The hellfire belief

[fallingblood]

That's entirely possible in mainstream Christian theology: a lifelong murderer has a last-minute change of heart, accepts Christ, and goes to Heaven having never answered for his crimes.

But you're presenting a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities beyond eternal bliss and eternal torment.

That is actually a problem I have with the Christian hell. Many who would deserve to there can get a get out of jail free ticket.


I personally like the idea of some type of divine justice. But I think it should be all inclusive. If I am a dick in life, and do horrible things, I deserve to be punished. It doesn't matter if I happen to choose the right god, I still deserve punishment, otherwise, it's not really justice.


But then again, I do reject the idea of hell.

 

[Gloone]

If a person is charitable, helps orphans, and follows a saintly rather than sinful life, then they are actually accepting God -- because God lives in those actions. Even if a person has never heard of him by ear.

I agree with this statement. It is entirely possibly for someone to understand and know god without ever picking up a holy book, knowing what religion is, and without ever hearing the word GOD.

 

[Luminous]

Justice is not a codified form of revenge. I think justice needs to prevail, and it has nothing to do with revenge. It is only revenge if justice was only to be served to those who had wronged me. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I would like to see a complete justice, where people who committed atrocities (like Hitler, who did nothing to me) are punished.

It has nothing to do with revenge.

Justice is a code name for what people see as fair revenge. fair revenge for me, fair revenge for them.
It isn't very fair to torture poor unstable Adolf for eternity.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Ironically Adolf Hitler killed many of my ancestors and even I agree it wouldn't be right to torture him for eternity. Yes he was unstable, and I've actually found myself pitying the man after reading many of his warped ideas in his books.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm sorry if I came off as chauvinistic, I was not meaning to. I was simply making a point that the rejection of God is not simply saying no. I don't think my words are comparable to a terrible Vietnam-era saying, I'm not forcing anyone to be anything. But I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

I don't think it was intentional, but I think there is a chauvinism built into that statement: if a person is good, then they're really religious at heart? IMO, that's a demeaning load of garbage.

It is mostly through Christian and religious charities that the poor were fed in the United States before the New Deal,

Well, of course. In a society where religion permeates everything, religion will permeate good deeds... but it permeates bad deeds as well.

For instance, the Catholics set up the Knights of Columbus as a fraternal service organization in order to help their community... but this was only necessary because Catholics were denied entry into Protestant-controlled trade unions and fraternal organizations.

and it was the Christian movement that led a brave fight against slavery - Abolitionism. So there is a lot of lvoe and charity in the God of the Bible inspiring people to do goo deeds.

And who did the abolitionist movement fight against? Other Christians.

I think it's interesting that at the height of slavery, one of the biggest slave owners in the Carribean was the Church of England.

You're speaking of born-again people, accepting Christ and being "saved." That is a rather new trend, its not mainstream in Christianity - though perhaps America.

It's not just a new trend. The Gospels talk quite a bit about how people will feel that the situation in the Kingdom of Heaven is inequitable. For instance, take the parable of the workers in the vineyard in Matthew 20: the workers who worked all day grumbled when they got paid the same as the workers who came only for the last hour.

 

[fallingblood]

Justice is a code name for what people see as fair revenge. fair revenge for me, fair revenge for them.
It isn't very fair to torture poor unstable Adolf for eternity.

Poor unstable Adolf? I hardly doubt that. He knew exactly what he was doing.

If that is what you see in justice, then I have to say your definition of the term is greatly misconstrued. It has nothing to do with revenge.

 

[839311]

Could something good come from it? Possibly.

This is one of the problems I have with faith. It often prevents a person from thinking rationally. When a person comes to a problem for which they have no explanation, they just stop, and say something like, "Well, I don't understand why, but God is good so there has to be a reason." Or they say possibly. Use your head! Is there or isnt there anything good that can come of it? Its not a difficult question. Your tormenting someone forever. Soooooo... No. There isnt anything good that can come of it. You'd have to either be completely insane to think there is, or a person whose rationality has been compromised by his faith. I can relate. I've been there. But think about. Tormenting someone forever... Think about it!

Also, we have to think that if an all knowing God would create something (because really, if we accept the Christian hell, then accepting the Christian God is somewhat of a must here), there must be some purpose.

If that were true, which of course it is not, then the purpose would clearly be to satisfy Gods thirst for causing others suffering. Every being, without exception, who wants to cause others eternal torment... is a complete psychopathic freak. And that, as of right now, is the guy you've chosen to worship. You really need to reexamine your beliefs. There are Christian denominations out there that don't buy the eternal torment nonsense. You should check them out.

And you do know that Jews don't believe in hell right? And Jesus was Jewish. And the words from which hell is translated don't mean a place of eternal suffering? Look into it. You will have a much better experience believing in God if you drop this ridiculous belief that God is an unforgiving, merciless tyrant.

 

[Luminous]

Poor unstable Adolf? I hardly doubt that. He knew exactly what he was doing.

If that is what you see in justice, then I have to say your definition of the term is greatly misconstrued. It has nothing to do with revenge.

then why torture him for eternity...pray tell.

 

[fallingblood]

This is one of the problems I have with faith. It often prevents a person from thinking rationally. When a person comes to a problem for which they have no explanation, they just stop, and say something like, "Well, I don't understand why, but God is good so there has to be a reason." Or they say possibly. Use your head! Is there or isnt there anything good that can come of it? Its not a difficult question. Your tormenting someone forever. Soooooo... No. There isnt anything good that can come of it. You'd have to either be completely insane to think there is, or a person whose rationality has been compromised by his faith. I can relate. I've been there. But think about. Tormenting someone forever... Think about it!

Again, I don't believe in this hellfire for eternity. I may be defending the idea, but it is not my own.

But rationally, we can't say anything about the factors involved. Can you point to anything that would tell us that this type of torture would never have any point? Not at all. Because the factors involved are things we can't measure.

I agree that it is a horrible idea. That it seems like it would be terrible. But then again, everything would be different. The major factor being that we have no idea how the being would feel since they wouldn't have the same body that we have now. So it would be different.

If that were true, which of course it is not, then the purpose would clearly be to satisfy Gods thirst for causing others suffering. Every being, without exception, who wants to cause others eternal torment... is a complete psychopathic freak. And that, as of right now, is the guy you've chosen to worship. You really need to reexamine your beliefs. There are Christian denominations out there that don't buy the eternal torment nonsense. You should check them out.

And you do know that Jews don't believe in hell right? And Jesus was Jewish. And the words from which hell is translated don't mean a place of eternal suffering? Look into it. You will have a much better experience believing in God if you drop this ridiculous belief that God is an unforgiving, merciless tyrant.

That isn't rational at all. To simply label them all as psychopathic freaks show that you have very deeply engrained preconceived notions and you aren't looking at this in a rational sense.

Also, you should really actually learn what I believe before making ignorant statements about it. Simply saying I need to reexamine my beliefs, when you don't know what they are, is insulting and ignorant.

More so, you are trying to judge a supreme being by human standards. If God exists, and is all loving, and has this punishment, then there is more to it than just what you're saying.

Really, there is little reason to even continue with you if you are going to be so condescending, and close-minded.

 

[fallingblood]

then why torture him for eternity...pray tell.

Did I say that was my belief?

 

[839311]

If God exists, and is all loving...

...then he would never torture anyone forever. Probably not at all, really. I can't see how such a being could possibly even justify torturing someone for a little while. Humans, sure. They could justify it. But God? Hes got 100 other ways around problems like these. Perhaps make the person live another life and get more experience, maybe in totally different circumstances. Or make the necessary genetic adjustments to change the person. Hes got the power.

Really, there is little reason to even continue with you if you are going to be so condescending, and close-minded.

I hate this belief. Its the most evil concept imaginable. I can't stand it when i hear people supporting it. The fact that this evil concept has infected humanity so deeply is despicable.

 

[fallingblood]

...then he would never torture anyone forever. Probably not at all, really. I can't see how such a being could possibly even justify torturing someone for a little while. Humans, sure. They could justify it. But God? Hes got 100 other ways around problems like these. Perhaps make the person live another life and get more experience, maybe in totally different circumstances. Or make the necessary genetic adjustments to change the person. Hes got the power.

He would also the the potential to torture someone but still love them.

I hate this belief. Its the most evil concept imaginable. I can't stand it when i hear people supporting it. The fact that this evil concept has infected humanity so deeply is despicable.

Honestly, I am in the same boat as you. I do not like the hellfire belief. I don't even like the concept of Satan in general.

However, I dislike it more when people attack a god, simply because that god usually defines quite a bit about them. By simply attacking and calling a god evil does also can move towards the claim that the people who worship the god are evil. That really is my main problem with this thread, and why I defended the idea of hell.

 

[Pharrell]

How can a person hold such a belief and still believe in a good and loving god? Is such a belief not the opposite of goodness and love? To torment a person for all eternity for rejecting belief in him? We might call a parent good for correcting their child when they disobey, but would we call them good if they eternally corrected their child?

I am calling on people here to search their feelings and realize how un-loving and terrible this belief really is. You cannot call this love, it is quite the opposite. If this belief is correct, this is a terrible god to believe in.

I don't think someone will go to hell for rejecting " God " as there are many reasons to deny the existence of God. BUT, I think ppl like Hitler, Stalin, ect will be tormented for eternity. I just don't understand Jehovah Witnesses running around saying hell doesn't exist when their beliefs totally contradict the Bible itself.

Anyway, I often think of how hellish hell will really be for some ppl. Like just think of how bad life on earth can be? Just imagine having a really bad sore throat for like billions of years... That would really suck bad. Nevermind drinking boiling water as you will be so thristy that you'll break down and drink it. Or just being starved for thousands of years and then you'll break down and eat from the Tree of Zaqqum. Something like eating a Rose Bush. Ouch... The possibilites are endless...

 

[outhouse]

their beliefs totally contradict the Bible itself.

really?


hell evolved over thousands of years.

It started out as sheol or hades meaning grave or dirt pit for about a thousand years along with gehenna a 24/7 burning garbage dump where sinners bodies were said to be burned outside the city walls in a little valley. It was said to look like a lake of fire.

hell is more of a christian invention, thats only the second half of the bible.


Very little of hell is actually described in the book to let ones imagination fly on such a punishment.

 

[otokage007]

How can a person hold such a belief and still believe in a good and loving god? Is such a belief not the opposite of goodness and love? To torment a person for all eternity for rejecting belief in him? We might call a parent good for correcting their child when they disobey, but would we call them good if they eternally corrected their child?

I am calling on people here to search their feelings and realize how un-loving and terrible this belief really is. You cannot call this love, it is quite the opposite. If this belief is correct, this is a terrible god to believe in.

Well the Bible sais it, and if you believe in the Bible, then you believe in the whole Bible. It isn't very rational to believe just what you want.

 

[outhouse]

Well the Bible sais it, and if you believe in the Bible, then you believe in the whole Bible. It isn't very rational to believe just what you want.

it is very rational.

its down to how you interpret the wording and intent.

the book was written in allegory, songs, poems, historical, fable and on and on and on.


If one doesnt believe the earth was created in one day and that there was never a world wide flood. ONE should still enjoy the book for what it is and get out of it what one can.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

This is the both the biggest reason why I left the Catholic Church and ironically the biggest reason I was afraid to leave it. The threat of eternal damnation in hell was still lingering in my mind. This is still the Catholic Church's stance on the doctrine of Hell in their Catechism. Surely this nonsense should not be taken seriously this day and age.

IV. HELL
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire, and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.