill about 2000 people in the time the Israeli army has had if it were intentionally targeting civilians?

There's a difference between deliberately targetting civilians and not giving regard to civilians around military targets.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I am compelled by the power of your reasoning to grant your point. If Hamas had Israel's resources, there would be peace --- largely because there is nothing so peaceful as a dead man.

What about a dead woman? Sheesh, your unrelenting sexism is showing again.

 

[Sunstone]

There's a difference between intentionally targeting civilians and just not caring whether there are any civilians around when you drop a bomb on a terrorist.

Hamas surrounds itself with civilians. Israel knows this well, yet Israel opens fire anyway killing said civilians. That's not intentionally targeting civilians, that's targeting hamas with no regard for who they use as a shield. And I think, in all earnest, that if Hamas were able to surround itself with Israeli nationals, the IDF wouldn't be so quick to drop the bomb.

There's a difference between deliberately targetting civilians and not giving regard to civilians around military targets.

If someone were shooting through your window at your family, would you fire back if they had their kid in their lap? And if you fired back, would that necessarily mean you didn't care at all about their kid?

The real world often presents people with situations that do not reduce to a clear right or wrong. I can understand how that confuses many of us, for it is human nature to want things to boil down to right or wrong, yes or no, black or white. But perhaps the moral truth lies not with "morally right", nor with "morally wrong", but merely with the best that can be done under the circumstances.

 

[Sunstone]

What about a dead woman? Sheesh, your unrelenting sexism is showing again.

Are you seriously suggesting that a dead woman is equal to a dead man? I mean, I'm all for women's right to vote and such, but let's be realistic! Sir, you've gone too far!