The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[Dogknox20]

How many thrones are found at Revelation 3:21 _________
Hebrews 1:6 in the Greek has the word for obeisance which is a reverential bowing down and Not necessarily worship.
The same 'Greek' word is used at Matthew 14:33 for obeisance.
Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24..

URAVIP2ME we both know that ONLY God can be worshiped.... Jesus tells Satan ONLY God is to be worshiped!!! Yet Thomas proclaims TO JESUS; Jesus is his God! LOOK at all the translations.... below..
KJ21
And Thomas answered and said unto Him, “My Lord and my God!”
ASV
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
AMP
Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”
AMPC
Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
BRG
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
CSB
Thomas responded to him, “My Lord and my God!”
CEB
Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”
CJB
T’oma answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
CEV
Thomas replied, “You are my Lord and my God!”
DARBY
Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
DLNT
Thomas responded and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
DRA
Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.
etc

URAVIP2ME LOOK how Jesus replies to Thomas!!!
KJ21
Jesus said unto him, “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.”
ASV
Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
etc

URAVIP2ME Does Jesus stop Thomas... NO! If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?

 

[Dogknox20]

How many thrones are found at Revelation 3:21 _________
Hebrews 1:6 in the Greek has the word for obeisance which is a reverential bowing down and Not necessarily worship.
The same 'Greek' word is used at Matthew 14:33 for obeisance.
Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24.

URAVIP2ME They WORSHIP Jesus in Matthew 28:17
KJ21
And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
ASV
And when they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.
AMP
And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He].
AMPC
And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
BRG
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
CSB
When they saw him, they worshiped, but some doubted.
CEB
When they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted.

Look at the next verse... Matthew 28:18
URAVIP2ME They WORSHIP Jesus! Does Jesus stop them??? NO! If Jesus really wasn't God Jesus would be committing a grave sin for NOT correcting their error!
Jesus KNOWS Worship is ONLY FOR GOD!! Jesus told Satan Worship only God; Jesus MUST be God because he allows the worship of himself! Jesus carries it further he tells them: He has all the Power of God!
KJ21
And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, “All power is given unto Me in Heaven and on earth.
ASV
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
AMP
Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
AMPC
Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
BRG
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
CSB
Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

 

[Dogknox20]

How many thrones are found at Revelation 3:21 _________
Hebrews 1:6 in the Greek has the word for obeisance which is a reverential bowing down and Not necessarily worship.
The same 'Greek' word is used at Matthew 14:33 for obeisance.
Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24.
Yes Jesus is the 'Word" meaning God's spokesman. Jesus was speaking for his Father.
Any thoughts about Jesus' Father being greater than all ( everyone ) according to John 10:29 ____________
Who is greater according to Jesus at John 14:28 __________
Jesus always told the truth and at John 10:36 he answers that he is the Son of God.
So, it is true what John wrote at John 6:46 that No man as has seen the Father.
This is in harmony with what John wrote at John 1:18 that No man has seen God...... people saw Jesus.
At 1 John 4:12 John restates what he wrote in his gospel account.
This is in harmony with Exodus 33:20.

Psalms 90:2 informs us that God is Un-created being from everlasting.
So, only God was ' before' the beginning.
Whereas Jesus as "IN" the beginning but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.
This is why John could write at Revelation 3:14 that pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.
Heavenly Jesus did Not appear in front of himself according to Hebrews 9:24.

URAVIP2ME Jesus and the Father are ONE! One God!
John 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God it was not until Arius came alone was removed from among the Christians as a HERATIC that the issue was made dogmatic doctrine!

 

[firedragon]

In the Athanasian creed (which I believe is essentially the same as the Nicene creed), God is very much one personage who manifests as three separate entities, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It's difficult to compare that to anything, as it's unique and mysterious. In the Latter-day Saint view, it is not one God personage with three manifestations. It is three completely separate personages, independent beings and wills, who work together as "One" "Godhead". You could perhaps compare it to a husband and wife who are so in tune with each other, so united in purpose, that they are considered "one". But, in that marriage the two are still very much separate individuals. But this comparison is inadequate as unlike mortals, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, each having a divine nature and perfection achieve a level of total harmony and unity unparalled anywhere else.

Oh I got it. You dont believe they are one essence but wholly three different persons in unity.

But you do believe Jesus is the Son of God I presume? Im just asking to clarify.

 

[Terry Sampson]

How does that defer from the athanasian creed?

Yo', Friend:
I'm surprised that one of the "biggest differences" between Mormon polytheistic monotheism and all of the rest of Christianity has escaped your notice. Granted, there are vast differences between the Trinitarian and Non-trinitarians, as well as within each category, ... enough to keep a curious person busy for a thousand lifetimes, and there's absolutely no reason that anyone, including me, should assume that someone should be aware of what I happen to think are the most intriguing differences. Forgive me; I just assumed that, given your curiosity and knowledge, you would have come across the biggest difference (IMO) between Mormons and all other Christians before now.

To press home the difference between Mormon "monotheism" and the "monotheism" of other Christian sects, allow me to share a bit of Mormon artwork by Minerva Teichert:

"First Vision in the Sacred Grove -Joseph Kneeling - by Minerva Teichert

The First Vision captures the moment when the Prophet Joseph Smith saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above him. As Joseph Smith knelt on the ground Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appear to him."

The third person, i.e. the Holy Spirit, is the only person in Mormon trinity who does not show up (understandably) in Mormon artwork as often as Father God and Jesus. And Father God appears far less often in their artwork than Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

Yo', Friend:
I'm surprised that one of the "biggest differences" between Mormon polytheistic monotheism and all of the rest of Christianity has escaped your notice. Granted, there are vast differences between the Trinitarian and Non-trinitarians, as well as within each category, ... enough to keep a curious person busy for a thousand lifetimes, and there's absolutely no reason that anyone, including me, should assume that someone should be aware of what I happen to think are the most intriguing differences. Forgive me; I just assumed that, given your curiosity and knowledge, you would have come across the biggest difference (IMO) between Mormons and all other Christians before now.

To press home the difference between Mormon "monotheism" and the "monotheism" of other Christian sects, allow me to share a bit of Mormon artwork by Minerva Teichert:

View attachment 41593

"First Vision in the Sacred Grove -Joseph Kneeling - by Minerva Teichert

The First Vision captures the moment when the Prophet Joseph Smith saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above him. As Joseph Smith knelt on the ground Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appear to him."

The third person, i.e. the Holy Spirit, is the only person in Mormon trinity who does not show up (understandably) in Mormon artwork as often as Father God and Jesus. And Father God appears far less often in their artwork than Jesus.

He was a Latter Day Saints adherent my friend.

Yet I must say that I am not an expert in mormonism. So the information is very welcome. What I understand is that Mormon God is a creation himself. It was an "exaltation theology", and if your piety is so great you also can be elevated to the status of God with your spouse and become the Heavenly Father and mother of your own domain. The thing is, to understand a religion it is not enough to read their scripture because religions are always built on doctrine. The thing is I dont come across too many Mormons in this forum enough to open a new thread to understand better.

I have personal friends though.

 

[Terry Sampson]

He was a Latter Day Saints adherent my friend.

The first of many.

The thing is, to understand a religion it is not enough to read their scripture because religions are always built on doctrine.

Aye, invariably. Previously, I stereotyped JW religion as a script: get the broad strokes down, and then focus on the details which remain the same. "Mastery", of sorts, is possible.

With LDS religion, get the broad constants down, and begin to explore the details, but never take anything for granted: the script can change at anytime.

• E.g. Once, there was what I thought was a widely-held belief, summed up in saying by a prominent Mormon: As man is, God once was; as God is, man will become. If true, one might safely (theoretically) assume that Father God had spiritual, as well as biological, parents who, themselves each had spiritual, as well as biological, parents, leading to a necessary belief that the universe must be infinite and eternal in order to encompass a plethora of past and future Parent Gods. Now-a-days, the LDS discourage fixation on theoretical antecedents, such as "as man is, God once was", preferring to focus on "Eternal Progression" in the future, which still requires (IMO) an infinite and eternal universe (in the future)
• Once, multiple wives were encouraged; now, not.
• Once, being a Black was "the mark of Cain" and a limiting factor in advancement in religious authority; now, theoretically not.

 

[Dogknox20]

How many thrones are found at Revelation 3:21 _________
Hebrews 1:6 in the Greek has the word for obeisance which is a reverential bowing down and Not necessarily worship.
The same 'Greek' word is used at Matthew 14:33 for obeisance.
Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24.
Yes Jesus is the 'Word" meaning God's spokesman. Jesus was speaking for his Father.
Any thoughts about Jesus' Father being greater than all ( everyone ) according to John 10:29 ____________
Who is greater according to Jesus at John 14:28 __________
Jesus always told the truth and at John 10:36 he answers that he is the Son of God.
So, it is true what John wrote at John 6:46 that No man as has seen the Father.
This is in harmony with what John wrote at John 1:18 that No man has seen God...... people saw Jesus.
At 1 John 4:12 John restates what he wrote in his gospel account.
This is in harmony with Exodus 33:20.

Psalms 90:2 informs us that God is Un-created being from everlasting.
So, only God was ' before' the beginning.
Whereas Jesus as "IN" the beginning but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.
This is why John could write at Revelation 3:14 that pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.
Heavenly Jesus did Not appear in front of himself according to Hebrews 9:24.

URAVIP2ME "God with us" in the Old Testament PROPHESY! "God with us" the Old Testament Prophesy fulfilled
Matthew 1:23! Jesus is GOD! There is only one God!
ISAIAH 7:14 Old Testament Prophesy!
KJ21
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
ASV
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
AMP
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Listen carefully, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).
AMPC
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us].
BRG
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
CSB
Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign: See, the virgin will conceive, have a son, and name him Immanuel.
CEB
Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel.
CJB
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman* will become pregnant, bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El [God is with us].
Matthew 1:23 .. "God with us"! Prophesy fulfilled!
KJ21
“Behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel” (which being interpreted is, “God with us”).
ASV
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
AMP
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel”—which, when translated, means, “God with us.”
AMPC
Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel—which, when translated, means, God with us.
BRG
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
CSB
See, the virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel, which is translated “God is with us.”
CEB
Look! A virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, And they will call him, Emmanuel. (Emmanuel means “God with us.”)
CJB
“The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him ‘Immanu El.” (The name means, “God is with us.”)
CEV
“A virgin will have a baby boy, and he will be called Immanuel,” which means “God is with us.”

DEUTERONOMY 4:35 .....There is only one God!
KJ21
Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the Lord He is God: there is none else besides Him.
ASV
Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God; there is none else besides him.
AMP
It was shown to you so that you might have [personal] knowledge and comprehend that the Lord is God; there is no other besides Him.
AMPC
To you it was shown, that you might realize and have personal knowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides Him.
BRG
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.
CSB
You were shown these things so that you would know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.

 

[Dogknox20]

The first of many.


Aye, invariably. Previously, I stereotyped JW religion as a script: get the broad strokes down, and then focus on the details which remain the same. "Mastery", of sorts, is possible.

With LDS religion, get the broad constants down, and begin to explore the details, but never take anything for granted: the script can change at anytime.

• E.g. Once, there was what I thought was a widely-held belief, summed up in saying by a prominent Mormon: As man is, God once was; as God is, man will become. If true, one might safely (theoretically) assume that Father God had spiritual, as well as biological, parents who, themselves each had spiritual, as well as biological, parents, leading to a necessary belief that the universe must be infinite and eternal in order to encompass a plethora of past and future Parent Gods. Now-a-days, the LDS discourage fixation on theoretical antecedents, such as "as man is, God once was", preferring to focus on "Eternal Progression" in the future, which still requires (IMO) an infinite and eternal universe (in the future)
• Once, multiple wives were encouraged; now, not.
• Once, being a Black was "the mark of Cain" and a limiting factor in advancement in religious authority; now, theoretically not.

Terry Sampson I point out... The Government was going to take away the Tax exempt status from the Mormon church because they denied Black Clergy that very week they had a revelation from God that black men could be clergy!

 

[oldbadger]

URAVIP2ME LOOK how Jesus replies to Thomas!!!
KJ21
Jesus said unto him, “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.”
ASV
Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
etc

URAVIP2ME Does Jesus stop Thomas... NO! If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?

Jesus did!
He said, 'Seeing is believing, but I especially bless those who just accept....' what a backhander!

And because of John's inclusion of this account, not mentioned in the synoptics, priests would be able to scold any who questioned them,,,,, or worse!
Quite clever.........

 

[Dogknox20]

Jesus did!
He said, 'Seeing is believing, but I especially bless those who just accept....' what a backhander!

And because of John's inclusion of this account, not mentioned in the synoptics, priests would be able to scold any who questioned them,,,,, or worse!
Quite clever.........

oldbadger Good to meet you.... I ask: Can you be a little more specific? Can you spell out for me the meaning to your post!? I am not sure as to what you said/mean to say... ?
What about these words of Jesus... "Whoever accepts you accepts me, whoever rejects you rejects me & the Father who sent me"! Clearly those who accept the authority of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church accept Jesus! The Protestant; all IN Protest reject Jesus and thus; The Father!
God Bless

 

[oldbadger]

oldbadger Good to meet you....

Hello... :

I ask: Can you be a little more specific? Can you spell out for me the meaning to your post!? I am not sure as to what you said/mean to say... ?

Let me try:-
Apostle John tells us again and again that believers (in Jesus) are good, but that those who question or need proof are 'Not Good'!
Only 'Believers' get to Heaven, all else perish in Hell for eternity. Can you imagine how the priesthood, clergy and church elders used these verses against any who did not automatically accept what they said or wanted? These verses could be used to subdue any who questioned them.

Let me show you a couple of examples...... there a a few, you know. In the last verse shown the name of Thomas is smeared for ever....... Doubting Thomas! Can you see that to question any part of the bible could be called 'Bad!'?? :-

John {3:18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he
that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John {10:27} My sheep hear
my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {10:28}
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

John {16:27} For the Father himself
loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed
that I came out from God.

John {20:29} Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,
because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are]
they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

What about these words of Jesus... "Whoever accepts you accepts me, whoever rejects you rejects me & the Father who sent me"! Clearly those who accept the authority of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church accept Jesus! The Protestant; all IN Protest reject Jesus and thus; The Father!

I'm sorry, Dogknox20, but the above (exact) passage is not written anywhere in the New Testament. But if I am wrong please quote Book, chapter and verse, and please show how Jesus was referring to your particular church.

God Bless

All the best to you ........

 

[Scott C.]

Oh I got it. You dont believe they are one essence but wholly three different persons in unity.

But you do believe Jesus is the Son of God I presume? Im just asking to clarify.

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

I get it. Peace.

 

[Dogknox20]

Hello... :


Let me try:-
Apostle John tells us again and again that believers (in Jesus) are good, but that those who question or need proof are 'Not Good'!
Only 'Believers' get to Heaven, all else perish in Hell for eternity. Can you imagine how the priesthood, clergy and church elders used these verses against any who did not automatically accept what they said or wanted? These verses could be used to subdue any who questioned them.

Let me show you a couple of examples...... there a a few, you know. In the last verse shown the name of Thomas is smeared for ever....... Doubting Thomas! Can you see that to question any part of the bible could be called 'Bad!'?? :-

John {3:18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he
that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John {10:27} My sheep hear
my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {10:28}
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

John {16:27} For the Father himself
loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed
that I came out from God.

John {20:29} Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,
because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are]
they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.


I'm sorry, Dogknox20, but the above (exact) passage is not written anywhere in the New Testament. But if I am wrong please quote Book, chapter and verse, and please show how Jesus was referring to your particular church.
All the best to you ........

oldbadger thank you for your reply: First you are mixed up... "that believers (in Jesus) are good, but that those who question or need proof are 'Not Good'!
Scriptures say "Those who do right are good!" Believing Jesus is believing his words! Those who refuse to do good trusting only in faith (Faith Alone) are not going to enter heaven they are children of Satan!
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

oldbadger you quote scriptures..... (above) I reply First You must take them scriptures in context to the whole book! Believing in Jesus MUST include believing his words....
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Those who have placed their salvation in the man made tradition of saved by Faith ALONE must reject the words of Jesus to trust the words of Martin Luther!


Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[Dogknox20]

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Good to meet you... Something to think about.... Scriptures tell us "God is love" because God is perfect his love must also be perfect no second best for God!
To love perfectly you CANNOT love yourself! If there is a God that loves perfectly he need another a someone to love! Loving only yourself is called "Selfish"! If God was selfish he would not be perfect he could not be God!
God always was so this other this someone must have to existed always... IF....
Scott C If God existed even a millisecond by himself without the "Other" he would not be perfect love!

 

[SomeRandom]

The Smileys? See the smiley face in the task bar...... they are the emojis.

I like these guys too....
Happy smilies | Planet Smilies . com

Hey Deej! Have you heard of this app called Tenor?
It’s like this web data base for like all the various gifs found online! I downloaded it and thought of you, since it reminded me of your emojis, but on steroids

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus agrees with you according to how Jesus speaks the truth as recorded at John 10:36.
This is what I also find at John 20:17 that resurrected Jesus would ascend to his Father and His God.....
So, the later words of doubting Thomas in verse 28 shows Thomas was Not thinking of Jesus as LORD God ( Tetragrammaton ).
John concludes chapter 20 with what John believes: that Jesus is Son.....

 

[Deeje]

Hey Deej! Have you heard of this app called Tenor?
It’s like this web data base for like all the various gifs found online! I downloaded it and thought of you, since it reminded me of your emojis, but on steroids

I only like the main smilies here on RF, the others are very low rez and quite disappointing. I used to use a site that closed down and loved their smilies. but "planet smilies" has some of them.

I like to keep them small though because I don't want them to dominate the post unless it is appropriate.....thanks for the tip though.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............... If God existed even a millisecond by himself without the "Other" he would not be perfect love!

Yes, according to Psalms 90:2 (Douay 89:2) God is from everlasting..... So, yes, God existed even a millisecond by Himself.
So, only God was ' before ' the beginning of creation. - Revelation 3:14 B.
Thus, pre-human heavenly Jesus was " IN " the beginning of creation but Not ' before' as his God and Creator was ' before ' the beginning - Revelation 4:11.