The Hamas Argument

[Quiddity]

If it were up to me, I'd award you the RF Understatement of the Year Medal.

A virtual cookie will do.

 

[Sunstone]

A virtual cookie will do.

Done! I just fruballed you.

 

[Levite]

And Israelis call for the death of Arabs.

The Hamas Charter includes:

For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.

... the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him

From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.” Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.

We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy:“Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind.” Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region.

Within the circle of the conflict with world Zionism, the Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the avant-garde. It joins its efforts to all those who are active on the Palestinian scene, but more steps need to be taken by the Arab and Islamic peoples and Islamic associations throughout the Arab and Islamic world in order to make possible the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war.“We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loves not corrupters.” Sura V (Al-Ma’idah—the Table spread), verse 64.

On the other hand, the (much shorter) Israeli Declaration of Independence includes:

The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

We appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

Yeah, that looks about the same....

 

[Sunstone]

Yeah, that looks about the same....

Well, it looks about the same to me, and I should know because I'm a moral authority on what's right and what's wrong. I know I'm a moral authority because I never experience any hesitation or difficulty pronouncing on who is absolutely right or who is absolutely wrong. And I never lose any sleep second-guessing myself. If that doesn't make me a moral authority, I don't know what can.

 

[metis]

That didn't actually answer my question.

Every person is entitled to a nationality. Exactly which nationality is someone who was born, raised, and now lives in Gaza? Feel free to give any answer you want as long as the answer is, in fact, a nation.

Jordan. When Palestine was partitioned, Jordan, which was 5/6 of the partitioned land, was to be for Palestinians.

 

[metis]

So you haven't heard of these things called "settlements" in the WB then? I'm surprised. It's a pretty hot issue.

I covered that on a previous post. With what you responded to above, it was in reference to the legal disallowance of Jews living in either the WB or GS according to Palestinian law.

 

[xkatz]

Many Israelis, including some at high levels of government, also have the intent of religiously motivated genocide. So why support them and demonize their equally deranged counterparts in Gaza?

This is a straw man. Genocide is not part of the Israeli constitution nor law; it's not government mandated whereas with Hamas it is seeing they are the govt. of Gaza and it's explicitly stated in their charter. Do we see Israeli troops massacring Arab Israelis in towns like Nazareth or Rahat?

I am against any type of genocide, but there is a difference between awful rhetoric by a handful of people and govt policy.

 

[Alceste]

The noble and peace-loving Hamas would be as brothers with the Jews of Israel if only given half a chance. Even now, they send rockets filled with candy and love into Israel, only to get murdered by the devil-Jews who reject their gifts of peace.

It's quite ironic how similar this sarcastic post sounds to the constant pro-IDF chatter sincerely offered by many on RF.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's quite ironic how similar this sarcastic post sounds to the constant pro-IDF chatter sincerely offered by many on RF.

You are simply wrong my friend: thoughtlessly and hatefully wrong. It's more than a little sad.

 

[Sunstone]

It's quite ironic how similar this sarcastic post sounds to the constant pro-IDF chatter sincerely offered by many on RF.

Could you quote some examples of that chatter? I'm not trying to say there are none, just that I must have missed what you're talking about if it's there.

 

[Alceste]

The Hamas Charter includes:













On the other hand, the (much shorter) Israeli Declaration of Independence includes:





Yeah, that looks about the same....

I judge them both by their behaviour. There is no question that Israel is by far the better propagandíst. Did they write this charter before or after forcefully driving thousands of Muslims out of Israel to establish a Jewish majority?

Thanks for the context for Hamas. It looks more than ever like they're talking about a war to control a piece of territory, not a desire to kill all the Jews on earth. Sounds like they want to drive them out while killing as many as possible, which is exactly what many in Israel openly hope for in Palestine. Israel is much better at pretending to be better. That point I will happily concede.

 

[Alceste]

Could you quote some examples of that chatter? I'm not trying to say there are none, just that I must have missed what you're talking about if it's there.

The sentiment that the IDF is noble and reasonable and Hamas is demonic and irrational is so pervasive in all these threads I'm sincerely surprised you've missed it.

Edit: did you watch the Real News network story on Israel's anti-anti-war movement I linked to? The violent elements in both countries are equally despicable, irrational and genocidal. I choose to stand with those on both sides who oppose violence. I can not pick one pack of maniacs and support them simply because Israel proper functions slightly more like the type of state I personally live in.

 

[Sunstone]

For the record, I don't trust the opinion of anyone in this debate who thinks he or she is absolutely certain to be right about the morals of either side. I don't care if they think they know for certain that the Israelis are right or that Hamas is right. I don't care if they think they know for certain that the Israelis are wrong or that Hamas is wrong. I don't think such certainty is warranted by the available facts. Maybe twelve years from now, when things we don't know today come out, we can all be a bit more certain of our opinions. But the phrase "fog of war" applies here. No one can be certain they know every relevant fact yet. And maybe no one ever will.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks it's clear-cut either way, isn't paying attention or is deluding themselves. I personally believe that in this case, the Israelis are relatively more justified than Hamas, than those who support Hamas, or than those who condemn the Israelis, but I don't find that an easy conclusion to come to, and I don't believe my opinion is infallible. Instead, my opinion is come to as cautiously as I can. I may be an idiot, but I'm a cautious idiot. However, I am sick of people insisting, Godlike, that they know for certain who is right and who is wrong. And I'm sick of people insisting that all the wrong is on one side and all the right is on the other. So far as I can see, such certainty is mere posturing, and if not posturing, then it's worse: It's self delusion.

I am beginning to suspect that, for many people, this Conflict is merely some kind of obscene entertainment. I am beginning to think that because the desire of some of us to put a white hat on one side and a black hat on the other -- just like a Hollywood movie would do it -- is so palpable it has a stench to it. And I think if there's any truth to that, then those who are treating this as a mere entertainment should be ashamed of themselves.

[/podium pounding]

 

[Father Heathen]

And what would you say to those who had killed off your entire family in order to do away with a bunch of militants?

What would you say to those who trained their own child to be a suicide bomber, who in turn killed off your entire family while they were aboard a civilian transit bus?

Let's not pretend that both sides don't have their hands stained. It's just a matter of examining proportions and determining the lesser of two "evils", if you really must declare one side "good" and the other "evil". It's not a comic cook with two-dimensional heroes vs. two-dimensional villains in a simplistic, black and white world.

 

[Sunstone]

The sentiment that the IDF is noble and reasonable and Hamas is demonic and irrational is so pervasive in all these threads I'm sincerely surprised you've missed it.

But do you have any actual quotes of that?

Edit: did you watch the Real News network story on Israel's anti-anti-war movement I linked to? The violent elements in both countries are equally despicable, irrational and genocidal. I choose to stand with those on both sides who oppose violence. I can not pick one pack of maniacs and support them simply because Israel proper functions slightly more like the type of state I personally live in.

No, which post did you link to it in?

 

[Father Heathen]

The sentiment that the IDF is noble and reasonable and Hamas is demonic and irrational is so pervasive in all these threads I'm sincerely surprised you've missed it.

Actually, from what I'm seeing, the two sides of the arguement are "the conflict is complicated, with shades of gray" vs. "Hamas is noble and reasonable while IDF is demonic and irrational".

 

[Levite]

I judge them both by their behaviour. There is no question that Israel is by far the better propagandíst. Did they write this charter before or after forcefully driving thousands of Muslims out of Israel to establish a Jewish majority?

Thanks for the context for Hamas. It looks more than ever like they're talking about a war to control a piece of territory, not a desire to kill all the Jews on earth. Sounds like they want to drive them out while killing as many as possible, which is exactly what many in Israel openly hope for in Palestine. Israel is much better at pretending to be better. That point I will happily concede.

OK, so you're just clarifying that you support a radical Islamist terrorist group, but you think there is a clever Jewish conspiracy to hide nefarious Jewish bloodthirstiness. Glad we got that settled.

 

[Alceste]

Actually, from what I'm seeing, the two sides of the arguement are "the conflict is complicated, with shades of gray" vs. "Hamas is noble and reasonable while IDF is demonic and irrational".

Then you have not been reading any of my posts, several of which stated unambiguously that I have no empathy for the violent and genocidal elements on both sides of the conflict, and support the people on both sides who are committed to peaceful negotiation and the natural right to autonomous self-governance for every cultural group.

Perhaps you have confused the numerous lazy and sarcastic straw man retorts to my posts for my posts.

 

[Alceste]

OK, so you're just clarifying that you support a radical Islamist terrorist group, but you think there is a clever Jewish conspiracy to hide nefarious Jewish bloodthirstiness. Glad we got that settled.

^perfect example of a lazy and sarcastic straw man in place of a thoughtful rebuttal.

 

[Alceste]

But do you have any actual quotes of that?



No, which post did you link to it in?

I'm on a phone at work. Easier to simply repost it:

Inside Israel's Pro-War Nationalist Camp