The hated muslim

[Djamila]

Djamila,

Yes exactly, And sometimes I will admit they think they are being insulted when they are not, because they did not quite understand what was said. And like I said I do not hate Muslims in general at all, I have many friends that are Muslim....But their are things that I do not agree to. Thank you.

It's okay - even if you did hate Muslims, you present your views respectfully and that's all that really matters to me. Xox

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I agree to a certain extent. We should always try to demonstrate to others the beauty of our faith, always. However, I don't think we're responsible for changing people's hatred. We should do what we can, of course - but I'm not about to spend an afternoon talking with two Christian fundamentalists who don't even know Allah is the Arabic world for God, that Christians who speak Arabic use as well.

That level of ignorance just turns me off from even trying.

Ya I agree with you...
You have to know when to talk (and for who )about Islam...cuz not every person will be having the same response to what you tell him..

 

[jacquie4000]

It's okay - even if you did hate Muslims, you present your views respectfully and that's all that really matters to me. Xox

Well thanks, but it does matter to me. That would put me in the spot of to many people that judge the few, instead of the whole. Just because I saw alot I did not like does not mean everyone is bad.
___________________________

 

[Sunstone]

...but I'm not about to spend an afternoon talking with two Christian fundamentalists who don't even know Allah is the Arabic world for God, that Christians who speak Arabic use as well.

That level of ignorance just turns me off from even trying.

I have a habit of passing by fundamentalists too. I've found in 50 years that it's very difficult to have a pleasurable, sensible conversation with someone who feels they are the only one with any truth on their side.

 

[michel]

I have to disagree, Paul. I think many of the Muslims on RF are anything but narrow minded. You might point to a blind spot that someone has and say, "See, this Muslim is narrow minded." But before you do that you should consider your own blind spots, because each and everyone of us has our own blind spots. The existence of a few blind spots does not make someone narrow minded.

I have a huge respect for the learnedness of many of the Muslims on this forum, and I'm rather surprised you don't see it yourself.

I agree with much of what you say...BUT ...here we are talking about perceptions that an entire group has for anyone outside that group - that is quite a big divide.
To address fullyveiled muslimah's OP:-

Why do you guys think non-muslims dislike us so much? I'm not talking about just having some misunderstanding. I am talking about all out hatred for Islam. Islam is generally referred to as a threat to the world and dangerous. Why do you guys think this is the case? Why is there such a push to get rid of Islam altogether?

I would answer this:-
A)We don't dislike you - we have nothing against you.
B)We do dislike -and I know that that goes for many Christians - the usual topic that is raised by Muslim Members - that of " You guys are "bad" - because you believe in more than one God".
I accept that Islam recognises Jesus of Nazareth as a Prophet...... However, Muslims will not accept our right to view Jesus as The son of God, who makes up the Trinity (another and deeper bugbear that you will not accept), together with God the Father, and The holy Ghost.

Even in Christianity there are those who will not accept "the Trinity" in principle, and then there are those who view the Trinity in a diffent way, so there is inter-Christian debate on that subject alone.
I believe (and this is my own personal view) -
A) you (Muslims in general-the apparent image) resent Israel; you want Israel to 'not exist'. What is more anyone that you believe supports Israel immediately becomes "Your enemy". i.e. "If you love our enemy, then we can't be friendly towards you"
B) Fundamentalist terrorists now make up a proportion of the Palestinian Government - those terrorists whose aim is to take Israel off the map.

We don't hate you - at least I don't - what I would like to see happen is that you can addopt the "O.K, we believe in different things - you respect our views, and lt us worship as we want to, and then we shall do the same for you"
As it stands, the "Norm" for Muslim Countries is to penalise non-Muslims; I shall never forget the reaction of one of your members who reacted badly towards the monthly published letter concerning Christian suffering in Countries where we are not allowed to follow our faith.
I look around me here, in England, and I see Mosques; I know that there are Mosques in most European Countries, as well as in the U.S.

You are not hated - but the more fundamentalist of your people make it hard for us not to feel that you are biassed against us.

To hear a British born and raised in England Muslim volunteering to go to Afghanistan to learn how to become a terrorist, omnly then to return to the land that gave them their birthright, and to want to kill and maim as many as they can, is a little hard to swallow................

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I agree with much of what you say...BUT ...here we are talking about perceptions that an entire group has for anyone outside that group - that is quite a big divide.
To address fullyveiled muslimah's OP:-



I would answer this:-
A)We don't dislike you - we have nothing against you.
B)We do dislike -and I know that that goes for many Christians - the usual topic that is raised by Muslim Members - that of " You guys are "bad" - because you believe in more than one God".
I accept that Islam recognises Jesus of Nazareth as a Prophet...... However, Muslims will not accept our right to view Jesus as The son of God, who makes up the Trinity (another and deeper bugbear that you will not accept), together with God the Father, and The holy Ghost.

Even in Christianity there are those who will not accept "the Trinity" in principle, and then there are those who view the Trinity in a diffent way, so there is inter-Christian debate on that subject alone.
I believe (and this is my own personal view) -
A) you (Muslims in general-the apparent image) resent Israel; you want Israel to 'not exist'. What is more anyone that you believe supports Israel immediately becomes "Your enemy". i.e. "If you love our enemy, then we can't be friendly towards you"
B) Fundamentalist terrorists now make up a proportion of the Palestinian Government - those terrorists whose aim is to take Israel off the map.

We don't hate you - at least I don't - what I would like to see happen is that you can addopt the "O.K, we believe in different things - you respect our views, and lt us worship as we want to, and then we shall do the same for you"
As it stands, the "Norm" for Muslim Countries is to penalise non-Muslims; I shall never forget the reaction of one of your members who reacted badly towards the monthly published letter concerning Christian suffering in Countries where we are not allowed to follow our faith.
I look around me here, in England, and I see Mosques; I know that there are Mosques in most European Countries, as well as in the U.S.

You are not hated - but the more fundamentalist of your people make it hard for us not to feel that you are biassed against us.

To hear a British born and raised in England Muslim volunteering to go to Afghanistan to learn how to become a terrorist, omnly then to return to the land that gave them their birthright, and to want to kill and maim as many as they can, is a little hard to swallow................

Israel is a very differnet topic...Israel is an enemy to most Islamic country, and it chose to be like this...The palestinian government Hamas is not fundamentalist, it never said we need Israel to disappear...It just aim to unit the clean politics and the legal resistance into one government...
Hamas never refused negotiating the israelian government...

Hamas agrees to negotiate, but not dropping down the option of resistance, and this is fair enough for people who are being attacked every day and night for no reason..
This is not terrorism...

You are not hated - but the more fundamentalist of your people make it hard for us not to feel that you are biassed against us

You are talking about very few portion of muslims...This is not the general case..

And indeed, we say ''"O.K, we believe in different things - you respect our views, and lt us worship as we want to, and then we shall do the same for you"

As it stands, the "Norm" for Muslim Countries is to penalise non-Muslims; I shall never forget the reaction of one of your members who reacted badly towards the monthly published letter concerning Christian suffering in Countries where we are not allowed to follow our faith.
I look around me here, in England, and I see Mosques; I know that there are Mosques in most European Countries, as well as in the U.S.

You can also come to Egypt, or Syria or Lebanon or any other country, and you will see churches where ever you go...I have lots of christain friends here in Egypt, and never had any religious sensitivity between us...I wish them Merry christmas, and in turn they wishe me happy Eid...

At least, in the islamic countries ( norm muslims countries), Christians never suffer from being bad treated...

 

[EiNsTeiN]

To hear a British born and raised in England Muslim volunteering to go to Afghanistan to learn how to become a terrorist, omnly then to return to the land that gave them their birthright, and to want to kill and maim as many as they can, is a little hard to swallow................

do you mean while the Soviet invasion?
cuz this is a very different case, these muslims you mentiond went to help Bin Laden and Taliban resist the invasion...and in this period, Bin Laden was a hero, even in the eyes of the American government

 

[Booko]

Why do you guys think non-muslims dislike us so much? I'm not talking about just having some misunderstanding. I am talking about all out hatred for Islam. Islam is generally referred to as a threat to the world and dangerous. Why do you guys think this is the case? Why is there such a push to get rid of Islam altogether?

Well, since you put this in Comp. Religion, I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

First, it's a serious mistake to think that non-Muslims will automatically dislike Muslims so much. Look around here -- you'll see there are a number of non-Muslims who will be your allies, because no matter religious beliefs, there are always people more dedicated to truth than a personal agenda.

Anyway, my impression from those I know around me (SE and Midwest USA) is that these are the major issues:

1. Sheer ignorance. I mean, you would not *believe* the level of ignorance here about Islam. It's truly staggering. Strangely enough, 9/11 gave me an opportunity to blow up a lot of myths out there about what Muhammad actually taught and what the Qu'ran actually says. My kids learned about Islam as part of a World History curriculum, and while it was very much an overview, it was accurate and well done, so maybe the up and coming generation will have a better foundation of knowledge to stand on.

2. Never underestimate the longevity of vitriol and misinformation propagated from centuries ago. You've seen it here as well as I have -- all that crap about Muhammad (pbuh) being a pedophile, and other equally ridiculous unhistorical things. Well, all that nonsense has a history from centuries ago, but it hasn't gone away any more than the stupidity propagated about Judaism has. If the crap about blood libel with Judaism has persisted all these centuries, it would be naive to think the lies about Islam will not have a significant shelf life.

3. Religious belief -- yes, there really are Christians who believe that Muhammad was a false Christ, a tool of the devil, or call it what you will. Some of these people will adopt an "live and let live" attitude -- but some will NOT.

4. Islam has a bad reputation in the West. Let's face it, Islam today has some bad PR problems to deal with. Yes, coverage of anything having to do with Muslims is shallow at best and slanted at worst, in that the things that are "newsworthy" are the very things that are controversial. The picture we get here of Islam is one of terrorists, people setting fire to embassies over mere cartoons, cheering on horrendous acts where civilians are killed, and so it goes. You don't see the average Muslim guy in the street or a mother talking about how they just want to support their family in peace, but those people are surely out there, and in much larger numbers. You also rarely see any Islamic scholar or leader of a moderate bent being interviewed on tv.


Here in the US, there are a few mitigating factors available. As odd (and not mainline Islamic) as Nation of Islam is, we have had black Muslims in our midst for some while now, and they have a reputation for being well-dressed, well-spoken, and law-abiding. This can work in favor of Islam at large, despite some of the rather odd ideas they have on other subjects.

Voters in Minnesota just elected the first Muslim to congress. Despite the efforts of a few ignorant folks to paint him as some sort of Arab terrorist (how bizarre) -- he's a native-born American that clearly does not condone violence, which kind of puts the lie to the nonsense that gets spread around and makes the people spouting the nonsense look stupid.

The higher profile Muslims in this country can be, the better for all of you. The extremes get all the press, because that's what sells newspapers and gets ratings. Go out and get as much press as you can for yourselves. Write letters to the editor. Participate on forums. Talk to your neighbors and let them get to know you.

When people see what real Muslims are like in real life, they get a very different opinion of Islam, and most will get over their fear of the different, though it may take some time. A generation, most likely.

 

[Booko]

If we're talking about America, I believe it's often just a continuation of fundamentalist Christian xenophobia, based in ignorance and a lack of genuine exposure to people who are different. Those who don't fit into this category, in my experience, often have indirect personal reasons to feel the way they do - ie Jewish nationalists, Armenian immigrants, etc.

No, oftentimes it's just ignorance in its own right, and someone having not looked at Islam for themselves, but rather depending on images we see on tv. Gosh, if all I knew about Islam was that people get their panties in a wad over cartoons, I would think Muslims must all be a bunch of violent nutters too. I took the time to know better.

And yeah, in the US, there is something of a racial element as well. If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh at the irony. Back in the 60s when our racial problems between black and white had our streets filled with riots, white people looked at Arabs as "white" and clearly superior to those awful blacks.

Now, we look at Arabs as lower then blacks. Funny how those stupid racial opinions can turn on a dime like that. I suppose when there are no actual facts to back up any of it, it's so much easier to have a sudden change of mind. :sarcastic

But most of the hatred I've encountered, from people of all backgrounds, has been based in ignorance. A small minority (5% maybe?) hold their beliefs with enthusiasm and would turn away evidence contrary to what they believe. The rest would be just shocked and pleasantly surprised by a week-long holiday to Turkey or the United Arab Emirates.

From what I hear from my fellow Americans who've been to Dubai, it's like a paradise.

(One family is moving there permanently in a few months. He works in Saudi Arabia regularly, but can't live there, so it's a better commute for him.)

 

[Booko]

One thing in particular is that, as a rule, Muslims do not come to RF to learn or share ideas, but rather, to instruct and to point out error.

Perhaps, but then, Muslims who are online anywhere have to put up with constantly defending their faith against some truly shopwarn nonsense that goes back to the Crusades. I'd cut anyone some slack for having to put up with that stuff -- it can get quite irritating.

I'm sure our fellow LDS users could also explain this phenomenon -- they get a similar treatment.

For example, in another thread FullyVeiled stated recently in another thread that if someone saw her walking down the street they would think a) there goes a "holy woman" or b) there goes a crazy lady. Oddly she didn't consider people like me who just look and think, "Hmmm. There is a person who has a deep seated need to demonstrate their moral superiority in an overt way." It simply wouldn’t enter my mind that I was looking at a supposedly "holy" woman or a "crazy" person.

I see burkhas and lesser coverings all the time at our local market. It can be off-putting, as many people will think "oh, I wonder if they would be offended if I say anything?" Even women will steer clear of fully veiled women, not out of fear, but because they honestly just don't know how to handle the situation.

If I'm standing next to a veiled woman over the broccoli stand, I start off with an inane remark about the veggies. The response will tell me if I should continue or leave well enough alone.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Well, since you put this in Comp. Religion, I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

First, it's a serious mistake to think that non-Muslims will automatically dislike Muslims so much. Look around here -- you'll see there are a number of non-Muslims who will be your allies, because no matter religious beliefs, there are always people more dedicated to truth than a personal agenda.

Anyway, my impression from those I know around me (SE and Midwest USA) is that these are the major issues:

1. Sheer ignorance. I mean, you would not *believe* the level of ignorance here about Islam. It's truly staggering. Strangely enough, 9/11 gave me an opportunity to blow up a lot of myths out there about what Muhammad actually taught and what the Qu'ran actually says. My kids learned about Islam as part of a World History curriculum, and while it was very much an overview, it was accurate and well done, so maybe the up and coming generation will have a better foundation of knowledge to stand on.

2. Never underestimate the longevity of vitriol and misinformation propagated from centuries ago. You've seen it here as well as I have -- all that crap about Muhammad (pbuh) being a pedophile, and other equally ridiculous unhistorical things. Well, all that nonsense has a history from centuries ago, but it hasn't gone away any more than the stupidity propagated about Judaism has. If the crap about blood libel with Judaism has persisted all these centuries, it would be naive to think the lies about Islam will not have a significant shelf life.

3. Religious belief -- yes, there really are Christians who believe that Muhammad was a false Christ, a tool of the devil, or call it what you will. Some of these people will adopt an "live and let live" attitude -- but some will NOT.

4. Islam has a bad reputation in the West. Let's face it, Islam today has some bad PR problems to deal with. Yes, coverage of anything having to do with Muslims is shallow at best and slanted at worst, in that the things that are "newsworthy" are the very things that are controversial. The picture we get here of Islam is one of terrorists, people setting fire to embassies over mere cartoons, cheering on horrendous acts where civilians are killed, and so it goes. You don't see the average Muslim guy in the street or a mother talking about how they just want to support their family in peace, but those people are surely out there, and in much larger numbers. You also rarely see any Islamic scholar or leader of a moderate bent being interviewed on tv.


Here in the US, there are a few mitigating factors available. As odd (and not mainline Islamic) as Nation of Islam is, we have had black Muslims in our midst for some while now, and they have a reputation for being well-dressed, well-spoken, and law-abiding. This can work in favor of Islam at large, despite some of the rather odd ideas they have on other subjects.

Voters in Minnesota just elected the first Muslim to congress. Despite the efforts of a few ignorant folks to paint him as some sort of Arab terrorist (how bizarre) -- he's a native-born American that clearly does not condone violence, which kind of puts the lie to the nonsense that gets spread around and makes the people spouting the nonsense look stupid.

The higher profile Muslims in this country can be, the better for all of you. The extremes get all the press, because that's what sells newspapers and gets ratings. Go out and get as much press as you can for yourselves. Write letters to the editor. Participate on forums. Talk to your neighbors and let them get to know you.

When people see what real Muslims are like in real life, they get a very different opinion of Islam, and most will get over their fear of the different, though it may take some time. A generation, most likely.

I agree with what you say...

although I have to confess that we (muslims) didn't recognize the bad reputation and the haterd before 9/11...After then we were like shocked since we suddenly discoverd that most people totally missunderstand Islam...I'm talking here about muslims in muslim countries such as me..

I (as an example) never participated to religious debating forums before 9/11, and after I did, i was shocked by the misunderstanding of Islam, which is sadly very spreading worldwide...

Our new generations, and kids are now taught to be good debaters in the future, and we are trying to teach them how to show good image for Islam worldwide...I hope the future will be good for all nations

 

[ayani]

i think one of the problems stems from the media's insistence on painting Muslims as "the other" with whom "the west" has nothing in common. there's this definate tendency to exoticize and objectify Muslims not as people but as political and religious wind-up toys. you don't often see one-on-one interviews with religious Muslims on news networks. you get plenty of commentary on Muslims and Islam from non-Muslims trying to make their points, but few voices that are Islamic themselves.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Why do you guys think non-muslims dislike us so much? I'm not talking about just having some misunderstanding. I am talking about all out hatred for Islam. Islam is generally referred to as a threat to the world and dangerous. Why do you guys think this is the case? Why is there such a push to get rid of Islam altogether?

1. People dislike Islam for three reasons in particular:

a) It's association with terrorism. Thousands of people have been brutally murdered in the name of Islam. When people think about Christianity in the Dark Ages, they feel pretty much the same way.

b) Like Christianity, Islam is a universal conversion religion. Thus, Islam and Christianity will always be at odds politically and culturally. Because they are "true-faith" religions, people will believe they are right and others are wrong. This makes for hostile and uncomfortable situations.

c) Islam is culturally antagonistic to the capitalist/individualist/liberated West.

While I dislike Islam as a religion and I truly hate Islamic terrorists, your average Muslim is no more dislikable than any other person. However, I view Islam as a threat to capitalism, individualism, and freedom. For that reason, I feel badly when I hear that Islam is growing. This is not a judgment about Muslims, but a judgment about the philosophies of Islam being at odds with my own personal philosophy.

Also, I have not heard anything that would lead me to believe that people (any significant number of people) want to get rid of Islam all together. That is the kind of thing that one Muslim tells another Muslim in order to raise each others blood pressure.

 

[Buttercup]

I agree - but I fault the Americans themselves for their views of Muslims. We all live in the same world. Why don't people in Thailand view Muslims so unfavorably? Why not in Spain? Both of these countries have had their share of problems with Islamic extremism but the same ideas expressed in the United States don't really exist.

The earliest terrorist occurrence I can remember since I've been on the planet is the Beirut, Lebanon bombings in 1983 where 241 US Marines were killed . We can add many more such events to the list from there up until 9-11-2001. Without wanting to get into a tit for tat debate, I think that illustrates at least a few of the reasons why some Americans cast a doubtful eye toward Muslims, although of course these are extreme examples. Ignorant people don't know how to differentiate however.

The American media, I believe, is designed to scare people. Almost every story is about something new to be feared - whether it's the hottest Christmas toy or Muslims.

I agree with this to some extent and is one of the reasons why I get most of my news online....by digging. Unfortunately, I imagine that the majority of Americans simply tune into their TV sets nightly for the world news. And truthfully, many people simply aren't interested in investigating steretypes further.

 

[Booko]

although I have to confess that we (muslims) didn't recognize the bad reputation and the haterd before 9/11...After then we were like shocked since we suddenly discoverd that most people totally missunderstand Islam...I'm talking here about muslims in muslim countries such as me..

This is what makes places like RF so great -- if we weren't able to be talking on here, I'd have no idea that anyone in your part of the world was shocked by the misunderstandings we have.

I think there's another part of this that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's the sheer humiliation and embarassment many Americans feel (but will rarely admit) because 19 Arabs have managed to do to this country what no one else has done since the War of 1812 -- attack the mainland US in a significant way.

We got the balloon of our arrogance popped that day, and yeah, there are people here who are mighty ticked off about that, and they've turned their negative emotions against Arabs and Islam. It's completely irrational, but then, humans are not known for being wholly rational. <sigh>

I (as an example) never participated to religious debating forums before 9/11, and after I did, i was shocked by the misunderstanding of Islam, which is sadly very spreading worldwide...

I read the Qu'ran first in my teens (uh...a while ago ) and when reading other books on history and theology was appalled at some of the incorrect information out there. The level of ignorance here in my culture is just...amazing. But the good news is, ignorance can be cured through education, so I'm glad to find many Muslims coming online to speak for themselves directly.

Our new generations, and kids are now taught to be good debaters in the future, and we are trying to teach them how to show good image for Islam worldwide...I hope the future will be good for all nations

Most problems can be solved through communication. I'm glad to hear the youth are being educated in this way. This will be a long process, but it's necessary to make the start so we can get to the goal of a world where people can practice their religion and raise their families without fear and hatred.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

i think one of the problems stems from the media's insistence on painting Muslims as "the other" with whom "the west" has nothing in common. there's this definate tendency to exoticize and objectify Muslims not as people but as political and religious wind-up toys. you don't often see one-on-one interviews with religious Muslims on news networks. you get plenty of commentary on Muslims and Islam from non-Muslims trying to make their points, but few voices that are Islamic themselves.

And as political and religious wind-up toys they can be demonised...yes I see that. There are massive differences between the civilisation blocs, the world's religions and levels of development but our humanity is what unites us all. When that's forgotten, when there is a failure to recognise people's basic humanity then things are bound to get nasty.

 

[Booko]

c) Islam is culturally antagonistic to the capitalist/individualist/liberated West.

I'm on RF kind of spottily at the moment, but I'd love to pursue this further in a different thread. Especially the antagonism to capitalism part.

 

[Sunstone]

And as political and religious wind-up toys they can be demonised...yes I see that. There are massive differences between the civilisation blocs, the world's religions and levels of development but our humanity is what unites us all. When that's forgotten, when there is a failure to recognise people's basic humanity then things are bound to get nasty.

Great post! Unfortunately, forgetting our common humanity is something humans do all too easily.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

This is what makes places like RF so great -- if we weren't able to be talking on here, I'd have no idea that anyone in your part of the world was shocked by the misunderstandings we have.

I think there's another part of this that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's the sheer humiliation and embarassment many Americans feel (but will rarely admit) because 19 Arabs have managed to do to this country what no one else has done since the War of 1812 -- attack the mainland US in a significant way.

We got the balloon of our arrogance popped that day, and yeah, there are people here who are mighty ticked off about that, and they've turned their negative emotions against Arabs and Islam. It's completely irrational, but then, humans are not known for being wholly rational. <sigh>



I read the Qu'ran first in my teens (uh...a while ago ) and when reading other books on history and theology was appalled at some of the incorrect information out there. The level of ignorance here in my culture is just...amazing. But the good news is, ignorance can be cured through education, so I'm glad to find many Muslims coming online to speak for themselves directly.



Most problems can be solved through communication. I'm glad to hear the youth are being educated in this way. This will be a long process, but it's necessary to make the start so we can get to the goal of a world where people can practice their religion and raise their families without fear and hatred.

Thank you for passing through my post...

The earliest terrorist occurrence I can remember since I've been on the planet is the Beirut, Lebanon bombings in 1983 where 241 US Marines were killed . We can add many more such events to the list from there up until 9-11-2001. Without wanting to get into a tit for tat debate, I think that illustrates at least a few of the reasons why some Americans cast a doubtful eye toward Muslims, although of course these are extreme examples. Ignorant people don't know how to differentiate however.

Every religion could pass through hard time, and remember that in the dark ages the situation was completely reversed, Islam was the biggest empire with all the science and technology and peace, while Europe was so ignorant and full of wars and terrorism...

(I would like to record a comment....Why was the American marines there in Lebanon??...just think about it)...we need to really define the term terrorism

</IMG>

 

[Buttercup]

(I would like to record a comment....Why was the American marines there in Lebanon??...just think about it)...we need to really define the term terrorism

From my recollection, the Americans were there as part of a multi-national peace keeping force during the civil war. Do you have another version of events I'm not aware of?