The Homosexuals Of Alderaan Want Your Children

[Meow Mix]

Do you understand that God, even in the OT, isn't condemning people because they are attracted to people of the same gender? It's the act that he condemns.

Why?

What about it could hurt God so much that he commands that people be put to death just for sharing their affection for one another?

Have you ever loved someone so much that you'd be willing to die for them in an instant -- that if someone tried to take them away from you, you wouldn't want to live?

That's the sort of horrific stuff God is commanding here to these people. Why?

What makes "god" weak and pathetic enough that people consumating their love and affection for one another offends or damages him somehow?

Do you, Jungle, personally believe that homosexual lovers who consumate their love should be killed? Do you think I should die for sleeping with my fiancee? I know this is a really personal question, and I promise not to be offended and won't take it personally, but I really want to know your answer.

If you do believe I deserve death, then at least you're consistent.

If you think killing me for sleeping with my lover is a bit over the top, then why? Why do you disagree with God?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Why?

What about it could hurt God so much that he commands that people be put to death just for sharing their affection for one another?

Have you ever loved someone so much that you'd be willing to die for them in an instant -- that if someone tried to take them away from you, you wouldn't want to live?

That's the sort of horrific stuff God is commanding here to these people. Why?

What makes "god" weak and pathetic enough that people consumating their love and affection for one another offends or damages him somehow?

Do you, Jungle, personally believe that homosexual lovers who consumate their love should be killed? Do you think I should die for sleeping with my fiancee? I know this is a really personal question, and I promise not to be offended and won't take it personally, but I really want to know your answer.

If you do believe I deserve death, then at least you're consistent.

If you think killing me for sleeping with my lover is a bit over the top, then why? Why do you disagree with God?

Heavens no. If any man took it upon himself to execute a judgement that only God alone is fit to carry out I'd do everything in my power to stop him. If you deserve to die then so do I and everybody else here. I believe we're all lawbreakers in God's eyes. I also believe Jesus ushered in a new era for the relationship between God and man, an era in which God alone executes judgement for man's sins. You'll see several changes between the old and new testaments. An "eye for an eye" is how the OT God commanded people deal with lawbreakers. We see Jesus bringing in "turn the other cheek." We see stoning commanded for certain sins in the OT and Jesus bringing in the command to not judge your neighbor. For the Christian, these represent a process of God taking an uncivilized, lawless people, toward the eventual goal of making us in the image of Jesus. So you see, I believe I'm only in agreement with God when I don't play the role of judge.

 

[Meow Mix]

Heavens no. If any man took it upon himself to execute a judgement that only God alone is fit to carry out I'd do everything in my power to stop him. If you deserve to die then so do I and everybody else here. I believe we're all lawbreakers in God's eyes. I also believe Jesus ushered in a new era for the relationship between God and man, an era in which God alone executes judgement for man's sins. You'll see several changes between the old and new testaments. An "eye for an eye" is how the OT God commanded people deal with lawbreakers. We see Jesus bringing in "turn the other cheek." We see stoning commanded for certain sins in the OT and Jesus bringing in the command to not judge your neighbor. For the Christian, these represent a process of God taking an uncivilized, lawless people, toward the eventual goal of making us in the image of Jesus. So you see, I believe I'm only in agreement with God when I don't play the role of judge.

I'm still not sure why you wouldn't raise your eyebrows over God ever commanding people to kill lovers just for expressing that love. Does that not repulse you? Do you not wonder, "How could God have been so wicked and harsh, even if it was in the past?" What if God once said, "kill people with blue eyes that eat fish on Tuesdays," but then the following week redacted that. Does that change that it was a malevolent, murderous, evil command -- even if it was redacted later?

While I appreciate the response you gave, I'm curious why you neglected to comment on the deepest and most important issues being discussed here: why God is weak enough to be damaged or insulted by lovers consumating their affection.

You haven't commented on whether or not you think it's fairly bigoted to command death for lovers merely expressing said love.

It seems like you're comfortable condemning homosexuality as an act, but you walk on eggshells when it comes to explaining:

1) Why it should be condemned
2) Why it's not bigotry to condemn it (e.g. if you prefer, why it's not bigotry for God to condemn it)
3) In what way it even remotely affects God for Him to get upset over it, since it harms nobody else

Why is no one willing to directly answer these points -- these points which are at the very foundation of this whole discussion? They're like three gigantic elephants in three corners of the room that folks with anti-homosexual inclinations keep looking at out of the corner of their eyes, but then completely ignore. Why?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm still not sure why you wouldn't raise your eyebrows over God ever commanding people to kill lovers just for expressing that love. Does that not repulse you? Do you not wonder, "How could God have been so wicked and harsh, even if it was in the past?"

While I appreciate the response you gave, I'm curious why you neglected to comment on the deepest and most important issues being discussed here: why God is weak enough to be damaged or insulted by lovers consumating their affection.

You haven't commented on whether or not you think it's fairly bigoted to command death for lovers merely expressing said love.

It seems like you're comfortable condemning homosexuality as an act, but you walk on eggshells when it comes to explaining:

1) Why it should be condemned
2) Why it's not bigotry to condemn it (e.g. if you prefer, why it's not bigotry for God to condemn it)
3) In what way it even remotely affects God for Him to get upset over it, since it harms nobody else

Why is no one willing to directly answer these points -- these points which are at the very foundation of this whole discussion? They're like three gigantic elephants in three corners of the room that folks with anti-homosexual inclinations keep looking at out of the corner of their eyes, but then completely ignore. Why?

Here's my response to that. The reason why homosexuality is a sin has been one of the tougher issues for me to grapple with. To me the answer is not nearly as obvious as the question of heterosexual sex before marriage which results in children no one is ready to take care of. The bottomline is that the Christian God views it as unhealthy for the oneself. The reality is that plenty of studies show alot of homosexual practitioners dealing with high rates of depression as well as other mental illnesses and substance abuse. I understand that those are usually written off as the products of discrimination and hate but I wonder if it's that simple. I wonder if there is possibly a dual component of discrimination and an unhealthy lifestyle contributing to the problem. I think the Christian God says that he has something better for all of us, something that will satisfy us even more than things we often try to bring satisfaction to ourselves. I also think the fear of wondering what we're going to do, how we're going to be satisfied of we abandon the things we trust in can get in the way of doing what God wills.

 

[Me Myself]

Here's my response to that. The reason why homosexuality is a sin has been one of the tougher issues for me to grapple with. To me the answer is not nearly as obvious as the question of heterosexual sex before marriage which results in children no one is ready to take care of. The bottomline is that the Christian God views it as unhealthy for the oneself. The reality is that plenty of studies show alot of homosexual practitioners dealing with depression as well as other mental illnesses and substance abuse. I understand that those are usually written off as the products of discrimination and hate but I wonder if it's that simple. I wonder if there is possibly a dual component of discrimination and an unhealthy lifestyle contributing to the problem. I think the Christian God says that he has something better for all of us, something that will satisfy us even more than things we often try to bring satisfaction to ourselves. I also think the fear of wondering what we're going to do, how we're going to be satisfied of we abandon the things we trust in can get in the way of doing what God wills.

That´s nice and all.

Shouldn´t we be avoiding pork?

Stoning to death children when they misbehave?

Cutting the hands of the women that try to defend their husbands by grapling their opponents by the balls? (okay, I swear that´s on the bible (no sarcasm) )

Making holes in the ground with a stake so we can make number two in there and remembering to cover it up? (again, it is truly in the bible)

Sacrificing animals to get our sins forgiven?

Forcing a someone to marry the wife of his brother if said brother has died without giving children to his wife if the wife so chooses?

All this things are in the bible, most in the OT. If you cherry pick homosexuality as the one where God really meant it and the rest as stuff that´s not contemporary any more, then you have a problem.

The "homosexuality is bad" thing is in the OT, never said by Jesus himself like all of the previous things were in the OT never confirmed by Jesus. So if you just dismiss the others as not important, then you can do the same with homosexuality.

So the argument of "God said it" doesn´t really even exist here.

 

[Meow Mix]

Here's my response to that. The reason why homosexuality is a sin has been one of the tougher issues for me to grapple with. To me the answer is not nearly as obvious as the question of heterosexual sex before marriage which results in children no one is ready to take care of. The bottomline is that the Christian God views it as unhealthy for the oneself. The reality is that plenty of studies show alot of homosexual practitioners dealing with high rates of depression as well as other mental illnesses and substance abuse. I understand that those are usually written off as the products of discrimination and hate but I wonder if it's that simple. I wonder if there is possibly a dual component of discrimination and an unhealthy lifestyle contributing to the problem. I think the Christian God says that he has something better for all of us, something that will satisfy us even more than things we often try to bring satisfaction to ourselves. I also think the fear of wondering what we're going to do, how we're going to be satisfied of we abandon the things we trust in can get in the way of doing what God wills.

Regarding those studies, have you ever considered that some studies were conducted only on the "openly out" people who were already living in dangerous lifestyles/subcultures?

Do you know, and I don't ask this question condescendingly because it's possible that many people really don't, that most homosexuals don't have a different "lifestyle" at all from heterosexuals? Did you know that you probably know several homosexuals and that you don't even know it because they don't have a different "lifestyle" from you?

For instance, consider me. I'm very happy. I would consider myself extremely satisfied with my life. This is especially the case since I fell in love -- with another woman. I feel that my life satisfaction would greatly diminish in her absence, as a matter of fact. In what sense is homosexuality supposed to depress people? The only reason why it might, I suspect, you already recognize: the only reason homosexuals have to feel depressed just for the sake of being homosexual is solely because of the oppression and alienation they might get the brunt of by anti-homosexual folks.

(People telling you that you're fundamentally evil for just loving who you love, even if you're not harming anyone or affecting anyone, can tend to do that!)

So, speaking from firsthand experience, I can tell you that you're misperceiving this issue. Homosexuals aren't depressed in general, and those that might be depressed are either depressed for normal reasons that heterosexuals get depressed over too, or they're depressed because they're oppressed.

---------

Secondly, I'm still curious why homosexuality ever at any time deserved death upon consumation. This issue is still being pussyfooted around, I think. Do you think death was a harsh penalty just for lovers expressing love? Do you think they deserved it, that God was being just and wise for ordering it?

Can you imagine a regular person -- not whatever cartoonish caricature you have of what "gay people" are in your mind, perhaps -- but a regular person, perhaps like me, laying dead on the ground; slain simply for sharing intimacy with the person that fills their heart with joy? A person who hasn't hurt anyone, hasn't affected anyone, has only shared in an act of beauty with the person that completes them in the privacy of their home -- can you imagine that person bloodied and dead, and can you imagine at the same time that they deserve it, and that God was just and holy for commanding it?

Can you really?

 

[Me Myself]

Stoned, wasn´t it? not a very good dead even if you are already executing anyone.

 

[waitasec]

can you imagine that person bloodied and dead, and can you imagine at the same time that they deserve it, and that God was just and holy for commanding it?

Can you really?

i can't. but i can imagine people who are afraid of differences and use god as a scapegoat in order to justify their feelings about it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Regarding those studies, have you ever considered that some studies were conducted only on the "openly out" people who were already living in dangerous lifestyles/subcultures?

Do you know, and I don't ask this question condescendingly because it's possible that many people really don't, that most homosexuals don't have a different "lifestyle" at all from heterosexuals? Did you know that you probably know several homosexuals and that you don't even know it because they don't have a different "lifestyle" from you?

For instance, consider me. I'm very happy. I would consider myself extremely satisfied with my life. This is especially the case since I fell in love -- with another woman. I feel that my life satisfaction would greatly diminish in her absence, as a matter of fact. In what sense is homosexuality supposed to depress people? The only reason why it might, I suspect, you already recognize: the only reason homosexuals have to feel depressed just for the sake of being homosexual is solely because of the oppression and alienation they might get the brunt of by anti-homosexual folks.

(People telling you that you're fundamentally evil for just loving who you love, even if you're not harming anyone or affecting anyone, can tend to do that!)

So, speaking from firsthand experience, I can tell you that you're misperceiving this issue. Homosexuals aren't depressed in general, and those that might be depressed are either depressed for normal reasons that heterosexuals get depressed over too, or they're depressed because they're oppressed.

---------

Secondly, I'm still curious why homosexuality ever at any time deserved death upon consumation. This issue is still being pussyfooted around, I think. Do you think death was a harsh penalty just for lovers expressing love? Do you think they deserved it, that God was being just and wise for ordering it?

Can you imagine a regular person -- not whatever cartoonish caricature you have of what "gay people" are in your mind, perhaps -- but a regular person, perhaps like me, laying dead on the ground; slain simply for sharing intimacy with the person that fills their heart with joy? A person who hasn't hurt anyone, hasn't affected anyone, has only shared in an act of beauty with the person that completes them in the privacy of their home -- can you imagine that person bloodied and dead, and can you imagine at the same time that they deserve it, and that God was just and holy for commanding it?

Can you really?

I believe God takes a much harsher view toward sin than we do. I believe he hates it with every fiber of his being. I believe in a God who is willing to admister an eternal punishment for those who are not willing to live under his rule which for in his eyes is lawlessness. To my finite understanding, does it seem excessive to stone someone for anything less than murder? Absolutely. Will my finite understanding be my only compass? No, I don't trust it enough, and I believe there is something better for all of us.

 

[waitasec]

I believe God takes a much harsher view toward sin than we do. I believe he hates it with every fiber of his being. I believe in a God who is willing to admister an eternal punishment for those who are not willing to live under his rule which for in his eyes is lawlessness. To my finite understanding, does it seem excessive to stone someone for anything less than murder? Absolutely. Will my finite understanding be my only compass? No, I don't trust it enough, and I believe there is something better for all of us.

your god hates... interesting.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

your god hates... interesting.

He hates the action not the person

 

[Me Myself]

I believe God takes a much harsher view toward sin than we do. I believe he hates it with every fiber of his being. I believe in a God who is willing to admister an eternal punishment for those who are not willing to live under his rule which for in his eyes is lawlessness. To my finite understanding, does it seem excessive to stone someone for anything less than murder? Absolutely. Will my finite understanding be my only compass? No, I don't trust it enough, and I believe there is something better for all of us.

In other words, most of us have more compassion than this "God", including those who profess believe in him...

I truly beleive a lot of peope like you need to have their spider senses tingling like crazy about that one ASAP.

 

[Meow Mix]

Also, on my drive home from work, I thought of something else.

With respect to "studies show..." type arguments about homosexuals and STD's, depression, suicides, drugs, and other correlations with nastier sides of society...

I've already pointed out that homosexuals aren't necessarily (in fact, aren't usually) part of a distinct "culture" or "lifestyle" from homosexuals, but this analogy will, I hope, help to demonstrate what I mean by that.

What's the first thing you think of if I told you that someone rides a Harley?

Do you think of the stereotypical caricature of a biker guy, rude, part of a "biker gang," maybe smelly, definitely part of a different "culture" or "lifestyle?" It's hard not to, sometimes.

But does riding a Harley necessarily mean you're part of a different culture or lifestyle? Of course not -- there are regular everyday people that ride Harleys that have nothing to do with all that.

So consider a hypothetical scenario where a guy says he rides a Harley at work, and his coworkers are shocked and start saying things like, "Studies show that people who ride Harleys are more likely to carry STD's, are more prone to violence, etc., etc., etc.?"

See the glaring error in their "reasoning" there?

Likewise, most homosexuals aren't part of any sort of "homosexual culture" or "homosexual lifestyle." They're everyday people like you. (I can with confidence insert here, "or me," because I'm certainly not part of any sort of "homosexual culture.")

Does that make more sense? Can you see how it's unfair to say homosexuals are more prone to all these societal ills because of their "lifestyle," when most of us aren't even sure what you mean by "homosexual lifestyle?"

It's just as much a mistake to assume that homosexuals are more prone to STD's, cheating, promiscuity, depression, and so on just because they are homosexual as it is to say the same about someone just because they happen to ride Harleys. (Yes, the analogy is imperfect because ostensibly people choose to ride Harleys or not, but hopefully you get the point.)

 

[Me Myself]

He hates the action not the person

Hate is an emotion, what we see in the bible are rules.

So not only does this "God" feels hate, but he also lets it influence his better judgement?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

In other words, most of us have more compassion than this "God", including those who profess believe in him...

I truly beleive a lot of peope like you need to have their spider senses tingling like crazy about that one ASAP.

Have you ever faced the punishment that your sins deserved at the hands of God? Or has he patiently bore with you even when you didn't deserve it?

 

[waitasec]

He hates the action not the person

is that your way of justifying that your god is capable of hating anything?

 

[blackout]

.......
For instance, consider me. I'm very happy. I would consider myself extremely satisfied with my life. This is especially the case since I fell in love -- with another woman. I feel that my life satisfaction would greatly diminish in her absence, as a matter of fact. In what sense is homosexuality supposed to depress people? The only reason why it might, I suspect, you already recognize: the only reason homosexuals have to feel depressed just for the sake of being homosexual is solely because of the oppression and alienation they might get the brunt of by anti-homosexual folks.

(People telling you that you're fundamentally evil for just loving who you love, even if you're not harming anyone or affecting anyone, can tend to do that!)

So, speaking from firsthand experience, I can tell you that you're misperceiving this issue. Homosexuals aren't depressed in general, and those that might be depressed are either depressed for normal reasons that heterosexuals get depressed over too, or they're depressed because they're oppressed.

let's see, what's more depressing...

1. loving who you love

or

2. being treated as a second (or third) class citizen
for loving who you love.

 

[waitasec]

Have you ever faced the punishment that your sins deserved at the hands of God? Or has he patiently bore with you even when you didn't deserve it?

why would loving someone of the same sex deserve punishment?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

When I used the word "lifestyle" I was just refering to the practicing of homosexual acts as a pattern of living. I wasn't talking about any other elements that might be part of a homosexual subculture.

Also, on my drive home from work, I thought of something else.

With respect to "studies show..." type arguments about homosexuals and STD's, depression, suicides, drugs, and other correlations with nastier sides of society...

I've already pointed out that homosexuals aren't necessarily (in fact, aren't usually) part of a distinct "culture" or "lifestyle" from homosexuals, but this analogy will, I hope, help to demonstrate what I mean by that.

What's the first thing you think of if I told you that someone rides a Harley?

Do you think of the stereotypical caricature of a biker guy, rude, part of a "biker gang," maybe smelly, definitely part of a different "culture" or "lifestyle?" It's hard not to, sometimes.

But does riding a Harley necessarily mean you're part of a different culture or lifestyle? Of course not -- there are regular everyday people that ride Harleys that have nothing to do with all that.

So consider a hypothetical scenario where a guy says he rides a Harley at work, and his coworkers are shocked and start saying things like, "Studies show that people who ride Harleys are more likely to carry STD's, are more prone to violence, etc., etc., etc.?"

See the glaring error in their "reasoning" there?

Likewise, most homosexuals aren't part of any sort of "homosexual culture" or "homosexual lifestyle." They're everyday people like you. (I can with confidence insert here, "or me," because I'm certainly not part of any sort of "homosexual culture.")

Does that make more sense? Can you see how it's unfair to say homosexuals are more prone to all these societal ills because of their "lifestyle," when most of us aren't even sure what you mean by "homosexual lifestyle?"

It's just as much a mistake to assume that homosexuals are more prone to STD's, cheating, promiscuity, depression, and so on just because they are homosexual as it is to say the same about someone just because they happen to ride Harleys. (Yes, the analogy is imperfect because ostensibly people choose to ride Harleys or not, but hopefully you get the point.)

 

[Meow Mix]

I believe God takes a much harsher view toward sin than we do. I believe he hates it with every fiber of his being. I believe in a God who is willing to admister an eternal punishment for those who are not willing to live under his rule which for in his eyes is lawlessness. To my finite understanding, does it seem excessive to stone someone for anything less than murder? Absolutely. Will my finite understanding be my only compass? No, I don't trust it enough, and I believe there is something better for all of us.

Are you saying that you morally disagree with what God does, but you trust that God is right anyway?

How do you know you aren't actually worshipping a demon?

He hates the action not the person

Yet he's willing to cause or allow the person to be in absolute torment -- forever?

I seriously question your morals if you actually find this acceptable. I would be truly frightened -- scared to the bone -- if I had to rely on someone who held such beliefs for my well being because I wouldn't trust that they'd be able to make morally upstanding choices. It seems to me that such people aren't moral at all.