The Holy? Crusades

[Mister Emu]

The Vatican City is amongst one of the smallest countries of the world.
They have their own stamp, army, etc.

The Vatican does not have an army.

The Pope is considered infallible by the Catholics.

We on the other hand are well aware of the sins comitted by Catholism.
The crusades, the Spanish inquisition, burning Joan of Arc, siding with Hitler, persecuting JWs, selling "indulgences"...

Papal infallibility does not mean what you appear to think it does... Popes can make mistakes.

 

[Man of Faith]

Here is my limited knowledge of the crusades but I am open to being persuaded on the matter somewhat. Although it is the Christians responsibility to not murder and treat everyone with love, that doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or have a military. The crusades were a response from a cry for help by Chrisitians who were being killed. The original intentions were pure, self preservation. However, did it get out of control and go beyond that, possibly.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Thanks RomCat for teaching me something new. I will check out Malta.

Point is that love and death are not mutually exclusive.

Point ceeded.

God commanded people to kill in the past.

God commanded the Jews to kill and it was during OT times when He had to preserve the Jews and also to use them to punish those wicked people. After the Jewish nation was established, God did not command it anymore.

I never said there was.

Yes, you are right. You never said that there was Jihad in Christianity.
Jihad = Holy War. Crusade = Holy War. Ergo, Crusade is unChristian.

No, He did not. He also did not drive a car or use a computer... does that mean Christians should not use them as they improve society? Should we refuse to improve society in a way that is open to us?

Cars and computers did not exist then. But politics did. And the Roman Empire was certainly something to fight against "to improve society".

Why? Because we can make it a better system. Should Christians not have voted to free slaves?

I'm all for a better system. But don't get too involved. Therein lies the seductive power of Satan. Between Democrats and Republicans; if there is no big issue eg "freeing slaves", then don't vote (imo).

Note: I'm just trying to live my life by being guided by Jesus. Many are too. And we come to different conclusions. Its ok. The closer we stick to Jesus, the better guided we become. We make better decisions when we talk it out like this.

It is not the cure, but it is better than a bad political system.

I agree.

Ahh, so you will fight. Thus it is not that violence in defense that is necessarily wrong, but a question of whether or not they did enough to avoid it as long as they could.

And maybe its a question of whether or not i am following what Jesus actually teaches.

What if you knew that some of the people fleeing would die, would you fight to to get them a little more time, and thus a better chance at survival? If you saw a friend's family running but not quite making it, would you fight to give them the opportunity to survive?

First, i would help them to flee. If that is not posible, I would try to delay their persuers by blowing up bridges, felling trees across roads, etc. Last resort, yes i will fight but i'll try to wound the enemy rather than kill.

 

[Faithfreedom]

The Vatican does not have an army.

My mistake. I called the Pope's guards his army.

Papal infallibility does not mean what you appear to think it does... Popes can make mistakes.

What does "infallibility" means to you? Can Popes make doctrinal mistakes?

 

[Smoke]

The crusades were a response from a cry for help by Chrisitians who were being killed.

Yeah, and they responded by killing those Christians themselves.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Although it is the Christians responsibility to not murder and treat everyone with love, that doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or have a military. The crusades were a response from a cry for help by Chrisitians who were being killed. The original intentions were pure, self preservation. However, did it get out of control and go beyond that, possibly.

Jesus told his disciples to flee if they were persecuted. So we defend ourselves by fleeing. If you don't, then you are not obeying Jesus's command.

If you were in the military, then the damned sinners won't be leaping over your body to hell, will they. You'll be helping them to reach their destination faster! And they won't be perishing with your arms around their knees, imploring them to stay; that's for sure.

ps - no offense meant brother, it was just to make my point clearer.

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, and they responded by killing those Christians themselves.

To be fair, that was five wars and more than a century later.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hello everyone,

I would like your opinion about the The "Holy" Crusades.

Nothing "holy" about those... wastes. (And that's about as nice as you can refer to them.)

 

[England my lionheart]

An interesting story from the Crusades came at the siege of Antioch,a Crusader Peter Bartholomew claimed to have had some visits from St Andrew about the whereabouts of the Holy Lance (Spear of Destiny) that supposedly pierced Jesus's side at the Cricifixion.

Once Antioch was taken Bartholomew and Raymond of St Giles started digging the floor of the Church of St Peter and hey presto the Holy Lance was found,this was a massive moral booster for the Crusaders who were under siege themselves and starving,the discovery of the Spear has been credited with the temporary victory that followed.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Of course not. The Crusades were a travesty and a horror, and Christians who try to instigate new ones by trying to turn their countries into authoritarian theocratic regimes led by themselves are paying very little attention to the teachings of the founder of their faith, and instead embracing the selfish, petty tribalism that has dominated human history from the start.

Luckily, not all Christians are obsessed with earthly power and influence. I don't think most are, even.

Very well said! :clap

 

[Midnight Pete]

An interesting story from the Crusades came at the siege of Antioch,a Crusader Peter Bartholomew claimed to have had some visits from St Andrew about the whereabouts of the Holy Lance (Spear of Destiny) that supposedly pierced Jesus's side at the Cricifixion.

Once Antioch was taken Bartholomew and Raymond of St Giles started digging the floor of the Church of St Peter and hey presto the Holy Lance was found,this was a massive moral booster for the Crusaders who were under siege themselves and starving,the discovery of the Spear has been credited with the temporary victory that followed.

The Spear of Destiny is also said to have fallen into the possession of Adolf Hitler during WW2. But whether or not the spear Hitler had was the real one is debatable. (Supposedly there were several fakes.)

 

[England my lionheart]

The Spear of Destiny is also said to have fallen into the possession of Adolf Hitler during WW2. But whether or not the spear Hitler had was the real one is debatable. (Supposedly there were several fakes.)

Yes there have been many people claiming to have it

 

[Midnight Pete]

Yes there have been many people claiming to have it

I saw one at a garage sale.

 

[England my lionheart]

I saw one at a garage sale.

Lol,you should have bought it and put iton ebay

 

[Man of Faith]

Jesus told his disciples to flee if they were persecuted. So we defend ourselves by fleeing. If you don't, then you are not obeying Jesus's command.

If you were in the military, then the damned sinners won't be leaping over your body to hell, will they. You'll be helping them to reach their destination faster! And they won't be perishing with your arms around their knees, imploring them to stay; that's for sure.

ps - no offense meant brother, it was just to make my point clearer.

I have a question for you through a hypothetical scenario. If someone broke into your home with a knife and you had a gun, would you use the gun to protect yourself and your family?

 

[Smoke]

To be fair, that was five wars and more than a century later.

A century later than "the Crusades"? I don't think so.

It is true, though, that during the First Crusade the Catholics mainly massacred Jews and Muslims.

 

[Faithfreedom]

I have a question for you through a hypothetical scenario. If someone broke into your home with a knife and you had a gun, would you use the gun to protect yourself and your family?

If i aim the gun at him and he surrenders, then fine.
If i had no choice, i'll wound him in the leg.
And if there was really no other way, then I will shoot to kill.
My survival and fatherly instincts will kick in. I will reflect on it afterwards.

But I think I see what you are getting at.
I know patriotism is deeply rooted in us but is that what God wants?
I prefer to consider myself a citizen of the world. Borders are man-made.
The powers-that-be, make use of our patriotism, to further their own agendas.

Don't worry, there will always be lots of misled people who will fall for this trap.
Besides prophecies have to be fulfilled. Jesus said, "There will always be wars and rumours of wars". But why be amongst the misled? Why soil your hands with the blood of your brother.
Let the dead kill their dead.

 

[waitasec]

If memory serves (sorry, can't qoute chapter and verse off-hand), Jesus did tell a rich wannabe disciple, "Foxes have dens, birds have nests (not sure about the birds parts tho' but something like that), but the Son of Man have no place to lay his head. This was to tell that guy that there's no place on earth that christians can call Home. Christians are sojourners on earth or just passing through life to our real home on Paradise Earth.

Matthew 6:9 (The Lord's Prayer) Our Father in Heaven.....your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven...."
This means that his kingdom is not yet here. And if it was, God would be the King on earth. (Per JW, Paradise Earth ruled from God's Kingdom in heaven. But let's not split hairs now cos what's the big difference if Earth is an auxiliary part of the kingdom or not.)

2nd Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.
i.e God's kingdom is not on earth but in heaven.

1st Corintians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
ergo, since we're all still alive, the kingdom is no-where on earth

Luke 17:20-21 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 4:5 - 8 The devil led him Jesus up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the workd. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
i.e the kingdoms of this world belongs to Satan. If this is not true, Jesus would have known it and would not have been tempted by a lie. Think of it. Jesus knew that he would be humiliated and crucified. Isn't this an offer he couldn't refuse?

Daniel 2:44 In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end , but it will itself endure for ever.
So, since there has never been a christian country (imo), then the kingdom of God is not on earth yet.

You are right, the kingdom of heaven will not come when we are still alive.
But while Christians are journeying through this (Satan's) world, we have a fore-taste of what's to come. We strive to give up hate, anger, jeolousy, etc - all the bad emotions and go for the good. We are suppose to create heaven within us.

i think the "kingdom of heaven" was originally meant as a state of peace when the jews were to be liberated from the romans...around the time of jesus. the temple was destroyed and then the 1st gospel was written as propaganda, mark...it ends with...
mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

what jew wasn't afraid after the temple was destroyed...?
it was at this time you will notice a turning point for the jews and the beginning of the jesus movement...

 

[waitasec]

I prefer to consider myself a citizen of the world. Borders are man-made.
The powers-that-be, make use of our patriotism, to further their own agendas.

i agree, but didn't god create borders by taking sides?

 

[Faithfreedom]

..around the time of jesus. the temple was destroyed and then the 1st gospel was written as propaganda, mark...it ends with...
mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

(snip, snip)

what jew wasn't afraid after the temple was destroyed...?
it was at this time you will notice a turning point for the jews and the beginning of the jesus movement...

When Jesus died, his followers were demoralised, sad, scared and without a leader.
The "turning point" for Jesus' disciples was on the Day of Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit descended on them and embolden them to preach the good news; filling them with power and zeal. The "jesus movement" began there.

The jewish revolt against Roman rule by the Macabeans(?) brought the wrath of Rome on Isreal's head. The Roman general surrounded and besieged Jerusalem city and finally destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. to crush the center of the rebellion.

When the early christians were persecuted in Jerusalem, they flee to other cities, spreading the gospel.