The Hamas Argument

[Kilgore Trout]

It's ironic that some people are able to easily answer complex issues of morality when they live in places where such problems are highly unlikely to happen to them.

The luxury of having a safe, easy life tends to cultivate all sorts of lofty, hypothetical philosophies which immediately crumble in the face of having to make actual life and death decisions.

Of course, it's nice to live in a society where such simple, naive views are widely held. It's preferable to the alternative.

 

[Sunstone]

If you think Israel cares that much about palestinian civilians, why doesn't it simply invade Palestine as a peacekeeping force and take out Hamas with ground forces minimising civilian casualties?

Awesome point! I'm certain Israel has never even once tried that. In fact, ever since my lobotomy, I'm absolutely certain Israel has never tried that.

 

[Mycroft]

Hamas has the intent of religiously motivated genocide, so I am outraged at them regardless of how many Israelis are or aren't killed.

Bla bla bla genocide. As if Israel wasn't guilty of Genocide either. Let he who is without sin, my friend.

 

[Mycroft]

Awesome point! I'm certain Israel has never even once tried that. In fact, ever since my lobotomy, I'm absolutely certain Israel has never tried that.

Shoe on the other foot.

Your family is in hospital visiting a relative. The hospital falls under control of Hamas militants. Israel bomb the hospital killing everyone in it, including your family. Do you support Israel's actions then?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I grant that scooping up your family and retreating to a safe place is most likely the most moral course of action. But I think it would be an escapist fantasy to suppose that it is always an available option.

In the case of Israel, not actively defending itself means gambling on its Iron Dome system to work with complete infallibility.

No, it doesn't. It means employing a mix of measures: the Iron Dome, bomb shelters, evacuating the areas most in danger, etc.

It also means doing nothing to reduce the number of rockets brought into Gaza, and hence, the number of future attacks.

No, it doesn't. Actions to cut Hamas off from its suppliers outside Gaza do not necessarily involve attacking civilian areas within Gaza.

At some point, even a nearly infallible defense will be broached. And what happens when that results in a rocket landing on a hospital or school? How can you guarantee that will never happen?

I can't, obviously, but seeing how the 700-odd rockets to date have killed a total of 28 Israelis, but 68 have died in the course of the offensive to stop them, it seems like the cure may be worse than the disease.

How does the moral calculus of your analogy work when you don't get to shoot back yourself, but instead have to send a couple of your kids to do it?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So now we have people arging that a sovereign state should do absolutely nothing while an enemy force shoots missiles into their country. If nothing, the Israel-Palestine situation always brings about plenty of amazing feats of mental contortionism.

 

[Sunstone]

Like I said to Sunstone. If Hamas were doing what Israel is doing now, you'd have be outraged.

Of course I'd be outraged. But I would hope that my outrage did not lead to my irrationally cultivating a bunch of moral fantasies to the effect that the situation was actually childishly black and white.

And don't even try to insult my intelligence by denying it.

Would it insult your intelligence to point out that you appear to be attempting to get away with a poisoning the well fallacy of logic?

 

[Alceste]

I agree. I'm for a Palestinian state, I loathe the current government of Israel, I am appalled by the West Bank settlements, I believe in Israel's right to exist, and I'm against Hamas. I don't see any contradictions there.

Yes but I imagine you, unlike most of Israel's apologists, make some amount of effort to distinguish between Hamas fighters and Palestinian civilians, and I expect you also do your best to hold Israel accountable for its own crimes instead of simply blaming Hamas for all the crimes of both factions in the conflict.

 

[Alceste]

Thank you. I think the tragedy of this situation, beyond the tragedy of so many deaths, is that some well meaning people have turned their natural and understandable sympathy for the civilian Palestinian dead into sympathy and support for Hamas.

And I further think the obscenity in this situation is that some not so well meaning people are exploiting other people's natural and understandable sympathies to promote their antisemitic agenda.

But what do I know. I'm just a country boy lost in the big city.

I've said several times that I have no sympathy for the violent element on either side. I would be happy to see them succeed in their murderous aims until none are left standing. Perhaps then we would see a peace process finally succeed. What I cannot abide is that the violent elements on both sides are purposefully killing non-combatants instead of one another.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So now we have people arging that a sovereign state should do absolutely nothing while an enemy force shoots missiles into their country. If nothing, the Israel-Palestine situation always brings about plenty of amazing feats of mental contortionism.

Not quite. My point is that if more Israelis die in the counter-attack against Hamas than would have died by the rockets, then the counter-attack attack wasn't about saving Israeli lives.

Are there other valid reasons for the Israeli actions? Maybe.

 

[Alceste]

If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, then how many civilians would now be dead? About 2000 Palestinians are dead. I hear most of those are civilians, but that some of those are fighters. Do you think a modern army would only kill about 2000 people in the time the Israeli army has had if it were intentionally targeting civilians?

"If Hamas were targeting civilians, how many would be dead?" Try that on for size. Whatever you think of Hamas, their success ratio of enemy fighters to civilians killed puts the IDF to shame.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Not quite. My point is that if more Israelis die in the counter-attack against Hamas than would have died by the rockets, then the counter-attack attack wasn't about saving Israeli lives.

Your logic is flawed. It's impossible to predict the number of lives that would continue to be lost due to rocket attacks, as well as how many Israeli soldiers would die in any military actions. Additionally, oftentimes military actions are executed with the knowledge that more soliders may die than the number of civilian lives who will be saved. This doesn't mean the action was not about saving lives, but rather about saving civilian lives - which is a fundamental function of the military.

 

[Alceste]

If someone were shooting through your window at your family, would you fire back if they had their kid in their lap? And if you fired back, would that necessarily mean you didn't care at all about their kid?

The real world often presents people with situations that do not reduce to a clear right or wrong. I can understand how that confuses many of us, for it is human nature to want things to boil down to right or wrong, yes or no, black or white. But perhaps the moral truth lies not with "morally right", nor with "morally wrong", but merely with the best that can be done under the circumstances.

Refer back to Penguin's response. Israel is not exposed on a balcony. They're on the other side of a massive actual and metaphorical wall that enemy fire can hardly ever penetrate.Given that the odds of your crazy neighbour actually presenting a risk to your family are very close to zero, is it still acceptable to shoot your crazy neighbou's kid?

 

[Alceste]

I envy the moral simplicity with which you manage to view the world. I haven't myself possessed such an unambiguous outlook since I was in my thirties.

I don't find that simplistic at all. If I'm willing to murder children who pose no threat to me, what is my own life worth? Not much, in my estimation.

 

[Alceste]

Hamas has the intent of religiously motivated genocide, so I am outraged at them regardless of how many Israelis are or aren't killed.

Many Israelis, including some at high levels of government, also have the intent of religiously motivated genocide. So why support them and demonize their equally deranged counterparts in Gaza?

 

[Sunstone]

So now we have people arging that a sovereign state should do absolutely nothing while an enemy force shoots missiles into their country. If nothing, the Israel-Palestine situation always brings about plenty of amazing feats of mental contortionism.

It is quite obvious to me that the only truly noble course of action for the Israelis is for them to sit back and lob rockets indiscriminately into Gaza. Thus, they will prove themselves to be on a genuine moral par with Hamas. And those "moral experts" who think they are already on a moral par with Hamas will need to invent new words to describe what a real moral equality looks like.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't find that simplistic at all. If I'm willing to murder children who pose no threat to me, what is my own life worth? Not much, in my estimation.

Your gross simplification of the issue is duly noted. Tell me, is moral complexity so repugnant to you that you deny its existence?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It is quite obvious to me that the only truly noble course of action for the Israelis is for them to sit back and lob rockets indiscriminately into Gaza. Thus, they will prove themselves to be on a genuine moral par with Hamas. And those "moral experts" who think they are already on a moral par with Hamas will need to invent new words to describe what a real moral equality looks like.

You're way off. The only noble course of action for Israel is to do absolutely nothing, and just get used to the fact that rockets will randomly rain down on their country from now on.

Of course, if they truly want peace, they should just throw down all their weapons and welcome Hamas into their country with open arms. This is the only real solution for a lasting peace once every last Jew is exterminated.

 

[Alceste]

So now we have people arging that a sovereign state should do absolutely nothing while an enemy force shoots missiles into their country. If nothing, the Israel-Palestine situation always brings about plenty of amazing feats of mental contortionism.

Sorry, who is advocating that Israel dismantle it's highly effective iron dome, as opposed to simply not slaughtering children willy nilly?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sorry, who is advocating that Israel dismantle it's highly effective iron dome, as opposed to simply not slaughtering children willy nilly?

I have no idea. Maybe the same people putting forth ridiculously oversimplistic strawmen.