The Hamas Argument

[Sunstone]

Refer back to Penguin's response. Israel is not exposed on a balcony. They're on the other side of a massive actual and metaphorical wall that enemy fire can hardly ever penetrate.Given that the odds of your crazy neighbour actually presenting a risk to your family are very close to zero, is it still acceptable to shoot your crazy neighbou's kid?

You seem to be fixated on trying to turn the situation into a black and white, simple as apple pie, issue. It's easy to decide who's right and who's wrong as long as you claim you can predict the future -- that there is nearly zero chance of this or nearly zero chance of that. And I don't begrudge you what you are doing. The human temptation to shirk complexity of any kind -- let alone moral complexity -- is universal. We all try to simplify things. But sometimes simplicity is not reality.

If your neighbor puts his child on his lap and then tries to shoot into your nursery to kill your children, that is not a morally unambiguous situation. It most likely cannot be resolved so that you remain morally pristine no matter what you do. There is no "high road" in such a situation. None.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You seem to be fixated on trying to turn the situation into a black and white, simple as apple pie, issue. It's easy to decide who's right and who's wrong as long as you claim you can predict the future -- that there is nearly zero chance of this or nearly zero chance of that. And I don't begrudge you what you are doing. The human temptation to shirk complexity of any kind -- let alone moral complexity -- is universal. We all try to simplify things. But sometimes simplicity is not reality.

If your neighbor puts his child on his lap and then tries to shoot into your nursery to kill your children, that is not a morally unambiguous situation. It most likely cannot be resolved so that you remain morally pristine no matter what you do. There is no "high road" in such a situation. None.

Wrong! There is always a clear right and wrong in every situation. And, in this case, whatever Israel is doing is clearly wrong, as it is run by evil, horned, devil-Jews.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would suggest that your certainty may well prove out to be in error. At this point it's too hard to say how all of this will pan out. Therefore, your comment of "dumb and self-harming" is quite conjectural.

If only.

But some of us do care about the plight of the innocent, whether they be Israelis, Palestinians, or whatever. What good would it do if we all took the "I Do Not Care" attitude when dealing with helping or protecting the innocent? If you truly don't care, then why are you even posting on the subject?

Gosh. Are you even understanding a single word of what I write?

I might as well be writing in Morse Code.

I do care, and it's not just for Israelis as I have repeatedly made clear. The main obstacle to peace there is Hamas, and Hamas has done terrible harm to Palestinians. Over the last couple of days we've found out that they've arrested and executed scores of "Israeli sympathizers" without trial. Where's your criticism of that?

You are usually a fair person to address, so I will file this one under "unexplainable accident" for the sake of continued communication and because it is so obvious that you did not understand what I meant.

 

[Mycroft]

Of course I'd be outraged. But I would hope that my outrage did not lead to my irrationally cultivating a bunch of moral fantasies to the effect that the situation was actually childishly black and white.

And what would you say to those who had killed off your entire family in order to do away with a bunch of militants?

 

[Sunstone]

You're way off. The only noble course of action for Israel is to do absolutely nothing, and just get used to the fact that rockets will randomly rain down on their country from now on.

Of course, if they truly want peace, they should just throw down all their weapons and welcome Hamas into their country with open arms. This is the only real solution for a lasting peace once every last Jew is exterminated.

There you go again! Pretending Hamas would not welcome Jewish citizens with open arms. Don't you think logically? The Palestinian people are on the whole just like people everywhere. Hamas is comprised of Palestinian people. Ergo, Hamas is not a bunch of warmongering barbarians intent on the destruction of Israel and the decimation of the Jewish population, but actually more like a bunch of good old boys. See, the logic is inescapable.

 

[Alceste]

Your gross simplification of the issue is duly noted. Tell me, is moral complexity so repugnant to you that you deny its existence?

What is repugnant to me are the double standards and cognitive dissonance required to construct a morality so complex that it's OK for Israel to slaughter children to advance their political objectives, but reprehensible for Palestine to do the same. My psychology is not wired for that particular type of complexity.

 

[Alceste]

I have no idea. Maybe the same people putting forth ridiculously oversimplistic strawmen.

So, you then?

 

[Sunstone]

And what would you say to those who had killed off your entire family in order to do away with a bunch of militants?

I'd hope to retain enough of my sanity to see that the moral situation wasn't as simple as only that bit that a child could grasp. Are you saying that's beyond you?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So, you then?

No, the people who are failing to be clever.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There you go again! Pretending Hamas would not welcome Jewish citizens with open arms. Don't you think logically? The Palestinian people are on the whole just like people everywhere. Hamas is comprised of Palestinian people. Ergo, Hamas is not a bunch of warmongering barbarians intent on the destruction of Israel and the decimation of the Jewish population, but actually more like a bunch of good old boys. See, the logic is inescapable.

The noble and peace-loving Hamas would be as brothers with the Jews of Israel if only given half a chance. Even now, they send rockets filled with candy and love into Israel, only to get murdered by the devil-Jews who reject their gifts of peace.

 

[Sunstone]

What is repugnant to me are the double standards and cognitive dissonance required to construct a morality so complex that it's OK for Israel to slaughter children to advance their political objectives, but reprehensible for Palestine to do the same. My psychology is not wired for that particular type of complexity.

Congratulations! Straw men are always very helpful in these arguments. Where have I said that there is not blame for both sides? Where have I said that what Israel or Hamas is doing is morally right? On the contrary, I have been arguing all along that neither side is morally pristine in this affair. Your desire to reduce my arguments to foolish simplicity say little or nothing about my arguments.

 

[Sunstone]

The noble and peace-loving Hamas would be as brothers with the Jews of Israel if only given half a chance. Even now, they send rockets filled with candy and love into Israel, only to get murdered by the devil-Jews who reject their gifts of peace.

Every day is Valentine's day in the Middle East. That's the real reason Hama's own Charter rejects peaceful solutions to the Conflict -- a peaceful solution would bring about an end to showering the Israelis with love rockets.

 

[Quiddity]

This is very difficult.

All solutions must be exhausted to protect civilians on both sides. Clearly Hamas cares little for civilians. However destructive and irresponsible one can say the Israeli military as been, it is also irresponsible to assume they are no different then Hamas. That is quite a leap to take.

 

[Mycroft]

I'd hope to retain enough of my sanity to see that the moral situation wasn't as simple as only that bit that a child could grasp. Are you saying that's beyond you?

I'm saying that if your family were bombed by the IDF who were acting as morally gray as you seem to support, you'd be singing a very different song indeed. I'm saying that, at your comfortable remove, it's easy for you to dismiss innocent people dying.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm saying that if your family were bombed by the IDF who were acting as morally gray as you seem to support, you'd be singing a very different song indeed. I'm saying that, at your comfortable remove, it's easy for you to dismiss innocent people dying.

This level of irony should be illegal.

 

[Mycroft]

This level of irony should be illegal.

As should your level of trolling.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As should your level of trolling.

At least I troll intentionally.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm saying that if your family were bombed by the IDF who were acting as morally gray as you seem to support, you'd be singing a very different song indeed. I'm saying that, at your comfortable remove, it's easy for you to dismiss innocent people dying.

This level of irony should be illegal.

Indeed! It seems to me that when we try to read other people's minds we quite often reveal no more than our own.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Indeed! It seems to me that when we try to read other people's minds we quite often reveal no more than our own.

One of the more useful truisms.

 

[Sunstone]

This is very difficult.

If it were up to me, I'd award you the RF Understatement of the Year Medal.