The Holocaust

[Scuba Pete]

Eclipsed by the nearly total destruction of the Mayans by Spain.

You mean the Americans did a better job in exterminating the American Indians then the German in exterminating the Jews?


As far as theory of evolution go, it is the survival of the fittest. The weaker genetic race will slowly disappear. In the case of holocaust of genocide of North and South American natives, the event is human instigaed and occurred over a short period of time, and hence people started to see the horrors of it. However, if you traced history, disappearing of a whole race with a long historical time frame due to natural selection process is very often. Some race are assimulated in, and some just disappeared.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Here is a good synopsis of all of the tragedies: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#20worst

Please note, that the genocide of the American Indian came far closer to reaching it's goal than the Holocaust came to exterminating the Jews. Shame on us for this.

I don't think anyone reading this, anyone alive today, could possibly have been involved in the attempted extermination of the native american peoples. No shame on any of us.

And by the way, my Great-great grandmother came to Oklahoma on the trail of tears, so this is not some redneck honky apologists opinion. The only reason that Europeans wiped out the Indian Tribes is better technology and a more advanced culture. Almost without exception native american tribes were violent and war-like and put up a tremendous fight given the limited technology they had.

If someone had invented the wheel in the new world 5 or 6 thousand years ago, history would be written in a completely different way. 10,000 years of relative isolation stagnated Native American culture techologically speaking. If we/they had possessed ships, and compasses, they/we would likely have conquered Europe, and not the other way around. But regardless, nobody reading this was personally involved on either side of the issue.

Nazi's are first and foremost Germans, during the time of Hitler, and everybody knows that they were efficient and kept good records. The 6 million figure is likely to be quite accurate. Hitler came to such a quick rise to power at least in part because he got the trains to run on time. Anyone who can get the trains to run on time, can count the number of people he is loading into them.

B.

 

[Faminedynasty]

The only reason that Europeans wiped out the Indian Tribes is better technology and a more advanced culture.

And manifest destiny and the subsequent conscious popular movement of genocide. I reject the notion that this is something that happened gently, or merely the result of "inevitable" social factors--thereby taking human morality and responsibility out of the equation entirely. People do not die out simply because other people have technology. They die because people with superior technology elect to use said technology to kill them.

 

[Popeyesays]

Since being here, I have seen at least a dozen threads started, with the intention of trashing the historical records of the Holocaust during WWII.


I thought it high time to have a poll, to make it (hopefully) quite clear what the majority of members believe.

An extract from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust : Do you agree that the above is representative of the historical records of WWII ?

Dear Michel,

I am a military historian. I have participated for many years in the largely internet debate over the accuracy of the Holocaust numbers and facts. I have moderated two different discussion groups on the topic.

The anti-Holocaust faction has been largely beaten. They do not even discuss it much except in small very protected fora where the voices of sanity are quickly ejected.
The first truly big nail in the coffin of the deniers was the study by the German Hisotrical Academy which stated that the death toll had to be at LEAST 5.26 million and might be as high as 7.0 million direct victims (death camps, starvation, privation, disease, mob violence, slave labor, forced transportation, etc).

The latest big nail in the coffin is the very cowed David Irving who is facing charges in Austria today for holocaust denial which is a crime in Austria. He has tried to talk his way out of it by admitting that Auschwitz/Birkenau did indeed have mass gassing chambers after decades of denial.

To the death toll of 6,000,000 Jews should be added 5,000,000 Poles, and 12-25 million Russian Slavs, a couple million Ukrainian Slavs, and a million or so French, Belgian, Dutch, and Yugoslavian partisans.

If anyone wishes to debate it with me, come prepared.

Regards,
Scott

 

[narziss]

5 million Poles? Ithink that's way too high. I heard about 3 million Poles.

Anyway: there are some nazi-documents about the holocaust.

http://www.ghwk.de/engl/protengl.htm

 

[Popeyesays]

5 million Poles? Ithink that's way too high. I heard about 3 million Poles.

Anyway: there are some nazi-documents about the holocaust.

http://www.ghwk.de/engl/protengl.htm

I am not speaking of Polish Jews in that instance, but 5,000,000 non-Jewish Poles.
The Wansee Protocol is the tip of the iceberg since it is a planning paper. I suggest the Jaeger Report, the extant SS/SD reports on the period of Operation Barbarossa, documentation on the mobile gassing vans used primarily at Chelmno. The documentation concerning the Aktion Reinhardt Camps (Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec), Goering and Heydrich's correspondence and Himmler Report #54 as a good starting place.

Regards,
Scott

 

[BUDDY]

Don't forget to add in the mentally handicapped, homosexuals and gypsys. I think that the total number of jews killed by Germany is robably aroudn 6 million. Whether this is the exact number or not shouldn't matter though. The fact that these people where slaughtered because of their race is tragedy enough in and of itself. It is frustrating to me though, that often times the jewish tragedy hugely overshadows the deaths of all of those already mentioned during the war. The number of Russians slaughtered was probably at least 4 times that of the jewish holocaust, and yet many people outside of Russia never remember it.

As for the comparisons to the conqering of the native americans by europeans, I think the only similarity is in the total disregard for human life exemplified in both instances. Besides that, there are more differences than similarities, and I agree that there is no reason for modern day Americans to feel responsible or to take blame for those acts so long ago. I am only responsible for my own actions, or inactions, not for anyone elses, and so are all of you.

 

[narziss]

I know that you were talking about the non-jewish Poles. But in many figures there are "only" 3 million poles mentioned.

 

[Popeyesays]

Don't forget to add in the mentally handicapped, homosexuals and gypsys. I think that the total number of jews killed by Germany is robably aroudn 6 million. Whether this is the exact number or not shouldn't matter though. The fact that these people where slaughtered because of their race is tragedy enough in and of itself. It is frustrating to me though, that often times the jewish tragedy hugely overshadows the deaths of all of those already mentioned during the war. The number of Russians slaughtered was probably at least 4 times that of the jewish holocaust, and yet many people outside of Russia never remember it.

As for the comparisons to the conqering of the native americans by europeans, I think the only similarity is in the total disregard for human life exemplified in both instances. Besides that, there are more differences than similarities, and I agree that there is no reason for modern day Americans to feel responsible or to take blame for those acts so long ago. I am only responsible for my own actions, or inactions, not for anyone elses, and so are all of you.

The death toll of the Tiergarten-4 (mandated euthanasia) program was 50, to 60 thousand. The Gypsy death toll was about a quarter million. Most of them died in the Aktion Reinhardt camps along with 1.5 to 3.0 million Jews (Sobibor, Chelmno, Belzec, and Treblinka).

One should remember that no detailed records were kept in the death camps. At Auschwitz and Birkenau in particular it was against orders to keep records of numbers of liquidated victims. The death books of the camps only contain the names of those who were actually admitted to the camp as an inmate, given a registration number and entered the camp as someone who needed a record of sorts during their incarceration.

The vast majority of "racially undesirables" were eliminated straight from the transport trains and were never registered in the camps at all.

The number of 6,000,000 is mostly derived taking the numbers from population records BEFORE the war, and comparing it with the numbers who returned to their towns, villages and cities or were processed through the displaced persons camps run by the allies after Germany's surrender. You subtract the latter number from the former number and you have the number who fail to re-appear after the end of the war.

You will never find detailed records of what happened to the missing.

As to comparing one genocide with another . . . what's the point. You can't compare the numbers of victims, the methods of killing, the original intent, and one genocide - no matter how terrible it might be - will never excuse another genocide by its magnitude or cruelty.

"NEVER FORGET" is what we are compelled to do as human beings so it might not EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Someday that will be true.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

For those who might wish to view it, the Jaeger Report is the submitted report by the commander of a single Einsatzgruppen during Operation Barbarossa (The June 22nd, 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union). The document can be viewed as facsimiles of the original German language report or in English translation here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm

Regards,
Scott

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

And manifest destiny and the subsequent conscious popular movement of genocide. I reject the notion that this is something that happened gently, or merely the result of "inevitable" social factors--thereby taking human morality and responsibility out of the equation entirely. People do not die out simply because other people have technology. They die because people with superior technology elect to use said technology to kill them.

Agreed, at least in large part. Manifest Destiny = "God told us to do it" similar themes have cursed humanity for most of recorded history, at least since the advent of the Abrahmic religions. This notion of "God said to . . . . " as an excuse or reason for harming or killing others has led to more deaths and misery than perhaps any other ideal, with the possible exception of nationalism. I have railed against this sort of thing till I am blue in the face, and will continue to do so.

I must take exception, however, with you mis-characterizing my previous post regarding this being a gentle, or inevetable notion, the genocide of the american indians. I in no way think it was gentle. It was brutal and foul and insidious. Just like all genocides are. I was merely pointing out that the natives of the new world were not simply a bunch of weak sissies sitting around waiting for someone to conquer them. They were a proud, warlike, feirce people who defended themselves in the best way they possibly could have, given their limited technology. Given superior technology and a way to communicate accross tribal lines, who knows how the stories of the americas would be different?

I acknowledge that people do not die out simply because they have inferior technology. I do however say that they are somewhat at the mercy of others who do have superior technology, and live or die at the whim of those who are technologically superior. There is no doubt a moral problem with pushing out a more primitive people and taking their land. I don't argue otherwise, but I do say that nobody alive today did these things. I am no more responsible for what my white ancestors did to my indian ancestors than I am for what some indian ancestor of mine no doubt did to a white person at some time or another.

B.

 

[narziss]

Don't forget to add in the mentally handicapped, homosexuals and gypsys. I think that the total number of jews killed by Germany is robably aroudn 6 million. Whether this is the exact number or not shouldn't matter though. The fact that these people where slaughtered because of their race is tragedy enough in and of itself. It is frustrating to me though, that often times the jewish tragedy hugely overshadows the deaths of all of those already mentioned during the war. The number of Russians slaughtered was probably at least 4 times that of the jewish holocaust, and yet many people outside of Russia never remember it.

That's a thing I don't like about the Holocaust.

There are some Holocaust memorials in Japan. But there is no memorial in Japan that shows the brutality against the chinese in WWII.

About 7 Million Germans died during WWII

In the post-war Germany, Homosexuals were not recognized as victims of Hitler. The nazi-laws against homosexuals endured the Third Reich for two decades.

In the post-war Germany the murder of about 20 million Russians was not recognized as murder but as war casualties. If you kill someone who is not a soldier it is murder - if you kill someone on the battlefield it is honor.

After WWII murder continued all over the world. In Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Cambodia and so far...the other genocides are considered as beeing harmless, becaust less people were killed, than during the Holocaust.

 

[michel]

That's a thing I don't like about the Holocaust.

There are some Holocaust memorials in Japan. But there is no memorial in Japan that shows the brutality against the chinese in WWII.

About 7 Million Germans died during WWII

In the post-war Germany, Homosexuals were not recognized as victims of Hitler. The nazi-laws against homosexuals endured the Third Reich for two decades.

In the post-war Germany the murder of about 20 million Russians was not recognized as murder but as war casualties. If you kill someone who is not a soldier it is murder - if you kill someone on the battlefield it is honor.

After WWII murder continued all over the world. In Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Cambodia and so far...the other genocides are considered as beeing harmless, becaust less people were killed, than during the Holocaust.

Hi narziss,

Welcome to Religious Forums!

As I notice that this is your first visit here, perhaps you would like to introduce yourself to the other members, by posting on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?

Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any. You might like to check out our article with links for our newer members; from there, there is also a link to the forum rules which you ought to see.

You make some very good points in your post, and are corrct in what you say.

Perhaps if I explain that one of the raison d'être for this thread arose from a pattern of negating the very existance of the holocaust by one or two members of the forum........you might understand why the attention is focussed on the Jewish.

I have no problem agreeing with all the points you make concerning other atrocities to other groups and races, of course you are quite right.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's a thing I don't like about the Holocaust.

That is too bad. But, while the differences may be too subtle for you, they are nevertheless real:

• The Shoah is not a war casualty statistic. It is a clinical and deliberate attempt to exterminate a people on ethnic and religious grounds.
• The Shoah is not an instance of the excesses of war. It is the continuation of the dhimmitude in the Muslim world and Pogroms in the Pale of Settlement
• The Shoah is not what one nationality did. It is what occurred as country after country shut its borders to those seeking to flee the shock troops.

So, there is "a thing [you] don't like about the Holocaust"? There are many things that I don't like about the Holocaust, and not one of them makes me one bit less sensitive to the many other attrocities perpetrated by man.

 

[Ernesto]

At the end of the day, what does it matter how many jews and gypsies and homosexuals were killed; the fact is, it was a lot. That fact remains. A lot of jews were slaughtered unjustly. What's the point you're trying to make by saying that the historical number might be incorrect? It happened, it's horrific, now let's look onward.

 

[Popeyesays]

Civilian Casualties:

Allies:
​

Great Britain + Commonwealth60,000France360,000United StatesMinimalUSSR7,700,000Belgium90,000Holland190,000NorwayMinimalPoland5,300,000Greece80,000Yugoslavia1,300,000Czechoslovakia330,000China (from 1937 on)10,000,000 Total25,410,000
Axis powers:

Germany3,810,000Austria80,000Italy85,000Rumania465,000Hungary280,000Bulgaria7,000FinlandMinimalJapan360,000 Total5,087,000

Total civilian casualties Allies + Axis = 30,497,000
​

Total civilian + military casualties (Allies + Axis) = 55,014,000
​

 

[michel]

Civilian Casualties:

Allies:​

Great Britain + Commonwealth60,000France360,000United StatesMinimalUSSR7,700,000Belgium90,000Holland190,000NorwayMinimalPoland5,300,000Greece80,000Yugoslavia1,300,000Czechoslovakia330,000China (from 1937 on)10,000,000 Total25,410,000
Axis powers:

Germany3,810,000Austria80,000Italy85,000Rumania465,000Hungary280,000Bulgaria7,000FinlandMinimalJapan360,000 Total5,087,000

Total civilian casualties Allies + Axis = 30,497,000​

Total civilian + military casualties (Allies + Axis) = 55,014,000


​

Which is why, to this day, we have a memorialon the 11th November, at 11 a.m..................Lest we forget............"

 

[searcher63]

Wanna hear something scary? The quote:" Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." is SO VERY TRUE. I dare say in 50 years or so there will be groups of people debating whether 911 really happened at all and whether 3,000 people were really murdered or not. THAT IS SCARY!

 

[greatcalgarian]

And by the way, my Great-great grandmother came to Oklahoma on the trail of tears, so this is not some redneck honky apologists opinion. The only reason that Europeans wiped out the Indian Tribes is better technology and a more advanced culture. Almost without exception native american tribes were violent and war-like and put up a tremendous fight given the limited technology they had.
B.

I beg to differ from your conclusion. There are other reasons why the native Americans were nearly obliterated. Historical text and education by American and the West tend to sweeten out the crime committed by the early explorers and adventurers, and put the blame on "backwardness of the culture and technology of the natives", and "violtent and war-like"
This is very similary to the current political trick of brainwashing the people of the LINK between the "Terrorism" and "Islamic teaching".

 

[Ernesto]

Wanna hear something scary? The quote:" Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." is SO VERY TRUE. I dare say in 50 years or so there will be groups of people debating whether 911 really happened at all and whether 3,000 people were really murdered or not. THAT IS SCARY!

Indeed, it's all a form of paranoia isn't it? Nobody likes being lied to, so it's easy to believe that historic facts are not facts at all.