Alceste
Vagabond
Blowing little kids to bits and pieces falls very far outside the scope of what I consider to be a complex moral gray area.
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The Hamas Argument
- Thread starter Mycroft
- Start date
Blowing little kids to bits and pieces falls very far outside the scope of what I consider to be a complex moral gray area.
xkatz
Well-Known Member
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
My view is that the IDF, as an actual military rather than a terrorist organisation, has a greater responsibility to the protection of innocent life. A responsibility I don't see it living up to at present.
xkatz
Well-Known Member
I don't understand where you're coming from. Hamas, while indeed a terrorist organization, is also the government of Gaza. It should be their duty to protect their own civilians as such, regardless of their legitimacy to the outside world. Why should the IDF be held more responsible when they don't govern Gaza itself whereas Hamas does?
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Except when both sides have been guilty of it. The difference is that one side kills civilians by chance while the other side kills them deliberately. Both are reprehensible, but one is a bit darker than the other, yes?
Also, as far as I'm aware, IDF's strikes have been purely retaliatory, so shouldn't the focus be upon the source of provocation?
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Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Is your argument seriously 'gaza doesn't care about its civilians, so why should Israel'?
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Is it really chance when you know that the hospital will be populated by civilians?
xkatz
Well-Known Member
Nice straw man.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. They need to be more responsible for Gaza because of that than the IDF should be (no I'm not implying that means that the IDF should get off scot-free). Any government, regardless of it's legitimacy to the outside world, is assumed to have the responsibility of protecting its people. That is one of the most fundamental reasons why government/national entities exist.
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Huston, we are now departing earth orbit...
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If you were to propose that the UN should depose Hamas, I'd give you a thumbs up. There are UN rules that would be in support of such an action.
You might also argue that all war is immoral - that general argument has merit.
But, your contention that Israel should not defend itself while Hamas commits war-crimes every time it launches a rocket from a civilian site simply doesn't hold any water. none.
NO, definitely not. At the end of the day, killers are killers, provocation be damned.
How can that be so difficult to understand?
I take it that you don't blame rape victims for being too sexy? How is this any different?
dantech
Well-Known Member
Very poor analogy... There's a difference between a person being to sexy, and a person who invites you her bed, only to later call it rape.
Gosh. I am sick and tired of all this bloodlust.
It is disgusting, so very disgusting. I might as well be talking with dogs.
It is disgusting, so very disgusting. I might as well be talking with dogs.
Luis,
Are you coming from a context of general moral stances, e.g. "war is never moral"? Or are you coming from specific actions taken in this particular conflict? Or some other perspective?
It seems you're coming from general moral stances - which is fine - but if that's the case your posts represent a jarring switch in context. I'd welcome a thread about how such a general moral stance might be applied to this situation...
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I've made it clear that both sides are guilty of some pretty heinous, inexcusable stuff. And with that in mind, attempting to demonize IDF while attempting to vindicate Hamas is hypocritical and disingenuous. Yes, if you were genuinely concerned by innocent civilians you would focus on whomever provokes and perpetuates such violence.
How can that be so difficult to understand?
I'm not going to humor such an asinine non sequitur.
Bloody hell!
There is nothing about "general moral stances" here. We have an asymetrical war. A crying shame. A two-sided butchery of innocent civilians.
Do I need to explain why that enrages me? Is this some kind of sick joke?
Because it is drowned deep in denial of known facts, perhaps.
Your privilege. But it is not a difficult thing to do, trust me.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Who here has a bloodlust, exactly? I know you're not referring to me, because I know you have enough intelligence to discern from my posts that I haven't attempted to condone, excuse, rationalize, or justify any of the civilian deaths caused by either side.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
What facts?
Yes, civilian deaths are never acceptable, but denouncing what IDF has done while being a cheerleader for those who've trained children to be suicide bombers and who've deliberately targeted civilians to be beyond hypocritical.
I think the rational thing to do is examine the situation objectively to determine the "lesser of two evils". You and others, however, choose to root for one side as if it were a sports team, presenting it as the hero and the opposition as the villain. The hero is only misunderstood when it comes to their misdeeds, whereas the villain drinks the blood of the hero's children while it cackles manically.
Alceste
Vagabond
You're repeating Israel's PR and ignoring Palestine 's. Straight up selection bias. Both sides of every conflict paint their own violence as retaliatory. This is no exception. It's up to you whether to accept that kind of bollox or not.
It's also nonsense to say Israel is killing civilians by accident. When you drop a bomb on a hospital full of people, it's no accident that those people die.