The hated muslim

[YmirGF]

While I agree this applies to individuals in North America, it does leave out that at least the US gov't (and some European ones as well) have done a bit of historical prodding of their own in the Muslim world, so we really shouldn't be so surprised if we get the odd claw either.

Perhaps we should just have let the Taliban go its merry way and turn a blind eye. Heck, maybe the US should just sell Iran some nukes and sit back and watch the fireworks.

I think Maro was right to point out that we would be better off if we stopped interfering in many ways in the affairs in the Muslim World.

Yes, you are right. We should just ignore Darfur. The government says the claims of genocide are wildly inflated so what the heck, eh. What are a few impoverished people in the big scheme of things? Otoh, what happens if the so-called "free world" acts against the government of Somalia and we eventually have a repeat of the WMD's or lack there of. Would anyone ever listen to us again? Perhaps we should have let Hitler become the new Caesar, eh? What are a few Jews, gypsies, political foes and gays, eh?

I know we'd be royally peeved if another nation or nations inserted themselves in our governmental affairs.{/quote]Well, that is certainly true. I can only look at my only politically apathetic country and wonder how ferocious we all would become if Hockey Night In Canada was taken off the air and the beer stopped flowing. There would be a civil war, lol. As Tolkein pointed out, Hobbits are very gentle and peaceful until they are cornered. Point taken though and it is a very good point.

That some leaders in that part of the world have turned our interference to their advantage, to distract their people's attention away from their despotic rules in our direction, shows that in some ways they are much smarter than we are.

My own slant on this is that our biggest error has been letting our corporate giants be our ambassadors. Their interests become "our" interests. I know, let's all boycott the oil companies. Throw on a few extra sweaters and ride bicycles through the snow. Yes, that might work... for a few minutes.

We would do well to reconsider how we operate in other countries of the world. We need not be wishy washy or be slight in defense of our own interests, but I can't help think of the line common among Landmark students: How's that working for you?

Indeed. But who do you ask the people or their governments? No doubt many young Iranians would tell you things privately that they would never mention in public for fear of official reprisals. Perhaps we need a few dozen less millionaires in our governments and a few boatloads more of the unwashed masses.

We've been doing pretty much the same thing for at least a century now. Um...it doesn't seem to be working too well. Maybe we should try a different approach?

I'm all ears. Got a plan?

(Though I rather wonder if the Chinese and

South America might be the next world powers if we undertook actions that would destroy Middle Eastern nations and severly undermine our own.)

Oh I do agree. My eyes are fixed on Communist China actually. South America is a fair ways from becoming an economic powerhouse just yet... unless you count the cocaine trade, that is. Even then though, there are some individuals who are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, so there is no telling what could happen if one (or more) of the drug lords set up their own Bill & Melinda Gates style philanthropic foundations. Talk about a real Robin Hood story, eh.

But... this is all somewhat off topic. By and large, Muslims MUST face their own inadequacies and become more pragmatic. We on the other hand MUST begin to pay closer attention to involving ourselves in the affairs of other nations and here Canada is as guilty as the US and England. I guess we need to hit a point where everyone agrees to stop hostilites. Everyone. Then, maybe then, we can all solve these problems to everyone's satisfaction. In some respects, for example I can't quite figure out why Israel and the UN just don't give Palestinians the lands they had agreed to in 1948 and be done with it. Just leave them alone. Why do they have to jump through any hoops to get what was alotted to them long ago?

I dunno Sharon, I know I don't have the answers, but I do know that as long as one person picks up a gun and starts shooting others, regardless of what side they are on, then nothing is going to change. I guess were not done "showing off" to each other yet. *sigh*

 

[maro]

Quite honestly, you don't want to know what will happen if Muslims (or anyone for that matter) really manages to upset us and make us scream for vengence. There won't be a lot left to cry over.

oh , i feel terrified
please god , help us , the americans ,are upset :shout

believe it or not paul ,they are the ones who are afraid to death , funny ,isn't it?

No real surprise there. No doubt you feel the nuking was immoral and that America should have sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives and killed every last Japanese person on their way to her arrogant, cozy and safe leadership. If America had not nuked Japan, it would have gone that way, an inch at a time and frankly there would have been nothing left to restore... Just a few blackened island graveyards.

No real surprise here either. Whatever argument you have to the contrary I can nail right between the eyes. Ho Chi Mihn was such a marvellous man wasn't he? A real sweetheart, he was.

i don't doubt the ability of some people to justify plain evil

Would you like the Taliban to run your country?

it would be my honour ,

i won't talk about Taliban , because you won't trust me

have you heard of a famous british journalist ,called Yvonne Ridley
she writes for the "sunday express" and' the independant" and other newspapers and magazines,
this lady went to afghanistan and was prisoned by taliban for some time ,

Ask her about Taliban

Hehe. Well, it is not like the Lebanese "army" could do a single thing to stop them anyway. Sorry you will never convince me that Hezbollah is a home grown phenomena.

no one is trying to convince you with anything
but what we are quite convinced with , is that they are muslims fighting for their country against savage invaders
and that is enough for us to respect and love them, and pray for them in their honourable struggle

You are right, I don't know you or the "us" you refer to. For all I know you could be an American or a fellow Canadian, although I doubt it.

i am an egyptian
and may be djamila was right about our pride,
but she was wrong about one thing , it is not because we are the sons of the pharous ,

but because we are the sons of the brave fighters who protected our umma , from the
mongol , the crusades ,and the army (that can never be defeated ) in october , 73

Actually by being supportive of Hezbully and Hamas you ARE defending these suicide operations

again , Hamas and Hezbollah are not terrorists ,
and they use their legal right to defend their lands, wether you like it or not

Well, I do apologize for that, at least you can write coherent sentences unlike some of your brothers and sisters that come to RF. It was wrong of me to make such a silly personal attack.

apology accepted ,
not a big deal , one can still improve it , right ?

In closing, you MUST understand that "we" do not hate Muslims or Islam. For the most part, the average North American really doesn't care about Islam in the slightest. I believe that most of us would just prefer to leave you alone and let you live in your own little world. However, when you prod a sleeping lion with a pointy stick you really have to expect to get the odd claw aimed in your direction.

and i don't hate americans too ,
and i am quite aware that generalization is only for narrow minded people,

but pardon me ,after seeing my muslim brothers and sisters being attacked,
i couldn't resist hating that bush and his charming Condaliza (is the spelling ok?)

a sleeping what ? :super: :help: , HahaHaHa

are you kidding me ? the american (Cats)....Oops...i mean lions , are hopeless in iraq and afghanistan

the real lions , are the ones who fight not fearing death ,even if they are less in no. and weapons,
you know why ? because they fight for a principle , they fight for protecting their lands , they fight for allah

Muslims, in general, MUST understand that you have ONLY awakened a sleeping giant. You ought to ponder what could happen if you manage to anger that giant. I really cannot stress that point strongly enough.

you have no idea , which giant that was awakened , and finally began to be fed up from his very long nap

 

[krashlocke]

but because we are the sons of the brave fighters who protected our umma , from the mongol , the crusades ,and the army (that can never be defeated ) in october , 73

1973? Wasn't that the year that Egypt and Syria invaded Israel on Yom Kippur (very respectful), and both ended up losing territory? Why do so many Egyptians claim this as a victory?

 

[YmirGF]

oh , i feel terrified

please god , help us , the americans ,are upset

believe it or not paul ,they are the ones who are afraid to death , funny ,isn't it?

Um Maro, I am in North America. No one here that I have met is "afraid" of Islam or the Ummah. We are however concerned about your more radical factions. But, believe whatever you wish. I suppose that you would not believe me if I told you that a lot of North Americans roll their eyes at Islam and just burst out laughing? That is not a very good indicator of the terror you seem to perceive.

i don't doubt the ability of some people to justify plain evil

I, for one, do not believe in evil to begin with. That aside I do agree with the sentiment however. Some folks will justify any behavioral aberrations to further their misguided cause.

it would be my honour ,

i won't talk about Taliban , because you won't trust me

have you heard of a famous british journalist ,called Ivon Radly
she writes for the "sunday express" and' the independant" and other newspapers and magazines,
this lady went to afghanistan and was prisoned by taliban for some time ,

Ask her about Taliban

I guess the hundreds and thousands of other reports are just plain wrong. Fascinating; I find it difficult to understand how anyone with the intelligence of a three day old wilted lettuce leaf could possibly want the Taliban to rule them. It is not as if the Afghani’s asked them to rule their impoverished country now is it? The people of Afghanistan had NOTHING to say about the matter. As they were never duly elected they are no more than common criminals and thugs imposing their religion of “no compulsion” on the masses under their grip.

no one is trying to convince you with anything

If that is the case, then pray tell, what is it that you are prattling on about?

but what we are quite convinced with , is that they are muslims fighting for their country against savage invaders and that is enough for us to respect and love them, and pray for them in their honourable struggle

How sad and a perfect example of spiritually bankrupt thinking.

i am an egyptian

and may be djamila was right about our pride,
but she was wrong about one thing , it is not because we are the sons of the pharous ,

but because we are the sons of the brave fighters who protected our umma , from the
mongol , the crusades ,and the army (that can never be defeated ) in october , 73

My goodness you are in for some rather rude surprises if you believe this. What you utterly fail to grasp is that America does not have the political will to end these conflicts. If your adversary was the Communist Chinese I think you would find that they would stop at nothing to accomplish their goal. Unlike "western" "powers" the Chinese are not especially concerned about "world opinion".

again , Hamas and Hezbollah are not terrorists ,

and they use their legal right to defend their lands, wether you like it or not

Oddly, I hadn't understood that Hamas or Hezbully "owned" anything. Do you have a copy of their land deeds and titles or do they "own" it because you (and they) say so?

apology accepted ,

not a big deal , one can still improve it , right ?

Not a problem. You do far better than I could ever write in your native tongue.

and i don't hate americans too ,

and i am quite aware that generalization is only for narrow minded people,

That is both true and untrue as it, in itself, is a generalization. Sometimes generalizations are perfectly suitable, other times they are just narrow-minded smoke-screens for ill conceived thinking.

but pardon me ,after seeing my muslim brothers and sisters being attacked,

i couldn't resist hating that bush and his charming Condaliza (is the spelling ok?)

Well, to be fair, and since I am Canadian, I didn't vote for the man. But I do admire him and think quite highly of Condi... to this day. Far better them than the thought of John "I have no plan" Kerry sitting in the White House.

a sleeping what ? , HahaHaHa

are you kidding me ? the american (Cats)....Oops...i mean lions , are hopeless in iraq and afghanistan

Again, you misunderstand how military operations are fuelled by political will. The Americans simply do not have the political will to "do the job" and did not grasp what they were getting into in the first place. They are learning though, although I fear it is already too late.

the real lions , are the ones who fight not fearing death ,even if they are less in no. and weapons, you know why ? because they fight for a principle , they fight for protecting their lands , they fight for allah

Indeed. Fanatics are definitely a wild card and are capable of any atrocities to accomplish their goal, as they believe (mistakenly) that some psychopathic god is "on their side". Likewise, there isn’t much one can do with a dog that has rabies, except “put it down”.

you have no idea , which giant that was awakened , and finally began to be fed up from his very long nap

I did not realize you could see into my mind. That is a rather stunning ability, especially with someone like me. Be cautious Maro, lest the Ummah be "put to sleep" again and this time it will never reawaken. It is your choice. The saddest part is that it doesn’t need to happen at all and I hope that it does not.

 

[jamaesi]

Maro, war is not a pretty thing. It was never intended to be. I certainly do not glory in the death of any child. Why not post some lovely images from Darfur? I never hear Muslims talking about Darfur? Why is that? When civilians are used as human shields one does have to expect unpleasant consequences. Fortunately I have a strong stomach.

Perhaps when I protest and take the actions I do against the horrors that are happening in Darfur perhaps I should scream loud enough so that you can hear me from Canada. Maybe photocopy the letters I write, track the money I donate, and record every other action I do just for your pleasure.

Deal?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Why do you guys think non-muslims dislike us so much? I'm not talking about just having some misunderstanding. I am talking about all out hatred for Islam. Islam is generally referred to as a threat to the world and dangerous. Why do you guys think this is the case? Why is there such a push to get rid of Islam altogether?

It is the sunnah of Allah for those who oppose the will of Allah. It has been the way for all those who brought the message. Why should we think our situation is any different when we are commanded to give the same dawah the Messengers and Prophets did.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

If you are sincere...

Gather all peace loving Muslims whose aim is not to coverty every Christian to Islam,

First thing is no self respecting muslim can convert anyone. Every muslim should know this and you as well. If a muslim feels he can do this then he is just as misguided as all those who do acts of terrorism.

and, amongst yourselves, denounce the terrorists who hide under the veil of Islam, and - if necessary - help the authorities to rid the West of those who would kill their innocent Christian neighbour.
I would reiterate the very good points made by these two posters........

Well inorder for that to happen a few things need to happen first. The West should stop occupying muslim lands, oppressing the people with sanctions and stealing their natural resources while creating civil wars within the infrastructure. And the UN and Israel need to stop killing palestinians and stealing their lands from them and dropping bombs on muslims countries scaring the people into to submission and causing them to do rash and foolish acts of quote un quote terrorism.

for this is the reason we have this form of response from radical Islamic groups is because of the oppression they are under.

Lets stop trying to blame the muslims for the actions of some of their brothers and sisters who are under the worst possible conditions, when food, medical supplies and basic human rights and needs are being denied to them. Lets stop the root of the problem. Stop putting gasoline in the room of ignorant people and cause chaos by lighting a fuse and then get mad because they react in a way you are not pleased with even though you are the cause of the reaction.

Let me kill all your family members in front of you, or rape your wives and daughters in front of you after I torture you and put you in a prison where all your basic human rights are taken away where you are not allowed any form of justice. Let me put up road blocks to hospitals and med - supply routes preventing you from treating your loved ones or getting them food and water when I dropped the bombs on you to begin with. Let me deplete your house of all its resources and steal your houses you have had in your family for generations and make you the beggers of society. Let me bomb your jobs and water ways and have military come and kick your doors in. And let us see how you respond. How would the west respond if the tables where turned if they were being oppressed and truly terrorized by the Governments of the world.

Truly how would you or anyone respond if you are going through what they are.

Additionally, stop Muslims from continually posting absurdities such as :-
Religious Education / Religious Topics / Religious Debates / Biblical Debates Proof Jesus Wasn't God

Since I have been a member here, this must be the fortieth such thread.......

But is it more absurd then the notion that he is God? Or ever can be God.

I mean really you guys claim yet have never been able to proof it through his or Gods or boths testimony.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Contrary to popular belief I most certainly do not hate Islam or Muslims. I do however view most Muslims I have encountered in daily life and here on RF and elsewhere as being a fairly narrow minded and often quite arrogant although that arrogance is often sublimated. One thing in particular is that, as a rule, Muslims do not come to RF to learn or share ideas, but rather, to instruct and to point out error. Meanwhile, when anyone uses a psychological mirror and bounces similar criticisms back at Muslims/Islam there is a tendency to react obstinately and a tad rude rather quickly. Frankly, like fundamentalists of any stripe, Muslims are not especially tolerant folks... in general.

That is not true I come to learn however many of you have a different intention and approach so you are not hear to learn about what is Islam, because you like everyone else when they are given something they alter it to their context or understanding or say well this is really what it means or what your prophet really meant when he said it.

So do not try to ut the blame mostly on us. You yourself are guilty of this. The one thing we like to point out is your errors in understanding our religion and a valid explanation or yours. Which you never give. No true muslim wants to argue it is our job to tell you about Islam and correct you in areas where you are mistaken in terms of your understanding of our religion. Which many of the West say. We say this verse in the Quran is a scientific miracle and then someone says no it isn't without even taking in to context how the followers of Muhammed understood it.

For example, in another thread FullyVeiled stated recently that if someone saw her walking down the street they would think a) there goes a "holy woman" or b) there goes a crazy lady. Oddly she didn't consider people like me who just look and think, "Hmmm. There is a person who has a deep seated need to demonstrate their moral superiority in an overt way." It simply wouldn’t enter my mind that I was looking at a supposedly "holy" woman or a "crazy" person. Methinks Muslims need to take a long careful look at themselves.

Again you are trying to tell exactly what is in the heart of her. You are trying to give her context maybe you misunderstood her. I understand the statement different then you.

so instead of trying to tell us what she said why don't you let her say what she said. The same goes for our religion. Let Muhammed tell you what is what.

And I hate to tell you but the majority of people do see it that way as being holy or crazy. Why because of the Propoganda of the issue in terms of jihad. In the eyes of a muslim a women who wears hijab is considered more holy why because she has embraced her religion. She has taken on the identity of being a muslim and must now be an ambassodor for our religion by showing the people the proper behaviour of a muslim but on the other hand many women who live with western ideals think the muslim woman are crazy because of the propoganda of them being oppressed.

It is clear her statements are general and not specific. Of course there are some who think contrary to that. But be honest enough to admit that there are many who feel this way.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I think a lot of Christians would address the very same questions to Radical Islamists.

And sadly, there are people who won't accept that RADICAL Islam and True Islam are NOT one in the same. The individuals who bombed the world trade towers weren't people like yourself.

There are hateful people in this world, of all walks of life who, by their actions, give people incorrect impressions of religions and cultures.

Islam isn't a threat to this world anymore than any other religions. Hateful and radical individuals are a threat to this world. These people aren't driven by goodness and faith. These people are driven by hate.

Take heart in knowing that there are many people, myself included who care very much about Muslims and wish the very best for them and CAN differentiate between Islam and hatred.

thank you, your understanding is what many lack and what the world needs. Masha Allah :clap:clap

 

[Sahar]

1973? Wasn't that the year that Egypt and Syria invaded Israel on Yom Kippur (very respectful), and both ended up losing territory? Why do so many Egyptians claim this as a victory?

Haha! :biglaugh: Funny piece of info!!!!
Egypt invaded Israel in Sini (which is a part of Egypt), and Syria invaded Israel in the Golan (which is a part of Syria). And Egypt could kick off Israel out of Sini as a result of 1973.

 

[YmirGF]

That is not true I come to learn however many of you have a different intention and approach so you are not hear to learn about what is Islam, because you like everyone else when they are given something they alter it to their context or understanding or say well this is really what it means or what your prophet really meant when he said it.

Well, if you came here to learn then you are an exception. I don't know how many times I have seen rudimentary posts of nonsensical babble created by Muslims. You do seem to be a slight "cut above" the norm. I am sorry if you feel centered out. In essence, my statements stand on their own merits. If the shoe fits; wear it.

I will agree MM, I have not come to ReligiousForums.com to learn about Islam. I already knew a great deal about your religion long before I made my first post here. I have most certainly changed some of my thoughts that were in error however most of the time I simply receive proof that my thinking regarding Islam is in fact "right on the money". In all fairness, I have little difficulty accepting the Islam of Jamaesi, Djamila or Laila. The simple fact is most of you cannot agree amongst yourselves on many issues. One person says one thing; another says something else. On some points you all agree, but it is a tiny bit confusing to the uninformed reader.

Frankly, I do not believe I have ever said, "Your prophet meant this...". I have indeed implied that your prophet got his message wrong however and do consider him to be a spiritual "con man". I am unlikely to ever change my opinion as it is one I have held for over three decades now... and counting.

So do not try to ut the blame mostly on us. You yourself are guilty of this. The one thing we like to point out is your errors in understanding our religion and a valid explanation or yours. Which you never give. No true muslim wants to argue it is our job to tell you about Islam and correct you in areas where you are mistaken in terms of your understanding of our religion. Which many of the West say. We say this verse in the Quran is a scientific miracle and then someone says no it isn't without even taking in to context how the followers of Muhammed understood it.

MM, the only reason I keep saying it is because Muslims seem to be very reluctant for taking responsibility for the mess the Ummah is currently in. In theory, some might conjecture that it is the will of Allah and not the brutality of "the western oppressors". If Muslims simply admitted, "Yes, we have made a great many mistakes too." then there would be a basis for realistic resolutions.

NOTE: You are in no position whatsoever to tell me about "god" and I do not follow any of man's primitive illogical religions and I never will. Muslims have a penchant for taking the sacred texts of Christian's apart and out of context, and yet go utterly berserk when anyone has to temerity to return the favor. Sorry, but it is difficult NOT to sense a distinct "double-standard".

In regards to the so-called "scientific miracles" cited within the Qur'an, I have yet to read a compelling argument that even makes sense. I have yet to see anyone explain these so-called "scientific miracles" in clear and concise terms. I suppose Muslims have to lower the bar of understanding to make it all fit. Even silly claims like the splitting of the moon are absurd beyond serious contemplation as the authors demonstrate quite clearly their own utter lack of scientific thought or anything approaching "reason". Therefore you can perhaps understand why some of us leap on these silly notions.

Understand, I am glad that Islam protected scientific thought during the dark ages, before the European "enlightenment" but sadly they have not really done anything since. I keep forgetting though, that that is our fault. Show me one Muslim scientist in a predominantly Muslim country who has made any scientific breakthroughs in recent centuries. If there are such renowned persons they are most certainly in very lonely company.

Again you are trying to tell exactly what is in the heart of her. You are trying to give her context maybe you misunderstood her. I understand the statement different then you.

I am? Ok, I see where you are coming from. I was simply restating what that dear lady said herself. FullyVeiled, whom I respect quite a lot, is welcome to correct me. The point is I simply see something she doesn't and it doesn’t matter to me in the slightest if some perceive her as "holy" or "crazy". I was trying to say how I felt, not how she felt. She was talking about perceptions, after all. *sigh* I take it you did not see my very clear compliment to her. By her own comments to me personally she was quite taken back by my compliments. Go figger, eh. SO, I guess I have it wrong... as usual. Are you sensing a pattern here? I am.

so instead of trying to tell us what she said why don't you let her say what she said. The same goes for our religion. Let Muhammed tell you what is what.

Oh, my dear friend, I do let Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] speak for himself, as that is the usual thrust of my criticisms. I don't need to put words in his mouth. I need only cite what he was reported to have said. The thing is I don't play the debate game in the manner that Muslims are accustomed to. That throws them off -- most of the time. If I was a zealous Christian speaking from a position of Islamic ignorance I would be an easy target. I don't, so you folks do not quite know how to handle me.

And I hate to tell you but the majority of people do see it that way as being holy or crazy. Why because of the Propoganda of the issue in terms of jihad.

Any pinhead knows that Jihad means "struggle" and specifically "inner struggle" (i.e. in the mind and soul of the believer). However it DOES also mean a "holy war" although that term is not a Muslim one. Hey, I am not the one that told my followers that he who fights for Allah's cause was favored by Allah. It isn't my fault if some of your brothers and sisters have warped the message now is it?

In the eyes of a muslim a women who wears hijab is considered more holy why because she has embraced her religion. She has taken on the identity of being a muslim and must now be an ambassodor for our religion by showing the people the proper behaviour of a muslim but on the other hand many women who live with western ideals think the muslim woman are crazy because of the propoganda of them being oppressed.

Well, there are always misunderstandings. Is it any consolation if I told you that I am somewhat offended by ANY outward religious symbols of ANY religion and consider them ALL to be primitive. Feel better now?

It is clear her statements are general and not specific. Of course there are some who think contrary to that. But be honest enough to admit that there are many who feel this way.

I am sure there is, but at least she is making a meaningful case. Tell me, MM... If we don't listen to you folks who are "in the know" then how are we to understand? I just ask that your comments be reasonable and logical. When they are not reasonable or logical then you can expect me to resist your thinking. Didn't Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] instruct you accordingly? Didn't he tell you to search out the correct answers and not accept things at face value? Am I missing something here?

As I expressed to FullyVeiled, I do NOT have to agree with her sentiments and neither does she need to agree with mine. The simple reality is that there are always more than one or two ways to look at things and people sell themselves short by insisting that their viewpoint alone is correct. If you pay attention to my writing here on RF you will find I am perhaps the only one who ends my posts with, "I could be wrong." At least I admit it.

One small nugget that Muslims, in general, seem to utterly fail to grasp is that they do not "own" "god". Your own books tell me that "Allah shows whom he wills, what he wishes, for whatever reason he deems." or something to that effect. The passage says NOTHING about being a Muslim to gain that "favor", but I most certainly could be wrong. :bow:

 

[maro]

Um Maro, I am in North America. No one here that I have met is "afraid" of Islam or the Ummah. We are however concerned about your more radical factions. But, believe whatever you wish. I suppose that you would not believe me if I told you that a lot of North Americans roll their eyes at Islam and just burst out laughing? That is not a very good indicator of the terror you seem to perceive.

well, may be you guys are not afraid ,but your government is , especially after 11/9
because they know no matter how many countries they bombed ,and how many innocent people the killed , Hatred must show itself oneday,

I guess the hundreds and thousands of other reports are just plain wrong. Fascinating; I find it difficult to understand how anyone with the intelligence of a three day old wilted lettuce leaf could possibly want the Taliban to rule them.

if there are hundreds of thousands of anit taliban reports in your country, then there is no wonder , i have to execuse you then ,

but i asked you to listen to somone ,
1) who went there by herself
2) was caught by taliban

so , she must have seen the picture more clear and truthful ,than others , right?

What you utterly fail to grasp is that America does not have the political will to end these conflicts.

Neither do we ,
untill justice is achieved

Oddly, I hadn't understood that Hamas or Hezbully "owned" anything. Do you have a copy of their land deeds and titles or do they "own" it because you (and they) say so?

they own the land they were born and raised on ,
too hard to understand ?

That is both true and untrue as it, in itself, is a generalization. Sometimes generalizations are perfectly suitable, other times they are just narrow-minded smoke-screens for ill conceived thinking.

when we talk about the traits of people ,
generalization is always wrong

Well, to be fair, and since I am Canadian, I didn't vote for the man. But I do admire him and think quite highly of Condi... to this day. Far better them than the thought of John "I have no plan" Kerry sitting in the White House.

the one who says , bombing Heroshima and Nagazaki saved lives more than it consumed ,
must admire bush and condiliza ,

Indeed. Fanatics are definitely a wild card and are capable of any atrocities to accomplish their goal, as they believe (mistakenly) that some psychopathic god is "on their side". Likewise, there isn’t much one can do with a dog that has rabies, except “put it down”.

yes ,the one who protects his land and family , God is always by his side
and since you r an athiest , i don't expect you to agree , or even show some respect

I did not realize you could see into my mind. That is a rather stunning ability, especially with someone like me. Be cautious Maro, lest the Ummah be "put to sleep" again and this time it will never reawaken. It is your choice. The saddest part is that it doesn’t need to happen at all and I hope that it does not.

i am sure that you are one of those who hope that it doesn't , it is not a secret
but believe it or not ,it has already began to ,
even though we still have huge challenges to face ,
but some signs make us more than optimistic ,

and also believe it or not, someone has reached its top point , and the curve is slowly declining

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Well, if you came here to learn then you are an exception. I don't know how many times I have seen rudimentary posts of nonsensical babble created by Muslims. You do seem to be a slight "cut above" the norm. I am sorry if you feel centered out. In essence, my statements stand on their own merits. If the shoe fits; wear it.

I try to exemplify what is correct and that is the authentic sunnah and the Quran. If I am someone whom you feel is slightly above that then continue to measure Islam according to the standard I aspire to achieve. Just because some muslims do this and that is not something you can generalize in terms of our religion. Because we have a very clear context of how and who to follow. It is not like christianity where you can choose whatever interpretation you like.
Yes sadly many of us muslims do it, but it is because of ignorance and it was decreed by Allah because the prophet said this is what will happen. So it is no suprise why we are in this state.

I will agree MM, I have not come to ReligiousForums.com to learn about Islam. I already knew a great deal about your religion long before I made my first post here.

Good but was your understanding in the correct context and taken from the true methodology or did you mix some of your opinions. And did you have all the information or just a part. You say you know a great deal. What about the life of the Messenger from beginning to end. Do you know who many of his followers were. Do you know who the ten who were given jannah. What about all the events surrounding the battles. Have you read the quran, studied the hadith sciences, read any books my true ulamah of islam. If not it is hard to say you know a great deal. Everyone thinks that till they really go in and study with a muslim all the different aspects of the religion. You can't just read a couple of books and think you have the basic knowledge of Islam. It doesn't work that way.

I have most certainly changed some of my thoughts that were in error however most of the time I simply receive proof that my thinking regarding Islam is in fact "right on the money". In all fairness, I have little difficulty accepting the Islam of Jamaesi, Djamila or Laila.

I am not asking you to accept the Islam of them. I am inviting you to accept the Islam of Allah and His Messenger Muhammed. I do not care what they do. I follow Muhammed and those who followed him.

The simple fact is most of you cannot agree amongst yourselves on many issues. One person says one thing; another says something else. On some points you all agree, but it is a tiny bit confusing to the uninformed reader.

Allah says we will disagree because He created us different. And it only matters what Allah and His Messenger think in terms of our understanding. How they interpreted it and implemented the laws of Islam is the only correct way.

They can do what they like. It doesn't matter what people say. If they have an issue they have to provide an evidence that supports their position. and the evidence must be understood according to the methodology of Muhammed for it to be valid when you speak about Islam. You cannot say well this is what I think when it has already been established and known.

Frankly, I do not believe I have ever said, "Your prophet meant this...". I have indeed implied that your prophet got his message wrong however and do consider him to be a spiritual "con man". I am unlikely to ever change my opinion as it is one I have held for over three decades now... and counting.

How did he get it wrong. What is his Message according to your understanding.
that is cool if you want to keep your opinion, but explain how he cot it wrong and in what way is he a spiritual con man.
Oh and please provide evidence

MM, the only reason I keep saying it is because Muslims seem to be very reluctant for taking responsibility for the mess the Ummah is currently in. In theory, some might conjecture that it is the will of Allah and not the brutality of "the western oppressors". If Muslims simply admitted, "Yes, we have made a great many mistakes too." then there would be a basis for realistic resolutions.

do not put the whole problem of the situation of it on our back. If the powers that be would stop policing the world with their guerilla and facist ideologies and trying to impose their system of living on people who do not want it then things will get better. If Israel and the UN stop oppressing people then these things will disappear. If they stop the oppression then the Islamist mentality will also stop.

NOTE: You are in no position whatsoever to tell me about "god" and I do not follow any of man's primitive illogical religions and I never will.

Sure i am if God told me to tell you.

Muslims have a penchant for taking the sacred texts of Christian's apart and out of context, and yet go utterly berserk when anyone has to temerity to return the favor. Sorry, but it is difficult NOT to sense a distinct "double-standard".

No Christian scholars have done that for us. And educated on on the mistakes within it.
Muslims did not have to do anything and i take the context that is given by the most knowledgable. If they say they changed them then they changed them. If you look at the differences of text and take what they know as fact. Then it is what it is.
They changed the books, they changed the word, This is a fact not context. the book contradicts itself this is a fact not a concept. The stories of what is compiled are not consistent this is a fact not a concept. I can go on.

In regards to the so-called "scientific miracles" cited within the Qur'an, I have yet to read a compelling argument that even makes sense. I have yet to see anyone explain these so-called "scientific miracles" in clear and concise terms. I suppose Muslims have to lower the bar of understanding to make it all fit.

Again because you are trying to put the understanding of our book in your context. If the Messenger understood it as a scientific miracle and taught it as such who are you or anybody to say otherwise. None of us is an authority in our religion.

Even silly claims like the splitting of the moon are absurd beyond serious contemplation as the authors demonstrate quite clearly their own utter lack of scientific thought or anything approaching "reason". Therefore you can perhaps understand why some of us leap on these silly notions.

Just because you did not witness it does not mean it did not happen. Did you witness the big bang.

As I expressed to FullyVeiled, I do NOT have to agree with her sentiments and neither does she need to agree with mine. The simple reality is that there are always more than one or two ways to look at things and people sell themselves short by insisting that their viewpoint alone is correct. If you pay attention to my writing here on RF you will find I am perhaps the only one who ends my posts with, "I could be wrong." At least I admit it.

You can say there is more than one way of looking at things, but that may be in things other than religion. You cannot look at Islam in two different ways. there is one path, one clear way, one understanding. If you go outside of that then you are in definite error. You may be able to do that to Christianity and others but you cannot do that to Islam.

One small nugget that Muslims, in general, seem to utterly fail to grasp is that they do not "own" "god".

No true muslim would ever say he did. come on that is a ridiculous statement. When do muslim claim they own "god"

Your own books tell me that "Allah shows whom he wills, what he wishes, for whatever reason he deems." or something to that effect. The passage says NOTHING about being a Muslim to gain that "favor", but I most certainly could be wrong. :bow:

What do you mean exactly shows whom He will what, and unfortunately you are wrong about gaining favor. But that OK

could not answer everything ran out of characters.

 

[!Fluffy!]

If we're talking about America, I believe it's often just a continuation of fundamentalist Christian xenophobia, based in ignorance and a lack of genuine exposure to people who are different. Those who don't fit into this category, in my experience, often have indirect personal reasons to feel the way they do - ie Jewish nationalists, Armenian immigrants, etc.

America is the most tolerant country in the world ideologically and in practice. The earliest European settlers came here to escape state sanctioned religious persecution under the Church of England.

America is FAMOUS for being the melting pot of the world, and our diversity is unmatched. Anyone who has not had the pleasure of walking the streets of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Los Angeles or any of our major cities can have no true concept of this reality, nor of the size or scope of this nation or its diversity.

Since its founding, America has attracted and welcomed millions of immigrants from all over the world clamoring to live here, and the flood has never stopped to this day.

That in itself speaks volumes.

Regarding the common liberal misuse of the word 'xenophobia': It's common for those whose position is untenable to reach for cheap tactics of linguistic obfuscation, and for those who don't live here to be tempted to deliberately confuse a nationalistic pride with xenophobia. As we all know, xenophobia is the irrational fear of strangers or foreigners or of anything strange or foreign - taken as such, I see this as nothing more than name-calling, having no historical or factual basis.

 

[†Lilithâ€]

I do not hate Muslims at all. I can not account for all parts of the Muslim world, I was married to a Muslim for 7 years. He was from Egypt. I must say though that they are quite the stubborn bread of men. I think alot of them do not wish to interact with us, that is a problem. When they tend to say something it is their way, and nothing you say is going to change their mind. This in itself is fine everyone is welcome to their own opinion. But for the most part they do not want to hear your opinion because what they have to say is right. That is what I found difficult. Plus alot of things in their religion and culture are so much different then ours. For the most part all of his freinds felt american women in general were sluts. This made me very mad. But at the same time I admired the way he took care of his family back home and how much family and religion meant to him. I truely believe if they can not adapt to the people and culture in america they do not belong here they should go back home. I have no problem that they are in america but they also need to respect our way of life. Like I said I just know of the Egyptian men I met and how they were. In public they can be quite funny and charming. But from what I have seen when they marry american women they treat them like dirt. I only knew a few that stayed faithfull and were nice to their american wife. Sorry I am sure their are many who are good and faithfull, but I have not seen it here.

I personally agree with you, Jacquie. I'm sure there are Muslims that are all around good-people. Not to debate, but I have seen spamming on Yahoo! and many many other sites that all said things like "Allah will crush you all!" etc. I personally never bought into the politically correct idea that "they're all just misunderstood". For instance, after Saddam was excuted, there was someone (I don't have a working link :sorry1: ) that was quite livid, and remarked to a reporter, "I have 5 children, and I will teach them to take revenge on Americans." This would seem to go against the peaceful idea.

I have actually chatted on Yahoo! IM with a Muslim who would repeatedly ask me questions like "What is your cell phone number?" and "What is your address?" and "Are there synagogues near you?" I blocked him after he began insisting that I provide him with the IM name of one of the women on my contact list. I asked him why, and he repeatedly informed me that he "just wanted to talk to her". He got increasingly irritated with me when I refused to give out the IM of my friend. This never sat right with me; it was very strange.

Also, there is a right-wing radio show in my area, and a Muslim called in to inform the DJ that there was going to be some sort of "action" taken in Orlando. Several people (Americans) called in after that and expressed not only concern but anger at the threat. Several of them made remarks (if I remember correctly) that implied without question that if their homes and family were threatened, they were not above manslaughter to defend their loved ones from any threat. This would indicate that, spoiled though we Americans are (by spoiled I mean that there are so many of us who complain about America, although we have it better than any country in the world) in a time of war and other upheaval, there are many citizens that would have no qualms about protecting our homefront, did the need arise. This would indicate a lack of fear about Taliban threats--in fact, outright defiance, a refusal to lay down and die without a hard fight. Muslims being hated is not exactly it, imho; it is more that the radicals hate us, and we react with anger and hatred to these radicals because they threaten our homes and families.

Peaceful Muslims are certainly welcomed, all the more if they are welcoming to us as well; but the problem is, how do we know who is peaceful, and who has a bomb strapped to their bodies? This worry would certainly contribute to the "hatred".

 

[maro]

I personally agree with you, Jacquie. I'm sure there are Muslims that are all around good-people. Not to debate, but I have seen spamming on Yahoo! and many many other sites that all said things like "Allah will crush you all!" etc. I personally never bought into the politically correct idea that "they're all just misunderstood". For instance, after Saddam was excuted, there was someone (I don't have a working link :sorry1: ) that was quite livid, and remarked to a reporter, "I have 5 children, and I will teach them to take revenge on Americans." This would seem to go against the peaceful idea.

see Abo gharib , the prison where the iraqi people where tortured , and then come to talk to me about the Peaceful idea

I have actually chatted on Yahoo! IM with a Muslim who would repeatedly ask me questions like "What is your cell phone number?" and "What is your address?" and "Are there synagogues near you?" I blocked him after he began insisting that I provide him with the IM name of one of the women on my contact list. I asked him why, and he repeatedly informed me that he "just wanted to talk to her". He got increasingly irritated with me when I refused to give out the IM of my friend. This never sat right with me; it was very strange.

what a very touching story ,
and the lesson we get from it ( muslims are strange , and may be terrorists , so one can't be safe when they r around or even when he chats with them,)
the same old story , Ha?

This would indicate a lack of fear about Taliban threats--in fact, outright defiance, a refusal to lay down and die without a hard fight. Muslims being hated is not exactly it, imho; it is more that the radicals hate us, and we react with anger and hatred to these radicals because they threaten our homes and families.

if some muslims hate you ,it's because you planted the seeds of hatred , by supporting the zionists ,who kill our children and knock down our homes , evey day ,

and instead of relieving this hatred , you made it worse by attacking these countries

too concerned about your homes and families ? what about our homes and families ?
are you the only ones on earth who have the right to live a safely ,and every one else must go to hell ?

Peaceful Muslims are certainly welcomed, all the more if they are welcoming to us as well; but the problem is, how do we know who is peaceful, and who has a bomb strapped to their bodies? This worry would certainly contribute to the "hatred".

i have a nice solution to this problem ,
if attacking iraq and afghanistan didn't work , why don't you guys eradicate all the muslim americans ,
because i have heard that one of them has reached the congress ,
and i am afraid that he is going to explode the congress or something

 

[jacquie4000]

I am not going to sit here and quote everything above. I do not agree with things being said on both sides....I was talking about Muslims as individuals and never even mention terrorist acts at all. That was not the topic of my conversation. But I do feel alot of Muslims need to be more open to those individuals that are open to them. We do not need to agree on everything, we are of different faiths. But we can respect one another. I just feel sometimes the Muslims are to smug in their answers and sometimes to prideful, thus not letting them hear or see the full picture.

 

[Sahar]

"I don't know how many times I have seen rudimentary posts of nonsensical babble created by Muslims."
I wish if i can understand why ur insisting on talking in such way!!! i got sick of it! Do u get pleasure from sticking the words "babble", "narrow minded" to "muslims"?? do u really enjoy this?
Guess what? i have seen tons of "rudimentary" posts of "nonsensical" "babble" created by non-muslims on this forum but i don't say yeah members of group x r narrow minded or even link this to one's religion. Regardless of the religion, you will see many who make such rudimentary posts, moreover, sometimes anyone is liable to utter some ridiculous n senseless words, we are not angels to think or to speak perfectly all the time. And i have only one wish; i hope every one consider his own flaws first be4 he begins to count others' drawbacks.

"Understand, I am glad that Islam protected scientific thought during the dark ages, before the European "enlightenment" but sadly they have not really done anything since. I keep forgetting though, that that is our fault. Show me one Muslim scientist in a predominantly Muslim country who has made any scientific breakthroughs in recent centuries. If there are such renowned persons they are most certainly in very lonely company."
ha! i told you Mr.. ur exact same way in offending others! i don't really want to repeat my above words!
Plus i don't know what u really mean by "a predominantly Muslim country"; if it was "not a predominantly Muslim country", wud this make much difference?!

"The simple fact is most of you cannot agree amongst yourselves on many issues. One person says one thing; another says something else. On some points you all agree, but it is a tiny bit confusing to the uninformed reader."
I doubt that you wud find a muslim who has a copy of his bro's thinking, muslims can disagree upon many things yet they must agree on the basics....This is very clear when you read different scholars' opinions....

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

America is the most tolerant country in the world ideologically and in practice. The earliest European settlers came here to escape state sanctioned religious persecution under the Church of England.

America is FAMOUS for being the melting pot of the world, and our diversity is unmatched. Anyone who has not had the pleasure of walking the streets of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Los Angeles or any of our major cities can have no true concept of this reality, nor of the size or scope of this nation or its diversity.

Since its founding, America has attracted and welcomed millions of immigrants from all over the world clamoring to live here, and the flood has never stopped to this day.

That in itself speaks volumes.

Regarding the common liberal misuse of the word 'xenophobia': It's common for those whose position is untenable to reach for cheap tactics of linguistic obfuscation, and for those who don't live here to be tempted to deliberately confuse a nationalistic pride with xenophobia. As we all know, xenophobia is the irrational fear of strangers or foreigners or of anything strange or foreign - taken as such, I see this as nothing more than name-calling, having no historical or factual basis.

That mentality of tolerance among many others ideas on which America was founded on and what the american people try to emulate within society is not a direct reflection on what the foreign policy of America and its allies are giving to the rest of the world

They aren't tolerant... more totalitarian

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

There is no denying that the american government has done anything except exacerbate situations that may already exist in foreign countries. With all due respect 9/11 was nothing compared to the damage done on people around the globe. America has bombed more people than any other country to date because they have the military might to do so.

Let's look at the case of sanctions on Iraq before this war. It had a devastating effect on the civilians of the entire country by grinding the economy to a halt. Then they institute the food for oil programme. This did little to relieve the situation. The food was being given, but the people couldn't always eat that food. Because of its scarcity, food became a currency for other essential items like clothing and places to stay. The situation got so bad, that other countries like Kuwait (who wa a victim of Iraqi aggression) began to plead with the U.S and UN to lift the sanctions. This was done very slowly. The excuse was that it was done to place pressure on Saddam's regime to remove themselves from power. However it falied miserably in that regard. In just three years the US was able to remove Saddam forcibly from power. They could have done that a long time ago. Yet it was the US who put Saddam in power in the first place, go figure. You don't think this government knew what it was doing? They just didn't care thats all. So what about the little children and the women and men. Who cares if they die.

Only a blind person thinks that America is fighting this war for the good of the people of the world. America is good at aggressively oppressing people, and then want the oppressed to be peaceful when they want to rise up against that. Look at the civil rights movement for black people. Violently, we were brought to this country, violently made to slave labor, and then when its usefullness was exhausted we were let go...violently. Then when black people were fighting for their rights we were told to do it non-violently. When some black people did react with anger, they were made examples of in the media and with their lives. Peaceful marches were held by both black people and white people who decried the racism and violence perpatrated against blacks. Yet these people would be brutally attacked....by the police. The police is a governmental law enforcement agency not a private one. So it is the government who is at fault. They were then and they are now. No reason for them to change their tactics when they work so well. This was one of the greatest flagrant violation of human rights in the modern world, yet no sanction was ever placed on the US for tha by the UN. No UN army came to save the day, no one did anything of the sort.

3000 people more or less lost their lives in the attacks on WTC. In the war on terror, way more than that have lost thiers. Even if America was going for the eye-for-an-eye deal, they have crossed the boundaries. To catch some criminals, America is willing not only to sacrifice the lives of civilians abroad, but the lives of its soldiers as well. US has occupied every country they have ever defeated in war. Why? Why do these people need the US military to watch them? Which of the citizens of the US would tolerate the occupation of a foriegn military? Which presidential administration would tolerate it? None of us would. Yet people in other countries are told that they must tolerate it peacefully.