The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[Deeje]

Of course......
Our JWs still deliver the odd message or mag to our post boxes, and so when we saw them cycling on to our driveway we went out to them and gestured to chairs put outside for visitors. Had the most pleasant meeting and chat without breaking any rules. Where we live cycling was permitted right through the lockdown as a means of exercise, so out came the JW bikes.

So good to hear that OB. It highlights that when a door closes, a window of opportunity opens. What a great idea!

The Witnesses have grown here, so quickly that the (fairly new and large) Kingdom Hall is much too small and the congregation is split in to East and West groups. These two groups rotate their meeting times between morning and afternoon congregations.

Yes, I am in a shared Kingdom Hall myself. And I am in a rural area. Too many for one Kingdom Hall. We are having our meetings via the internet at the moment. The second wave is hitting hard as people continue to ignore the safety precautions. This virus is very real. We have lost some of our own to it.

Our increase is not surprising to us as people see what’s happening in the world and they wonder what these “Job-like” and seemingly endless string of horrendous disasters, mean....and with political instability shaping up for more senseless conflict.....they are seeking answers.....we believe that the Bible has the answers and more importantly, it has the solution and speaks of a wonderful future that takes us beyond the present troubles. People need hope in what appears to be a hopeless situation.

All the best,

And to you and yours....

 

[Deeje]

Hmm. Haha, I was asking specific questions about the faith of the JW's you know because I honestly dont know any JW's scholars and have not really gone into theology of it.

For JW’s, “theology” is the study of God’s sovereignty, his laws, his personality, his actions and his purpose as outlined in the Bible, not as interpreted by the churches. We understand the role of Jesus very differently to Christendom.

We would not attend a theological college, seeking academic degrees in order to establish our authenticity as teachers of God’s word, but take the first century approach of allowing the scriptures themselves to teach us about God and this in turn creates a relationship with Jehovah and his son that an academic approach simply does not provide.

It is of interest to note that the Jewish religious leaders stumbled over the fact that Jesus and his apostles had not attended the rabbinical schools. Jesus actually said that their education was worthless because it did not produce any positive qualities in them, nor did their interpretation of scripture have much merit. It made them heartless legalists....he said that they were headed for “Gehenna” and so were all those who accepted their teachings, which he likened to “leaven” (a symbol of corruption.) We take that seriously because Jesus warned that it was going to happen again. “Weeds” would be sown among the “wheat” with both ’growing together’ until “the end”. The ”harvest” would see the ”weeds”gathered first, and disposed of.

I have noted for years and years that most people dont really answer a simple question with a simple or in-depth explanation but they get offended or say a lot of things like a sermon someone would give to rosy up another and convert him. This is why its very difficult to get answers to a question from people. But I must say that Christians as a whole have immense scholarship and you learn this scholarship in academia. But that's not theology.

God does not recognise academic degrees as ‘the be all and end all’....he actually warns against the idea that intelligence matters more than a heartfelt desire to please him. As Jesus said, we must become like young children.....humble, teachable, trusting what God says but not blindly.
He said at Luke 10:21....
“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.“

Scholarship regarding original language words and their meaning is very helpful in determining what the original writers had in mind.
We have to have all things confirmed by God’s word, but taking too much of an intellectual approach can simply muddy what should be clear waters. The KISS principle works in many instances.

TO understand the theology you have to ask questions from the faithful because scholarship is not dominantly theological but analytical. The analytical side can be read in curriculum and books which are extensive, but the theology varies and especially JW's theology I have never read except one book I read when I was a child which I just liked for the pictures. In the midst of those who never answer directly, agree or disagree, I respect your responses.

I call ‘em as I see ‘em .....I have been studying the Bible now for most of my adult life. I studied for two years before committing myself to baptism as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1972. I continue to be a Bible student because it is subject that has no end...no one knows it all, and I continue to learn as I teach.

The one fact that stands out clearly to me from my studies, is that God sees the human race vastly differently to how they view themselves. From his perspective, there are only two roads and two distinct categories of people, who are on one road or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) All humanity, regardless of how they identify (religious or not) place themselves on one of those roads......one leads to life and the other to death.....it’s really that simple and sobering. We choose our own path by the exercise of our own free will. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves. We are telling God all about ourselves just by the way we live our lives and what is going on in our thinking processes....and in our hearts.

FWIW....here is a link for our two volume Bible Study aid called “Insight on the Scriptures” that will hopefully convey the depth of our ”scholarship”. It’s a comprehensive, alphabetical guide to all things biblical.....people, places and subjects.

Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Thanks for your input. And of course if I have more questions I would ask for sure, and I will. Cheers.

Always happy to oblige.....take care.

 

[firedragon]

We would not attend a theological college, seeking academic degrees in order to establish our authenticity as teachers of God’s word, but take the first century approach of allowing the scriptures themselves to teach us about God and this in turn creates a relationship with Jehovah and his son that an academic approach simply does not provide.

There is a big difference between theological college and academic education though lots of people transform from one to another. When I refer to scholars I mean critical scholars, not theologians.

It is of interest to note that the Jewish religious leaders stumbled over the fact that Jesus and his apostles had not attended the rabbinical schools. Jesus actually said that their education was worthless because it did not produce any positive qualities in them, nor did their interpretation of scripture have much merit. It made them heartless legalists....he said that they were headed for “Gehenna” and so were all those who accepted their teachings, which he likened to “leaven” (a symbol of corruption.) We take that seriously because Jesus warned that it was going to happen again. “Weeds” would be sown among the “wheat” with both ’growing together’ until “the end”. The ”harvest” would see the ”weeds”gathered first, and disposed of.

Rabbinical school I am not familiar with because I have never attended.

God does not recognise academic degrees as ‘the be all and end all

Nope. I didnt claim God said that. But if you completely deny scholarship then you are simply disqualifying based on the genetic fallacy a wealth of understanding by default. Its your prerogative. But I can't understand why you would bring this argument.

Scholarship regarding original language words and their meaning is very helpful in determining what the original writers had in mind.
We have to have all things confirmed by God’s word, but taking too much of an intellectual approach can simply muddy what should be clear waters. The KISS principle works in many instances.

I think you should not do that because you just negated scholarship.

The one fact that stands out clearly to me from my studies, is that God sees the human race vastly differently to how they view themselves. From his perspective, there are only two roads and two distinct categories of people, who are on one road or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Thats fine.

FWIW....here is a link for our two volume Bible Study aid called “Insight on the Scriptures” that will hopefully convey the depth of our ”scholarship”. It’s a comprehensive, alphabetical guide to all things biblical.....people, places and subjects.

Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I definitely will read.

Thanks again.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe as PT Barnum said: There is one born every day. A sucker that is.

Another lovely sentiment from yet another kind of Christian.
So far this week I've read that folks 'not in the same church' as the writers have been 'swine', 'dogs', 'satan's children', and now 'suckers'.

I once believed that nearly all of Christianity was about love, but some of you folks have battered that idea to pieces quite thoroughly.

And what Church do you belong to, may we all know?
Please do tell.....

 

[Deeje]

When I refer to scholars I mean critical scholars, not theologians.

What is your definition of "critical scholarship"?

Rabbinical school I am not familiar with because I have never attended.

Unless you are Jewish I would not expect you to have attended one....these were the schools for Jewish religious instruction. Neither Jesus nor any one of the 12 were educated at these schools, which made them objects of derision for the Pharisees.

The apostle Paul (as Saul of Tarsus) was highly educated because he was raised as a Pharisee....but he was chosen for a special ministry because of his education, his Roman citizenship, and his zeal for God's worship, though misdirected at first, Jesus himself (post resurrection) provided Paul's education, as he had done with the other apostles.
John 7:14, 15; Acts 4:13; Acts 22:3.

But if you completely deny scholarship then you are simply disqualifying based on the genetic fallacy a wealth of understanding by default. Its your prerogative. But I can't understand why you would bring this argument.

Who said anything about denying scholarship? All our beliefs are based on sound scholarship....just not Christendom's brand of scholarship. I brought it up to contrast the Jews' attitude towards Jesus and his 'uneducated' disciples, because many have the same attitude towards JW's today because we don't attend their schools for religious instruction, nor do we need to point to their theological degrees as our 'credentials'.... they mean nothing to God or us......we have our own educational system as Jesus did, based on a sound knowledge of scripture. Who said we need more?

I think you should not do that because you just negated scholarship.

We base all our study on well researched scholarship, but we do not hold Christendom's scholars as having any more impact on our beliefs than Jesus relied on the Pharisees to furnish the beliefs of his disciples. He knew the system was broken and beyond repair as he said in Matthew 23:37-39.
We also know that the religious system that encompasses Christendom"s many churches is likewise broken...irreparable, filled with teachings straight out of Babylon. God's instruction to his 'people' is found in Revelation 18:4-5.

So we believe that we are living in the age of important decisions....a similar age to that of Noah's day, when we again see a surge in immorality and violence. Jesus himself likened the time of his return to the days of Noah...(Matthew 24:37-39) The people of Noah's day did not treat him with any respect nor did they heed his warning about God's impending judgment on the world of that time. So we expect a similar response from the people of today (John 15:18-21) whom we believe to be on the 'highway to oblivion'....."the broad and spacious road" to death is crowded, because the "many" have no interest in God, only in themselves and what they want. (Matthew 7:13-14) The cramped road to life has "few" traveling along its difficult path, but they see a very awesome destination at the end of it.

The one thing that people forget is that this is not our planet....we are just the tenants here, and because we have completely fouled up the Landlord's property, an eviction notice is being served and will be enacted at God's command....in the not too distant future, we think....have you ever contemplated the future according to what the Bible teaches?

What does the future look like to you?

 

[The Anointed]

What is your definition of "critical scholarship"?



Unless you are Jewish I would not expect you to have attended one....these were the schools for Jewish religious instruction. Neither Jesus nor any one of the 12 were educated at these schools, which made them objects of derision for the Pharisees.

The apostle Paul (as Saul of Tarsus) was highly educated because he was raised as a Pharisee....but he was chosen for a special ministry because of his education, his Roman citizenship, and his zeal for God's worship, though misdirected at first, Jesus himself (post resurrection) provided Paul's education, as he had done with the other apostles.
John 7:14, 15; Acts 4:13; Acts 22:3.



Who said anything about denying scholarship? All our beliefs are based on sound scholarship....just not Christendom's brand of scholarship. I brought it up to contrast the Jews' attitude towards Jesus and his 'uneducated' disciples, because many have the same attitude towards JW's today because we don't attend their schools for religious instruction, nor do we need to point to their theological degrees as our 'credentials'.... they mean nothing to God or us......we have our own educational system as Jesus did, based on a sound knowledge of scripture. Who said we need more?



We base all our study on well researched scholarship, but we do not hold Christendom's scholars as having any more impact on our beliefs than Jesus relied on the Pharisees to furnish the beliefs of his disciples. He knew the system was broken and beyond repair as he said in Matthew 23:37-39.
We also know that the religious system that encompasses Christendom"s many churches is likewise broken...irreparable, filled with teachings straight out of Babylon. God's instruction to his 'people' is found in Revelation 18:4-5.

So we believe that we are living in the age of important decisions....a similar age to that of Noah's day, when we again see a surge in immorality and violence. Jesus himself likened the time of his return to the days of Noah...(Matthew 24:37-39) The people of Noah's day did not treat him with any respect nor did they heed his warning about God's impending judgment on the world of that time. So we expect a similar response from the people of today (John 15:18-21) whom we believe to be on the 'highway to oblivion'....."the broad and spacious road" to death is crowded, because the "many" have no interest in God, only in themselves and what they want. (Matthew 7:13-14) The cramped road to life has "few" traveling along its difficult path, but they see a very awesome destination at the end of it.

The one thing that people forget is that this is not our planet....we are just the tenants here, and because we have completely fouled up the Landlord's property, an eviction notice is being served and will be enacted at God's command....in the not too distant future, we think....have you ever contemplated the future according to what the Bible teaches?

What does the future look like to you?

Deeje wrote: "All our beliefs are based on sound scholarship....just not Christendom's brand of scholarship."

But you have admitted that your scholarship, comes from the limited collection of Scriptures compiled into the canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, And you refuse to accept any scriptures that are forbidden by the mother church, of which one of her many daughter denominations such as the JW's, who were spawned from her false spirit/ teachings, before breaking away from the mother body to produce families of their own, continue to deceive the world with her spirit/teachings, such as the so-called virgin birth..

 

[firedragon]

What is your definition of "critical scholarship"?

I didnt say "critical scholarship" I said critical scholars.

e.g. Cardinal Umberto or Bruce Metzger or even someone like Richard Bauckahm. They are religious people but they are also critical scholars.

Yes, Critical scholarship refers to all of them and their work as well, but they also build on existing scholarship. Basically they embrace critical scholarship.

Unless you are Jewish I would not expect you to have attended one

Yeah. But Muslims can at a cost study seminary education as well.

Who said anything about denying scholarship? All our beliefs are based on sound scholarship

Thats great. But dont deny "Christian brand of scholarship" like that because two of the above scholars I quoted are Christian scholars. Well, its your prerogative.

We base all our study on well researched scholarship

Hmm. Thats great.

 

[firedragon]

We base all our study on well researched scholarship

Since you said, Im curious to know what JW's scholarship thinks about the documentary hypothesis of Wellhausen. Is there any material that either sides with this or refutes it?

 

[Dogknox20]

OK.....this what we would pick out of that creed.....there is not one “stumper” but a plethora of them....

This quoted from Wiki....(a sampling only)

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this:”

Straight away there is a red flag......this would be the holding of the “catholic” faith rather than the ”Christian” faith.
By comparison, there is little that the catholic faith has in common with original Christianity, in fact, it is a complete departure. Adoptions of non-Christian concepts rendered their claim to be “Christian” a complete contradiction (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)......not surprising really because this apostasy was foretold by Jesus and the apostles. (Matthew 13:36-43; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:3)

“that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.”

To worship “one God in trinity” is a concept completely absent from scripture. The Jews had no such concept. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Yahweh was one, never three, but non-Abrahamic religions already had trinities of gods. (e.g. Egypt)

Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. There is not even a hint of shared “personhood” or “essence”, since these terms are never applied to Yahweh. If each is God, you do not have three persons, but three gods.....that is polytheism in disguise..?

Deeje hello I hope all is well.... I cut the bottom of your post off to make my reply more in-depth!
You start by saying Catholic is NOT Christian you must be.. Christian to be a Christ Follower! Fact: until 1054 there only was the Catholic Church the breakaway Orthodox also believed and taught "Jesus is God" they also taught "Trinity!" Martin Luther believed and Taught "Jesus is God" in the sixteen hundreds! FACT: Christians have ALWAY taught "Jesus is God"!
You say the Catholic Church is not historic from the Apostles?
Peter was given the keys directly by Jesus in person his linage up to today is UNBROKEN, Pope Frances can trace his heritage back to Peter in an unbroke line!
FACT: Christians have always eaten the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread. The Orthodox Church in 1054 ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
FACT: Christians have always baptized to make God' children!
FACT: Christians have ALWAYS honored Mary as blessed!
Luke 1:46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.

Deeje Look at verse #48 (above) this prophesy tells you from the moment Mary spoke "From Now On" Christians will always honor her as Blessed! Only the Catholic can say "Yes we have always honored Mary our mother as Blessed"! And Yes Mary is our mother because we are in her generational family, to be part of the; from now on "ALL GENERATIONS" (verse 48 above) means Christians can trace their linage back to Jesus and His holy blessed Mother Mary! You can NOT! There was NO JWs until Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) you have NO roots in scripture back to Jesus!
Deeje You post ... 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 I point out... To be a believer you MUST believe the words of Jesus! Jesus said in the Great Commission; to Go and teach all nations! The Holy Catholic Church has Taught all nations for 2000 years fact is, until the printing press it was ONLY by TEACHING and PREACHING of the Holy Catholic Church that brought Jesus and salvation to the world! Only the Apostolic Catholic Church has roots back to Jesus! He promised in his Great Commission to be "ALWAYS WITH US" this mean he cannot be with you a NON Christian! (Point made below)
FACT: "Aries" was a Catholic he was AMONG Catholics! Arius was removed from the Catholic Church because he taught False!
Scriptures cannot be rejected! Catholics were NOT Among Arius he was AMONG Catholics!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

This is PROPHESY (above) you must reject to be against the ONLY Catholic Church Jesus formed on rock!
Historical FACT: Arius was removed from AMONG Christians because he taught "Jesus is not God!" Arius was condemned as a Heretic he brought the way of truth into dispute! (verse 2 above)
This prophesy you MUST reject as a lie you cannot twist it to say the Catholic was AMOING Arius! Fact is 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is a warning to the Catholic about the heresies of the JWs and the Watch Tower! You are ROOTLESS you cannot trace your linage back to Jesus without rejecting scriptures!

 

[Deeje]

I didnt say "critical scholarship" I said critical scholars.

e.g. Cardinal Umberto or Bruce Metzger or even someone like Richard Bauckahm. They are religious people but they are also critical scholars.

Yes, Critical scholarship refers to all of them and their work as well, but they also build on existing scholarship. Basically they embrace critical scholarship.

Splitting hairs a bit there....so how many scholars exist? Whose opinions are worthy of our consideration? Obviously those whose interpretations match our own beliefs. Most accord with the ‘mainstream’.....but we know that in this world, God’s people have always been in an unpopular minority, so taking that into consideration, we do our research carefully to come to conclusions that are often outside the mainstream view. So if we came across something outside of orthodoxy, but that is completely aligned with scripture, we did not immediately dismiss it just because it accorded with a different interpretation held by the majority. We will examine it critically and prayerfully.

We have very little in common with mainstream “Christianity” because we basically threw out everything that Christendom had introduced over its time of influence, and started again, building our beliefs on scripture and other scholarly research by linguists, historians and archeologists.

We therefore reject the trinity.....immortality of the soul, and hellfire as the basic tenets of Christendom. We reject infant baptism and accept only full immersion by those who have been taught what it means to be a Christian 24/7, not just for an hour a week as some kind of duty. We stay out of politics, but try our best to be law-abiding citizens of whatever nation we reside in. We will not join the military or take up occupations where we might be called upon to use a weapon. We are known the world over as a politically neutral, peaceful, organization. All of this is based entirely on scripture....but is in complete opposition to Christendom’s beliefs.

[Yeah. But Muslims can at a cost study seminary education as well.[/quote]

Where did Islam sneak into this conversation?

There is no cost for religious education for JW’s. We all partake of the same education as congregations, (we have no rituals or repetitive prayers, just Bible study and training for our ministry, which all participate in) and our teachers have schools that they attend at no cost. Jesus said...”you received free, give free”. So anyone who profits from their religious education is not following Jesus counsel. None of JW’s is paid to do the work that Jesus assigned. (Matthew 28:19-20) We are all volunteers.

Thats great. But dont deny "Christian brand of scholarship" like that because two of the above scholars I quoted are Christian scholars. Well, its your prerogative.

We do not deny anything that holds up to careful biblical scrutiny. We are not encumbered by Christendom’s beliefs, so we don’t need to adhere to scholarship that sides with their view. “Christian” is a label for many.....it isn’t for us. It isn’t what we do...it’s who we are.

Our view is unorthodox, but then our God is not the one worshipped by the disunited orthodox churches. He is Jehovah (YHWH, Yahweh) the one God of Jesus Christ, and we believe that we are a ”people for his name”.....one global brotherhood who all hold the same beliefs and all worship the same God in unity. (Acts 15:14; 1 Corinthians 1:10) We are taken from all nations and out of all faiths, who have obeyed God’s command to his people in Revelation 18:4-5.

That’s the difference....

 

[Deeje]

Since you said, Im curious to know what JW's scholarship thinks about the documentary hypothesis of Wellhausen. Is there any material that either sides with this or refutes it?

This German Bible critic Julius Wellhausen popularized the theory that the first six books of the Bible, including Joshua, were written in the fifth century B.C.E.—about a thousand years after the events described.

Wellhausen and his followers viewed all the history recorded in the earlier part of the Hebrew Scriptures as “not literal history, but popular traditions of the past.”

How Believable Is the “Old Testament”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

“Higher critics under the leadership of Wellhausen have attacked the Bible’s historicity from beginning to end, but America’s leading archaeologist speaks of “the total breakdown of Wellhausianism under the impact of our new knowledge of antiquity.” Archaeology has vindicated the Bible in regard to “the record of the Patriarchs, the early poetry of Israel, the contrast of Israelite faith with the Canaanite religion, the Exile and Restoration, and the Gospel of John.” Yes, “archaeological data have . . . demonstrated the substantial originality of the Books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, of Ezra and Nehemiah beyond doubt, they have confirmed the traditional picture of events as well as their order.”—The Bible After Twenty Years of Archaeology, W. F. Albright.“

Why Do You Believe the Bible? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[firedragon]

This German Bible critic Julius Wellhausen popularized the theory that the first six books of the Bible, including Joshua, were written in the fifth century B.C.E.—about a thousand years after the events described.

Wellhausen and his followers viewed all the history recorded in the earlier part of the Hebrew Scriptures as “not literal history, but popular traditions of the past.”

How Believable Is the “Old Testament”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

“Higher critics under the leadership of Wellhausen have attacked the Bible’s historicity from beginning to end, but America’s leading archaeologist speaks of “the total breakdown of Wellhausianism under the impact of our new knowledge of antiquity.” Archaeology has vindicated the Bible in regard to “the record of the Patriarchs, the early poetry of Israel, the contrast of Israelite faith with the Canaanite religion, the Exile and Restoration, and the Gospel of John.” Yes, “archaeological data have . . . demonstrated the substantial originality of the Books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, of Ezra and Nehemiah beyond doubt, they have confirmed the traditional picture of events as well as their order.”—The Bible After Twenty Years of Archaeology, W. F. Albright.“

Why Do You Believe the Bible? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The Pentateuch and its sources, is it one, four, or more?

 

[firedragon]

Where did Islam sneak into this conversation?

It has nothing to do with Islam.

I said a Muslim can study in a Christian seminary but he can't in a Jewish seminary.

Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

Splitting hairs a bit there....so how many scholars exist?

Dont know.

Whose opinions are worthy of our consideration?

You already said you dont consider any scholars in academia so it doesn't matter really.

But in your watchtower link in the attempt to debunk a form criticism you quote Christian academics when convenient. People who got academic degrees though you a little while ago said you (or we as in JW's) dont go getting academic degrees.

So now I see where its going. So thanks for the engagement.

Peace.

 

[Deeje]

The Pentateuch and its sources, is it one, four, or more?

Everything boils down to faith IMO. If you want to find fault with the Bible, you will, and God will not prevent you from talking yourself in or out of faith.....if that is your desire. Everything we do is according to our God-given free will....as it should be. Pick your scholars......

So the Bible is either God inspired or it is man imagined......we decide, based on what’s in our own heart....that is the nature of faith. What proof can any of us demand when faith requires no proof? (Hebrews 11:1)

You see, it takes a invitation from God to even begin our journey as genuine Christians......Jesus said in John 6: 44 & 65 that ‘no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father.....and since he said that “few” are on the road to life, then relatively few among earth’s population are going to receive that invitation. Those who do, know it, because their faith is rock solid and based on the truth of God’s word, not just blind belief in the teachings of a church. Only the possessors knows the difference between a strong Bible based faith and a sad unsubstantiated delusion that can be easily shot down. Truth is truth.....it can’t be altered but it can be misrepresented.

I believe that God chooses us as much as we choose him.

 

[Deeje]

You already said you dont consider any scholars in academia so it doesn't matter really.

No, I did not say that we reject all scholars....you are misinterpreting my statements. I said that we do not seek religious credentials from theological colleges because we do not see them as relevant to our faith. They do not teach the truth as we understand it. There are multitudes of scholars, so there is a wide variety a opinions to explore. We do not accept the opinion of those who promote Christendom’s teachings. So we do not reject the opinions of all scholars.....please don’t misrepresent what I say.

But in your watchtower link in the attempt to debunk a form criticism you quote Christian academics when convenient. People who got academic degrees though you a little while ago said you (or we as in JW's) dont go getting academic degrees.

We ourselves do not seek academic credentials in order to carry out our works and teachings of faith...we follow the first century model. Keeping our faith in line with scripture and leaning on the work of scholars who are not afraid to break ranks with Christendom’s adopted ideas.

So now I see where its going. So thanks for the engagement.

Stepped on a landline, did I? Where was I going?

Peace.

Always

 

[firedragon]

No, I did not say that we reject all scholars....you are misinterpreting my statements. I said that we do not seek religious credentials from theological colleges because we do not see them as relevant to our faith.

Again, does one has to explain the difference between a seminary and university?

Theological college is seminary, but you can study many many other fields in the university.

We ourselves do not seek academic credentials in order to carry out our works and teachings of faith...

I didnt speak of anyone who sought credentials in order to teaching of "faith".

This is not relevant to what I said.

 

[firedragon]

Everything boils down to faith IMO. If you want to find fault with the Bible, you will, and God will not prevent you from talking yourself in or out of faith.....if that is your desire. Everything we do is according to our God-given free will....as it should be. Pick your scholars......

So the Bible is either God inspired or it is man imagined......we decide, based on what’s in our own heart....that is the nature of faith. What proof can any of us demand when faith requires no proof? (Hebrews 11:1)

You see, it takes a invitation from God to even begin our journey as genuine Christians......Jesus said in John 6: 44 & 65 that ‘no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father.....and since he said that “few” are on the road to life, then relatively few among earth’s population are going to receive that invitation. Those who do, know it, because their faith is rock solid and based on the truth of God’s word, not just blind belief in the teachings of a church. Only the possessors knows the difference between a strong Bible based faith and a sad unsubstantiated delusion that can be easily shot down. Truth is truth.....it can’t be altered but it can be misrepresented.

I believe that God chooses us as much as we choose him.

Thats a new thread on the subject. I know it just looked like a comment.

The Pentateuch and its sources, is it one, four, or more?

 

[firedragon]

We do not accept the opinion of those who promote Christendom’s teachings. So we do not reject the opinions of all scholars.....please don’t misrepresent what I say.

But see, for the second time I say this, you quoted an article that quotes only one scholar in it on the watchtower website in debunking this source criticism of Wellhausen. That only quotes Dr. Albright. He is a Christian scholar "who promotes Christendom's teachings". But you embraced him when expedient.

But you rejected scholarship of people who dont promote Christianity, also you rejected scholars who are atheists who have no intention of promoting christianity, you also rejected Christian scholars who do promote christianity. Basically you rejected all scholars but embraced one when commodious.

Why is that?

 

[firedragon]

Keeping our faith in line with scripture and leaning on the work of scholars who are not afraid to break ranks with Christendom’s adopted ideas.

I ask since you keep at this trivial point about scholars but keep making some allusions which are completely irrelevant to me. Maybe you are used to telling this to a general audience or to Christians in general about theologians.

Can you please quote the scholar that I quoted for whatever reason who does not "break ranks with Christendom's adopted ideas"?