The Heinz Dilemma

[Mock Turtle]

Interesting because according to Kohlberg, only 15% reach level 3 (post-conventional).

I'd like to see this in practice rather than in theory, and then I might change my mind.

 

[LuisDantas]

BTW, this subject connects to the very interesting subject of Spiral Dynamics.

Moral perception is subject to one's stage of personal development.


By my understanding, Pre-Conventional moral thinking as described in the video roughly corresponds to the more incipient levels of values, up to and including red. Conventional, to the blue level. Post-conventional begins to insinuate itself at Orange and fully develops at Turquoise.

 

[Mock Turtle]

BTW, this subject connects to the very interesting subject of Spiral Dynamics.

Moral perception is subject to one's stage of personal development.


By my understanding, Pre-Conventional moral thinking as described in the video roughly corresponds to the more incipient levels of values, up to and including red. Conventional, to the blue level. Post-conventional begins to insinuate itself at Orange and fully develops at Turquoise.

This latter being where you are both the problem and the solution?

 

[LuisDantas]

This latter being where you are both the problem and the solution?

We are ever both the problem and the solution.

It just takes a while to fully accept it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We are ever both the problem and the solution.

It just takes a while to fully accept it.

You mean like matter and anti-matter - better not get them together then.

 

[LuisDantas]

You mean like matter and anti-matter - better not get them together then.

Uh? Sorry, I am not seeing the parallel.

 

[Nous]

Utter nonsense. Recognizing the objective moral fact (or "universal ethical principle") that slavery is immoral is how slavery became illegal in the US. It did not lead to anarchy.

But that is not a universal principle because everyone did not share the same sentiments.

(1) It isn't necessary for everyone to agree about what are objective moral facts (or "universal ethical principles") in order for there to be objective moral facts, in the same way that it isn't necessary for everyone to agree about what are the objective facts of chemistry in order for there to be objective facts of chemistry.

BTW, can you name all of what you are referring to as "universal ethical principles"?

(2) Who disagrees that slavery is immoral? There is no nation on earth today where chattel slavery is legal, as it was in the US (and elsewhere).

 

[YmirGF]

Why isn't there an option to not steal and simply let nature take its course?

Also, in areas such as outlined in the video, many Pharmaceutical companies will give the drug away or sell at a reduced price if asked.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Uh? Sorry, I am not seeing the parallel.

That was the inner monkey being cheeky.

 

[LuisDantas]

That was the inner monkey being cheeky.

Fair enough. It is just that usually I get the general gist of the joke, and this time I did not.

Of course, I happen to be dumb, so that is explanation enough.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why isn't there an option to not steal and simply let nature take its course?

Also, in areas such as outlined in the video, many Pharmaceutical companies will give the drug away or sell at a reduced price if asked.

The example is just an illustration.

While it is interesting and even important to note that there are various natures of internal dynamics that may change its applicability in practice, the general situation is still all too common and enlightening.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Fair enough. It is just that usually I get the general gist of the joke, and this time I did not.

Of course, I happen to be dumb, so that is explanation enough.

Well there was a loose comparison - the problem and the solution meeting (existing as one) and then evaporating, just as matter and anti-matter are supposed to do when combined. ??

 

[LuisDantas]

Well there was a loose comparison - the problem and the solution meeting (existing as one) and then evaporating, just as matter and anti-matter are supposed to do when combined. ??

Somewhat less explosively and being less than separated in the first place, yes.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Somewhat less explosively and being less than separated in the first place, yes.

Yes, I think that sums it up.

 

[LuisDantas]

That seems actually a bit Taoistic in form to me. The excesses are the very trigger of the learning needed to best deal with them.

 

[BSM1]

Utter nonsense. Recognizing the objective moral fact (or "universal ethical principle") that slavery is immoral is how slavery became illegal in the US. It did not lead to anarchy.

Talk about utter nonsense. Outrage over slavery was barely secondary to the curbing of state's rights and preserving the union. Even Lincoln said as much.

 

[Nous]

Talk about utter nonsense. Outrage over slavery was barely secondary to the curbing of state's rights and preserving the union. Even Lincoln said as much.

Abolitionists arguments were that slavery is immoral, not that states should be deprive of some "right".

BTW, Lincoln's comments about preserving the Union concerned the war, not justification for the Thirteenth Amendment.

 

[BSM1]

Abolitionists arguments were that slavery is immoral, not that states should be deprive of some "right".

BTW, Lincoln's comments about preserving the Union concerned the war, not justification for the Thirteenth Amendment.

Then why did he wait over two years into the war to sign the Emancipation Act? Also, all the abolitionists arguments were just rhetoric until the actual war started.

 

[LuisDantas]

@BSM1 , I take it that you are somehow not kidding?

That shows a lack of faith in the ability of people to empathize with each other. I think you will learn that it far surpasses your expectations if you decide to look into it.

 

[Nous]

Then why did he wait over two years into the war to sign the Emancipation Act?

From the outset, Lincoln did not believe the war would last even 2 years, and the Emancipation Proclamation had a primary military purpose, only pertaining to slaves in those states in rebellion against the Union. The Proclamation wasn't an abolitionist maneuver or strategy.