The hymen doesn't work that way, bible.

[allfoak]

This line of reasoning will never stand up, and frankly, needs to stop being used. When I am attempting to correct my children's behavior, do I leave my words open to their interpretation? No. Do I preface everything I say with "Now don't take this literally, but...?" No. I tell them what they need to know in order to make sure they do not behave in the wrong manner again. I tell them why it is wrong, and expound, if necessary. And I believe to do otherwise would make me a very poor father indeed.

You can talk to God like that if you want.
Everyone can.

The Bible was written in the language of the soul.
It was written this way because it is impossible to communicate the mysteries of life through the use of common language.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But that particular verse is referring to girls under 12. Verse 16 quotes the father as saying that he gave his daughter to the man [in marriage]. Over the age of 12, the daughter accepts marriages on her own, not through her father. So this verse is referring to a girl under 12.
Also, I think girls over 19 were also allowed to get married.

They could get married after 19, but marriage consummation wasn't until 15 (14 at the earliest) even if given by the father.
Besides, a year wouldn't change the fundamental size and function of a hymen. Mine broke horseback riding when I was 10 and didn't heal. (And I know this because my menstruation cycle was showing signs of endometriosis so my lady parts were frequently tested at the time) I would have been killed, because my virginity couldn't have been proven.

 

[allfoak]

How would you interpret this in a less literal way?

Knowing that the scriptures teach the cosmology of mind and being as well as about the forces that exist within us, i look at how the verses may relate to these things.

I hope you are not thinking i should give you an interpretation because that would just be foolish on my part.
We do not teach the scriptures to one another,we learn from our soul what it means.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You can talk to God like that if you want.
Everyone can.

The Bible was written in the language of the soul.
It was written this way because it is impossible to communicate the mysteries of life through the use of common language.

I can't help but think of this:

 

[rosends]

They could get married after 19, but marriage consummation wasn't until 15 (14 at the earliest) even if given by the father.
Besides, a year wouldn't change the fundamental size and function of a hymen. Mine broke horseback riding when I was 10 and didn't heal. (And I know this because my menstruation cycle was showing signs of endometriosis so my lady parts were frequently tested at the time) I would have been killed, because my virginity couldn't have been proven.

interestingly, the talmud discusses cases like yours. The category is called "mukat eitz" and the woman involved is not killed.

 

[allfoak]

I can't help but think of this:

That is not the case for myself.
I demand integrity in my life.

I do not support the peter pan style of interpretation.

 

[Thana]

Gonna take a moment to talk about something kind of squicky to some people, and that's female anatomy. Specifically a hymen, which is a somewhat petaled, arch-like tissue that lines the external opening of the vagina. Most people world over believes that this is something virgins have and non-virgins don't. The problem is...
that is completely incorrect. To a huge extent!

Notice that it 'partly encloses'. There is a disorder that causes the hymen to be more like the barrier most people think of the hymen as, and it has to be surgically removed to allow for menstrual flow. But that is a rare exception.
There even is a study which shows that 52% of the studied individuals, the hymen was still smooth and completely intact in teens which were sexually active. (link) That's because in most cases the hymen doesn't cover enough of the vagina to interrupt penetration. And even if it does, hymens can heal if the damage isn't too great. Further, damage to the hymen can be done by other perfectly normal activities like doing the splits, taking an ugly fall, riding horseback and so on.
This means one very important thing: There is no such thing as reasonable or accurate virginity testing for women.

This doesn't sound like it's a revolutionary concept, but it is. For goodness sake, even dictionaries sometimes gets this fundamental fact wrong: "noun, Anatomy.
1.
a fold of mucous membrane partly closing the external orifice of the vagina in a virgin." (Dictionary.com Bold emphasis mine. Thankfully Miriam Webster omits that little bit).

The problem is a lot of cultures still desire women to be a virgin at the time of their betrothal (including ours.) Some even still preform virginity tests where bleeding after sex and the finger inspections of the hymen are used to determine whether or not the woman is still a virgin. Even though it's false standard.

The bible is no exception to this ancient practice. In Deuteronomy 22:13-21 it says:"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,' then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. And the young woman's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 'Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter was not a virgin," and yet these are the evidences of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you"

As I hope you all understand by now, this is totally bull****.This woman's life relies on a completely inaccurate test. How many women do you suppose were stoned after their virginity was called into doubt because some completely unrelated activity tore the hymen? Or because the hymen was simply not broken during sex?
Or how many women were saved, not because they didn't commit adultery, but because their hymens healed and tore again?

Christians are quick to point out that this scripture is part of the old covenant and not enforceable by Christians today. Fewer doubt, however, that the old covenant was indeed handed down by God to the ancient Israelites. But my question to you is...why in the world would God give this instruction in the first place? I'm assuming he would have known this bit of female anatomy trivia already. So why make a completely bonkers test that could easily end with an innocent woman getting killed? The only thing that makes sense to me is this wasn't written by a divinely inspired author, but was a hold out of the cultural misconceptions that have endured in some places even to this day.

Somebody has been watching Adam ruins everything hmmm?

What is interesting to me is that no one ever gets their panties in a twist when the bible tells us something that's clearly supposed to be taken as a historical recounting or a poem or a biography, But anything controversial is then literal and Gods word because otherwise I can't get mad at the bible and God and feel justified in my disbelief.

Bleh. I get so tired of people sometimes.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

interestingly, the talmud discusses cases like yours. The category is called "mukat eitz" and the woman involved is not killed.

I wouldn't have known if my condition hadn't been closely monitored for other reasons.

Can you tell me how one establishes female virginity? Because everything I've read hence far from a biological perspective has said you really can't.

 

[Tumah]

They could get married after 19, but marriage consummation wasn't until 15 (14 at the earliest) even if given by the father.

I don't think that's correct. A number of Talmudic passages discuss marriages that were consummated before the age of 12. It doesn't seem likely that marriages were consummated earlier as time went on.

Besides, a year wouldn't change the fundamental size and function of a hymen. Mine broke horseback riding when I was 10 and didn't heal. (And I know this because my menstruation cycle was showing signs of endometriosis so my lady parts were frequently tested at the time) I would have been killed, because my virginity couldn't have been proven.

Considering that animals were rode often during Biblical times, it stands to reason that the possibility of the hymen breaking through other means was probably well known to them.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Somebody has been watching Adam ruins everything hmmm?

What is interesting to me is that no one ever gets their panties in a twist when the bible tells us something that's clearly supposed to be taken as a historical recounting or a poem or a biography, But anything controversial is then literal and Gods word because otherwise I can't get mad at the bible and God and feel justified in my disbelief.

Bleh. I get so tired of people sometimes.

People do talk about biblical historical accounting all the time, with various historians disagreeing with or agreeing with the veracity of biblical claims, similarly with biographies.
People do talk about poems too, both from ethical considerations as well as narrative ones.

But this jumped out at me because most Christians believe the Mosaic law was handed down by God and applicable and relevant to it's time. I.e. Limitations on foods which are more likely to contain pathogens.
But this particular instruction is nonsensical. There's no way for it to be even situationally relevant due to fundamental flaws in its very precept.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Considering that animals were rode often during Biblical times, it stands to reason that the possibility of the hymen breaking through other means was probably well known to them.

Most people don't know that today. They still think the hymen is a physical barrier to sex unless it rips. If they knew that's not true then why pretend the father or husband could present physical evidence of virginity?

 

[Tumah]

Most people don't know that today. They still think the hymen is a physical barrier to sex unless it rips. If they knew that's not true then why pretend the father or husband could present physical evidence of virginity?

Most people don't know that today, because most people don't ride bumpy animals, they drive smooth travelling cars. They also don't have to work half as hard as people did back then. I am sure breaking hymens was much more common then than it is today. And if it was more common, more people were probably aware of it. And if people were aware of it, then we may be able to come up with a reason why the verse requires that the father go to the elders of the city first, rather than just gathering up the gaggle of guys to stone her.

 

[Thana]

People do talk about biblical historical accounting all the time, with various historians disagreeing with or agreeing with the veracity of biblical claims, similarly with biographies.
People do talk about poems too, both from ethical considerations as well as narrative ones.

But this jumped out at me because most Christians believe the Mosaic law was handed down by God and applicable and relevant to it's time. I.e. Limitations on foods which are more likely to contain pathogens.
But this particular instruction is nonsensical. There's no way for it to be even situationally relevant due to fundamental flaws in its very precept.

You automatically assume error, I automatically assume there's an explanation.

And let's be honest we're talking about very, very young girls here. The probability of them bleeding during their first time would be pretty darn high.
I think this scripture is pretty valid, and regardless, they understood even then that bleeding didn't always necessarily indicate virginity that's why they had the whole thing of proving the issue and not just with blood but with witnesses and character references believe it or not.

 

[rosends]

I wouldn't have known if my condition hadn't been closely monitored for other reasons.

Can you tell me how one establishes female virginity? Because everything I've read hence far from a biological perspective has said you really can't.

I recall learning about methods which may or may not be scientific. I never investigated them. They didn't revolve around a medical exam. I honestly don't know if they were intended to be a physical test or a divinely inspired process which would lead to a discovery not via a biological event but a revelation from a higher authority.

 

[outhouse]

Strange how Jesus was crucified for being a false prophet.

That simply is not what we call true.

It is apologetic rhetoric

 

[Robert.Evans]

Gonna take a moment to talk about something kind of squicky to some people, and that's female anatomy. Specifically a hymen, which is a somewhat petaled, arch-like tissue that lines the external opening of the vagina. Most people world over believes that this is something virgins have and non-virgins don't. The problem is...
that is completely incorrect. To a huge extent!

Notice that it 'partly encloses'. There is a disorder that causes the hymen to be more like the barrier most people think of the hymen as, and it has to be surgically removed to allow for menstrual flow. But that is a rare exception.
There even is a study which shows that 52% of the studied individuals, the hymen was still smooth and completely intact in teens which were sexually active. (link) That's because in most cases the hymen doesn't cover enough of the vagina to interrupt penetration. And even if it does, hymens can heal if the damage isn't too great. Further, damage to the hymen can be done by other perfectly normal activities like doing the splits, taking an ugly fall, riding horseback and so on.
This means one very important thing: There is no such thing as reasonable or accurate virginity testing for women.

This doesn't sound like it's a revolutionary concept, but it is. For goodness sake, even dictionaries sometimes gets this fundamental fact wrong: "noun, Anatomy.
1.
a fold of mucous membrane partly closing the external orifice of the vagina in a virgin." (Dictionary.com Bold emphasis mine. Thankfully Miriam Webster omits that little bit).

The problem is a lot of cultures still desire women to be a virgin at the time of their betrothal (including ours.) Some even still preform virginity tests where bleeding after sex and the finger inspections of the hymen are used to determine whether or not the woman is still a virgin. Even though it's false standard.

The bible is no exception to this ancient practice. In Deuteronomy 22:13-21 it says:"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,' then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. And the young woman's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 'Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter was not a virgin," and yet these are the evidences of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you"

As I hope you all understand by now, this is totally bull****.This woman's life relies on a completely inaccurate test. How many women do you suppose were stoned after their virginity was called into doubt because some completely unrelated activity tore the hymen? Or because the hymen was simply not broken during sex?
Or how many women were saved, not because they didn't commit adultery, but because their hymens healed and tore again?

Christians are quick to point out that this scripture is part of the old covenant and not enforceable by Christians today. Fewer doubt, however, that the old covenant was indeed handed down by God to the ancient Israelites. But my question to you is...why in the world would God give this instruction in the first place? I'm assuming he would have known this bit of female anatomy trivia already. So why make a completely bonkers test that could easily end with an innocent woman getting killed? The only thing that makes sense to me is this wasn't written by a divinely inspired author, but was a hold out of the cultural misconceptions that have endured in some places even to this day.

Interesting post.
But the Bible quote was in Deut. The original first law was Exodus, and then only truly ten commandments were given by God written in stone; a pointless act if he then was going to give hundreds of others.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That simply is not what we call true.

It is apologetic rhetoric

Not what you call true, not "we".

 

[Robert.Evans]

You're right. We stoned him.

That was the law, correct?

 

[Robert.Evans]

They could get married after 19, but marriage consummation wasn't until 15 (14 at the earliest) even if given by the father.
Besides, a year wouldn't change the fundamental size and function of a hymen. Mine broke horseback riding when I was 10 and didn't heal. (And I know this because my menstruation cycle was showing signs of endometriosis so my lady parts were frequently tested at the time) I would have been killed, because my virginity couldn't have been proven.

Interesting post again.
I guess the answer to that is don't ride horses.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I can't help but think of this:

Everything in the bible is true, but it doesn't mean you will like it and certainly doesn't mean you will understand it. But then, it's not supposed to be an easy read.