The Homing Pigeon and Evolution

[Monk Of Reason]

So what had happened exactly which gradually evolved Apes to Humans,do you know what had happened exactly or just guessing

If you want to call intensive study of the evidece with the most advanced techniques we've ever developed that continue to support and verifiy the theories of how evidence should turn up from the theory....guessing...

But here is a wiki that explains in more detail what the evidences are. The originaly evidence was the theory itself which showed how we were more similar to apes than to other animals and how other "kinds" if you were to put it were more similar to each other and that there was a distinctive way to group them based on these similarities. Darwin noticed these and was able to draw the conclusion rather well.

Then the fossil evidence began to pile up. We were able to date them soon after and we found that the further back we go the less and less "human" the remains would appear and the more and more "apelike" but obviously similar. The tracking of the changes is remarkable.

Finally DNA evidence has put the nail in the coffin for evolution deniers. It perfectly supports the theory and verifies it without a doubt.

So it is arbitrary happening and not directed by a conscious entity,so do you believe that such things can work by chance,so we have the ability to see,listen and talk by a chance.

Which do you think is more complex,the human body or the TV.
If all pieces needed for a TV set is available,do you think a monkey can assemble the TV by connecting each piece by random way.

Nature is unconscious,so we have no other choices other than thinking of randomness and chances,then do you think that is science,that is rubbish and not science ,dude

Storms are more complex than a TV set. Geodes and caves are more complex than a TV set. The molecular nuclear fusion found in the sun and the way that it circulates the energy so it doesn't simply explode nor implode in this perfect array of balance while at the same time emitting life creating light is far more complex than a TV.

But we find them in nature. And I actually bring up life and the human body. Its found in nature and far more advanced. Though we can also track how it changes over time.

And for the millionth time you are simply lying through your dishonest teeth when you state "its a blind process by chance". I know for a fact that I have corrected you over and over and over again, as have others. It is a process guided by the laws of nature. Everything from Gravity and the strong/weak nuclear force to the laws of thermodynamics and states of matter.

Does water "randomly" flow in the same direction down a river? No of course not. Its because the water follows the path of least resistance down a slant on the earth towards and its being pulled from the direction of the center of the earth through the force of gravity.

I cannot conclude that you are being anything other than dishonest when you continue to state "its a blind/random process".

What i have to provide,an evidence that the universe and the creations were done by a designer,i think your mind should be your evidence.

Why? I have explained numerous times how our minds are the product of evolution rather than god.

Why did the egg crack? Because its raining in Bolivia. One has nothing to do with the other. It is not an obvious fact no matter how many times you bring it up. It is an argument from ignorance. Because you do not know the answer does not mean that it is automatically god.

So you know how objects physically interact with each other over vast distances and also you think it is naturally happening and doesn't need any designer.

Your replies is more than enough for me as not to believe you.

Why does objects interacting with each other by utilizing a force that is well known and well documented make it god in the first place.

 

[FearGod]

From itself.

Just like you think of a God who creates them using laws and rule that applies to himself because they're in his nature, the laws and rules of existence are inherent in existence in nature itself. The nature of Nature is what it is.

That is rubbish and not science.

Laws and rules should be established first,it is like saying we can launch a rocket to the moon without making use of the laws and rules.

This is the conclusion I've come to by being a Christian for 30 years, atheist for 10, and then realizing that there's a middle ground that fits with science and reality.

Why you need to invent a religion,i think non is better than imagining one.

All things exist. There's no first.

No,thats not true,there is always first.
Who was first,you or you father ?

"Created" is a word I don't like because it implies a conscious and planned thought. I don't believe the world is that well planned. It's very chaotic.

Very chaotic.

[youtube]Vv6Q_SW71zM[/youtube]
Wings to Paradise 1 of 2 1080p HD - YouTube

I'm certain they will. I consider myself both an atheist and naturalistic panentheist at the same time, simply because the former is the philosophical and fundamental position, the latter is the spiritual result from it.

Tow sides of the same coin

Humans are still a bipedal animal with arms and legs and skull, just like apes. Humans are still apes in that sense. We belong to the primate order just like gorillas and chimpanzees.

When it comes to a bacteria that has changed that much, because of its small size and much smaller genome, the radical change is on a much larger scale than if we would grow wings. It's so radical and large in change in the bacteria that it's pretty much like a new species.

We were bacteria one day.

Also, consider that the bacteria didn't have the genes for this ability some 50 years ago. It came from somewhere. It came from mutations. In other words, Evolution is right. That's how it works. In the small scale, do it a million times, and you have large scale. Just like a Riemann Sum.

And after one million years it may evolve to Nylon Dinos.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No,thats not true,there is always first.
Who was first,you or you father ?

Your looking at the sequence of events rather than "being". For example no atoms in the universe are older than any other. All the matter in our universe is the same age (which is the age of the universe) because there is no "universe" that we reside in but rather we are "part of" the universe. There is no "us" and the "universe".

 

[FearGod]

Your looking at the sequence of events rather than "being". For example no atoms in the universe are older than any other. All the matter in our universe is the same age (which is the age of the universe) because there is no "universe" that we reside in but rather we are "part of" the universe. There is no "us" and the "universe".

I didn't get your point.
Are you as old as the universe ?

 

[FearGod]

If you want to call intensive study of the evidece with the most advanced techniques we've ever developed that continue to support and verifiy the theories of how evidence should turn up from the theory....guessing...

Not guessing,so tell me what happened exactly,what makes apes evolved to humans, Did some sort of foods make Apes evolved to Humans and which foods have such effect for changing the kind,did the climate change the kind.

Your reply should be direct and scientific,so please don't play around.

But here is a wiki that explains in more detail what the evidences are. The originaly evidence was the theory itself which showed how we were more similar to apes than to other animals and how other "kinds" if you were to put it were more similar to each other and that there was a distinctive way to group them based on these similarities. Darwin noticed these and was able to draw the conclusion rather well.

Of course there will be similarities since all creatures are created by the same creator.

It is like finding some similarities between the electronic circuits of the Radio and TV,very normal as the producer and the materials are one.

Then the fossil evidence began to pile up. We were able to date them soon after and we found that the further back we go the less and less "human" the remains would appear and the more and more "apelike" but obviously similar. The tracking of the changes is remarkable.

Exactly as tracing the human inventions,Before TV,there was the Radio.
But still who produced the Radio is the same as the one who produced the TV,still humans who did it.

Finally DNA evidence has put the nail in the coffin for evolution deniers. It perfectly supports the theory and verifies it without a doubt.

But can never ever exclude God's hand on it.

Storms are more complex than a TV set. Geodes and caves are more complex than a TV set. The molecular nuclear fusion found in the sun and the way that it circulates the energy so it doesn't simply explode nor implode in this perfect array of balance while at the same time emitting life creating light is far more complex than a TV.

But we find them in nature. And I actually bring up life and the human body. Its found in nature and far more advanced. Though we can also track how it changes over time.

And for the millionth time you are simply lying through your dishonest teeth when you state "its a blind process by chance". I know for a fact that I have corrected you over and over and over again, as have others. It is a process guided by the laws of nature. Everything from Gravity and the strong/weak nuclear force to the laws of thermodynamics and states of matter.

Nice you know that the universe is operated under some laws while you still ignorant of how laws established at first place,i think the problem lies on ones ability to understand,you are still saying the evolution wasn't by random and chance,i ain't talking about natural selection but about the circumstances behind mutations,was it planned for or just arbitrary happening without prior plan.

Does water "randomly" flow in the same direction down a river? No of course not. Its because the water follows the path of least resistance down a slant on the earth towards and its being pulled from the direction of the center of the earth through the force of gravity.

And if we found a man made channels from the river,will we say that was formed by nature.

Actually it is against science to believe that a designed things can work without a prior plan.

Don't you think that we think before planning anything,but you think that the universe doesn't need any plan,any laws,any calculations in order to work properly,are you still talking science or rubbish,but yes evolution according to your understanding is random,but according to my understanding an intelligent entity planned for it in a scientific way.

I cannot conclude that you are being anything other than dishonest when you continue to state "its a blind/random process".

I were honest more than you are,and i realize that evolution without a prior plan and design is rubbish,at least that is my opinion and you can't call me dishonest for not believing the rubbish ideas.

Why? I have explained numerous times how our minds are the product of evolution rather than god.

I think your mind only,as i don't agree yet that my mind was evolved originally from those Apes.

Why did the egg crack? Because its raining in Bolivia. One has nothing to do with the other. It is not an obvious fact no matter how many times you bring it up. It is an argument from ignorance. Because you do not know the answer does not mean that it is automatically god.

That is irrelevant

Why does objects interacting with each other by utilizing a force that is well known and well documented make it god in the first place.

Do you think these laws and rules that make everything fixed in place in the universe is done without prior plan and design,if you think so,then how you honor science while you defend stupid ideas.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I didn't get your point.
Are you as old as the universe ?

The atoms that make up my body are yes. So in a way I am as old as the universe.

Not guessing,so tell me what happened exactly,what makes apes evolved to humans, Did some sort of foods make Apes evolved to Humans and which foods have such effect for changing the kind,did the climate change the kind.

Your reply should be direct and scientific,so please don't play around.

Looking back over I said I was going to give you a link and then forgot. My apologies.

Human evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course there will be similarities since all creatures are created by the same creator.

It is like finding some similarities between the electronic circuits of the Radio and TV,very normal as the producer and the materials are one.

That doesn't explain why we have the sucession of fossils in a very specific order that provides us a picture by picture frame of refrence of how we evolved and then being able to look at the DNA and find the same sequences and spot the evolutionary changes.

If god simply made it then the DNA should be unique to everyone. There should not be this distinct DNA family tree. But there is. If god just "made" us then we shouldn't have the DNA sequences for gills or a tail, but we do.

Exactly as tracing the human inventions,Before TV,there was the Radio.
But still who produced the Radio is the same as the one who produced the TV,still humans who did it.

But by this logic its still evolution. But instead of god the "maker" is natural selection. God is not needed. The "maker" is naturally explained.

But can never ever exclude God's hand on it.

It can prove it redundant. Without a need and without evidence there is no reason to conclude god. When evidence is provided then we can consider it.

Nice you know that the universe is operated under some laws while you still ignorant of how laws established at first place,i think the problem lies on ones ability to understand,you are still saying the evolution wasn't by random and chance,i ain't talking about natural selection but about the circumstances behind mutations,was it planned for or just arbitrary happening without prior plan.

The laws seem to be inherent. God is not needed to give them. At least there is no evidence to make us assume there is. Anything further is an illogical argument from ignorance.

And if we found a man made channels from the river,will we say that was formed by nature.

Okay. Lets take this for example. If we study a body of water that moves along the mountainside in the track of least resistence. There is no strait edges and it seems that the water itself is what carved out the riverbed. We can assume this from the way that it flows with the mountain's features and how it doesn't intterupt any part of the enviroment.

Now we come across a strait river. The river is unnaturally strait and doesn't follow the landscape and the bottom has edges which makes it look as though the water didn't created it.

Now lets apply this to evolution. If we see a messy trial and error system at work which builds upon past genetic changes and naturally follows by natural slection then we can assume it is from nature.

If we found something that was "perfectly designed" that has no unused DNA or similar DNA then we could assume it was "engineered" or "created".

Which do we see in reality ?

Actually it is against science to believe that a designed things can work without a prior plan.

You keep saying this without any actual evidence to back it up. Forces that shape are not the same thing as "intelligent designer". Complex things are usually the default in nature.

And irriducable complexity is a myth that has been constantly propagated by religiously motivated anti-evolutionist movements. If that is what you are getting at.

Don't you think that we think before planning anything,but you think that the universe doesn't need any plan,any laws,any calculations in order to work properly,are you still talking science or rubbish,but yes evolution according to your understanding is random,but according to my understanding an intelligent entity planned for it in a scientific way.

I think that evolution is the natural consequence of our natural laws. Simple as that. No need to have a designer. No need for a greater plan. If it was designed it kinda sucks that they designed it where the ratio of Livable to non-livable is nearly an infinite lopsided. The universe is not perfectly made to support life. In fact it is mind blowing that we have survived as long as we have.

I were honest more than you are,and i realize that evolution without a prior plan and design is rubbish,at least that is my opinion and you can't call me dishonest for not believing the rubbish ideas.

You are being dishonest. I have told you several times TODAY that it is not a "blind" or "random' process. I have explained in excruciating detail as to why it is not. And yet you continue to call it that. It is dishonest.

I think your mind only,as i don't agree yet that my mind was evolved originally from those Apes.

Feel free to go against all observable evidence. I can't stop you.

That is irrelevant

As was your point. That was my intent was to show you how irrelevant it was.

Do you think these laws and rules that make everything fixed in place in the universe is done without prior plan and design,if you think so,then how you honor science while you defend stupid ideas.

Seeing as science is based off of these "stupid ideas" and every advancement ever made was based off of those ideas...yeah we're the stupid ones.

 

[McBell]

Everything we know is subject to change. Everything came out of force and law. So force and law changes too.

Here is where you start chasing your tail.

But force and law does not change. The unchangeableness of force and law proves to me it comes from something (Someone) who is unchangeable.

Yet you have as yet to show that force and law change...
Until you do so, you are merely chasing your tail.

Where did force and law come from in your opinion? If they have always been a part of the universe why don't they change like the rest of the universe does?

Make up your mind.
Either force and law change or they do not.

That is my proof. It is fine if you call it no proof. I do not care.

It is not proof by any stretch of the imagination.
Hells bells, it it is nothing but empty claims.

You can't even make up your mind as to whether or not force and law change...

 

[Alceste]

Point of fact: apes did not "evolve into humans". Humans are apes.

Great Apes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ouroboros]

That is rubbish and not science.
...
And after one million years it may evolve to Nylon Dinos.

I give up.

Believe what you want.

 

[savagewind]

Here is where you start chasing your tail.


Yet you have as yet to show that force and law change...
Until you do so, you are merely chasing your tail.


Make up your mind.
Either force and law change or they do not.


It is not proof by any stretch of the imagination.
Hells bells, it it is nothing but empty claims.

You can't even make up your mind as to whether or not force and law change...

Haha. Force and law do not change. But according to the pattern they SHOULD. But they don't. LOL
Why don't they fit the pattern? It is because they were created by Someone who does not change. They indeed ARE like their maker.

Thank you for talking to me.

 

[savagewind]

Sorry. You can't believe every thing you read, but you do. Hahaha

 

[savagewind]

Really? LOL. You believed what I wrote "law and force change". Hahahahaa.....I was lying.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

Your looking at the sequence of events rather than "being". For example no atoms in the universe are older than any other. All the matter in our universe is the same age (which is the age of the universe) because there is no "universe" that we reside in but rather we are "part of" the universe. There is no "us" and the "universe".

Well actually, hydrogen and lithium atoms as well as a large percentage of helium atoms are the oldest. All of the heavier atoms were made later in stars.

 

[McBell]

Haha. Force and law do not change. But according to the pattern they SHOULD. But they don't. LOL
Why don't they fit the pattern? It is because they were created by Someone who does not change. They indeed ARE like their maker.

Thank you for talking to me.

What pattern?
Now you are just jumping all over the place.

Are you going to fly home to celebrate your "victory"?

 

[savagewind]

What pattern?
Now you are just jumping all over the place.

Are you going to fly home to celebrate your "victory"?

I just might do that!

Do you really want to know what pattern? The pattern of decay.

From stars to the smallest life form everything decays. Everything changes. The fact that everything in the universe changes, except the two things that caused it, is the pattern. The pattern is change.

Force and law do not follow the pattern.

Why not?

There is another pattern. Everything mimics what it came from. Everything, according to you, except force and law. I just want an example of why that is so. Do you have one?

 

[Iti oj]

I just might do that!

Do you really want to know what pattern? The pattern of decay.

From stars to the smallest life form everything decays. Everything changes. The fact that everything in the universe changes, except the two things that caused it, is the pattern. The pattern is change.

Force and law do not follow the pattern.

Why not?

There is another pattern. Everything mimics what it came from. Everything, according to you, except force and law. I just want an example of why that is so. Do you have one?

How many times do I need to tell you there is no n mechanism thus no change. What's so hard to understand about that. And just so you know that 90% of your posts read as none sense.

 

[savagewind]

How many times do I need to tell you there is no n mechanism thus no change. What's so hard to understand about that. And just so you know that 90% of your posts read as none sense.

Right! What does "there is no n mechanism" mean please? I understand "mechanism" means the process by which something takes place. The universe is taking place by the process of force according to the laws of physics. Is that not so?

 

[FearGod]

Right! What does "there is no n mechanism" mean please? I understand "mechanism" means the process by which something takes place. The universe is taking place by the process of force according to the laws of physics. Is that not so?

They think the laws come later or at the same instant with the universe,i think the problem that they memorize science but they don't think in scientific way.

i gave up with them,let them believe what they want to believe.

 

[McBell]

i gave up with them,let them believe what they want to believe.

Really?
So does this mean you are stopping the chase your tail threads?

 

[Iti oj]

Right! What does "there is no n mechanism" mean please? I understand "mechanism" means the process by which something takes place. The universe is taking place by the process of force according to the laws of physics. Is that not so?

And the universe changes galaxies are born and they die etc. There is no mechanism acting upon the laws so why would they change? Scientist do hope to one day find a law that unifies the rest