The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[Deeje]

Edgar Goodspeeds translation.

OK, so now we are getting somewhere....
"Goodspeed(i) 1 In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

Is this correct? How does that conflict with "In the beginning was the Word"? Its saying the same thing is it not?

Our translation agrees with this. What is translated as "divine" by Goodspeed is "theos" which is translated "God" in pro-trinitarian translations.....but a "god" to the Greeks was not Jehovah. Their gods all had names and the Jews had stopped using God's name, so the only way to differentiate him was to use the definite article. We use the same idiom in English do we not? The Word was "with God" but he was not God.

I did not focus on the beginning or the end but the whole verse and I quoted the whole verse. I am not propagating trinitarianism, and of course everything other than God had a beginning. So its not relevant to me.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

"of course everything other than God had a beginning"...... we agree, so I don't understand your argument? Please help me.....what I am missing here....?

 

[firedragon]

Is this correct? How does that conflict with "In the beginning was the Word"?

Who said it conflicts with "in the beginning was the word"?

Our translation agrees with this. What is translated as "divine" by Goodspeed is "theos" which is translated "God" in pro-trinitarian translations.....but a "god" to the Greeks was not Jehovah. Their gods all had names and the Jews had stopped using God's name, so the only way to differentiate him was to use the definite article. We use the same idiom in English do we not? The Word was "with God" but he was not God.

Of course. The difference is that you have translated "Theos" as a "small god" or "a god" not "God". Thats linguistically not wrong. Theos is without an article. Its like the difference between "The Divine" and "Divine". If you translate word for word, Theos en ho logos = Divine is the word. So your explanation of this verse was full of errors.

Dont make this a doctrinal issue. This is just a discussion on your rendition of a particular verse.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

"of course everything other than God had a beginning"...... we agree, so I don't understand your argument? Please help me.....what I am missing here....?

Thats because you are expecting the same old argument. Well, you won't get that from me.

I think my position was made clear above. Hope you can understand. I like your emoji by the way, I dont know how you guys do it.

Peace.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes Adrian, as one who was once part of Christendom, it isn't until you actually study the Bible for yourself that you see how very far Christendom has strayed from the teachings of Christ and his apostles. I never knew this until the Bible painted a clear picture of why the churches of Christendom are all virtually the same as all other false worship, as far as God is concerned.

As you realise I was simply answering the OP question based on my understanding of both Christianity and the JWs. I grew up Christian, identified as Christian and continue to associate with many Christians in my day to day life.

There are beliefs that Christians and Baha’is share. Love people, be compassionate, be fair, humble, courteous and truthful. They are of course shared by peoples of goodwill no matter what background.

In regards beliefs about Christ, we believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, born to the Virgin Mary, the Son of God, who was crucified and sacrificed Himself for all mankind. Both the New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are Divinely Inspired.

The JWs are just another sect of Christianity. As stated the JWs await a transformative eschatological event. The Baha’is are not waiting for the Return of Christ. We believe He’s already come.

So I don’t really think in terms of whether I’m part of Christendom or I’m not @Deeje .

"Babylon" is featured quite a bit throughout the Bible as a "type", representative of things to come.....and not in a good way. The Revelation to John tells of a "greater Babylon" which he describes as a "harlot" who commits fornication with the Kings of the earth". She is represented in this time of the end, as one entity....but with many subscribing to her God-dishonoring beliefs....the majority of mankind in fact.

There are two parallel processes happening as we speak. There is the disintegration of the old world order and the building of the new order. In your language there is Babylon and the establishment of Gods Kingdom on earth. So when we have corrupted politicians acting in a short sighted manner with a narrow personal agenda, that is Babylon. When we have altruistic leaders who sacrifice themselves for the greater good that is the establishment of Gods Kingdom whether peoples are aware of it or not.

God's command is to: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong". (Revelation 18:4-8)

"And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again". (Revelation 18:21)

Reading on from verse 8, the death of the "harlot" is mourned by two of the great controlling elements in the world.....politics and commerce....but she herself is the third.....false religion. All those who teach doctrines that originated in ancient Babylon are part of "Babylon the great." These include the worship of multiplicities of gods, belief in immortal souls that live on after death, hellfire for the wicked, adoration of images, the veneration of saints and mother goddesses, participation in bloodshed.....and a host of other beliefs and practices that can be traced back to Babylon....Christendom adopted all of those, but they are not from the Bible.

Christianity contributes to a great deal of Charity and that is a good thing. I’m more interested in how people contribute positively towards a better world but having our understanding resting on a firm foundation is very important too.

This is the devil's world empire through which he controls everything, according to our understanding of the scriptures. But it says that the destruction of the harlot is God's doing and that he uses the political elements to bring her down. They are even puzzled as to why they did this, since they benefited from their liaisons with her. But the destruction of "Babylon the great" is just the start...God is not finished yet. The whole of satan's world will be brought down through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen. (Matthew 24:21)That is how we see the future.

We are living in unprecedented times....you think it is bad now....wait and see what's coming (Matthew 24:22)....this is why we preach....its a warning to all who will listen. (Matthew 24:14)

True that we are living in unprecedented times and that is why the Baha’is also have an urgent need to share their message too.

Our message is not forced, but it must be delivered, according to what we believe.

Of course. All the best with that.

 

[firedragon]

In regards beliefs about Christ, we believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, born to the Virgin Mary, the Son of God, who was crucified and sacrificed Himself for all mankind. Both the New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are Divinely Inspired.

You have a cognitive dissonance. Sorry but you guys keep bringing the Bahai faith to every single post making it absolutely impossible to have any conversation about a cloven topic so you are asking for response.

One day you claim you believe the Hebrew Scriptures and NT are divinely inspired, but you dont follow them all you nitpick what you like and I dont know what you do with the rest. When asked a question about the NT you claim is divinely inspired you will not answer but just leave it yet resort to preaching "we and christians both preach love and harmony etc etc" which are directly proselitysmo religioso.

Sorry to say this but this is absolutely absurd.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes.

Duly Ordained: 25 years ago I was running a course in London and the trainees were intoiducing themselves. One trainee told us that he was an 'evangelist for Christ' and a 'duly ordained priest'. The poor guy was surrounded by folks who had spent years in various kinds of investigation and the questions started. He eventually explained that he was 'Ordained by God!' and that no Church or person could bestow such a 'commission' (he used that word).
Ever since that day I have asked duly ordained priests about their ordination and enjoy the answers very much.

I'd prefer to keep that particular information anonymous.

Matthew {5:14} Ye are the light of the world. A city that
is set on an hill cannot be hid. {5:15} Neither do men light a
candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it
giveth light unto all that are in the house. {5:16} Let your
light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The UMC, the UCC, the Christian Church (DOC), the ECUSA, the Presbyterian USA, the ELCA Lutherans, among others.

Ah ha! Apart from a fair bit of dis-unity within in recent years (especially the UMC?) I get it.......
Yes. And so your view of God, Religion and the bible appears to be a revionist view with a progressive approach so that the above can adapt which is fine by me but opposed to the Watchtowers, yes?
Now I get it.......
Tell me.....
Has a JW on RF ever launched a thread against any of your churches?
Has a JW on RF ever posted attacks upon any of your churches?
...... 'Cos you have to them.....

......just sayin'.

 

[Deeje]

I like your emoji by the way, I dont know how you guys do it.

The Smileys? See the smiley face in the task bar...... they are the emojis.

I like these guys too....
Happy smilies | Planet Smilies . com

 

[firedragon]

The Smileys? See the smiley face in the task bar...... they are the emojis.

I like these guys too....
Happy smilies | Planet Smilies . com

Alright. If you see some smileys in a post of mine later, dont blame me for plagiarism.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have a cognitive dissonance. Sorry but you guys keep bringing the Bahai faith to every single post making it absolutely impossible to have any conversation about a cloven topic so you are asking for response.

One day you claim you believe the Hebrew Scriptures and NT are divinely inspired, but you dont follow them all you nitpick what you like and I dont know what you do with the rest. When asked a question about the NT you claim is divinely inspired you will not answer but just leave it yet resort to preaching "we and christians both preach love and harmony etc etc" which are directly proselitysmo religioso.

Sorry to say this but this is absolutely absurd.

I have been talking with Deeje on this forum for over 3 years. The only cognitive dissonance is in your perspective.

 

[firedragon]

I have been talking with Deeje on this forum for over 3 years. The only cognitive dissonance is in your perspective.

How in the world "I have been talking for 3 years" has anything to do with anything? And how is that cognitive dissonance?

Another absolutely irrelevant statement. Surprising mate. Surprising.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh okay. I understand what you said now.

I have seen Buddhist societies be crazily controlling in this matter. So are Muslim societies. So are Hindu societies. So are Christian societies. Even protestant societies. The issue that I see in this kind of topic is that our knowledge is very anecdotal. The world is such a vast place.

Yet, my experience aligns with the words of the NT--the devout who trust Jesus do not do this.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What restrictions were there on marriages among the Israelites?,,,,that you consider "overly controlled"? Who controlled it? And why?



Arranged marriages??? nope.

Pressure marriages??? nope.

"Marry only JW's? Yep....as this is a command from scripture....

"A wife is bound as long as her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep in death, she is free to be married to whomever she wants, only in the Lord."

The many things that JW's get accused of are often figments of people's imaginations. Just ask us and we will tell you the truth about ourselves as we have nothing to hide.

Those who join our ranks are never forced into marriages, as the scripture says...."she is free to be married to whomever she wants, only in the Lord".

If you are going to post stuff about us at least make it accurate.

You are correct, it slipped my mind--JWs control FOOD as in the same 1 Tim passage.

 

[BilliardsBall]

JW's have arranged marriages and pressure marriages? What?!

Also, one is very discouraged from marrying a non-JW but that person isn't disfellowshipped or punished because of it if they do marry them.

I would say the most intrusive element of their involvement in a marriage is what is and what isn't allowed in the bedroom..... obviously nobody will know unless one half of the couple gets a guilt trip and squeals to the elders, but the guilt is laid on thick.

You are correct, it slipped my mind--JWs control FOOD as in the same 1 Tim passage.

 

[firedragon]

Yet, my experience aligns with the words of the NT--the devout who trust Jesus do not do this.

That’s anecdotal mate. But that’s fine with me.

 

[sojourner]

Ever since that day I have asked duly ordained priests about their ordination and enjoy the answers very much.

I have the sheepskin on my office wall.

Matthew {5:14}

No, this is a misuse of the text. My light does shine. But Jesus never said that we had to broadcast the light bulb manufacturer, merchant, or number of lumens. Jesus did say that we shouldn't cast our pearls before swine. No, I'm afraid my primary responsibility is to my church to safeguard it, not to members and lurkers at RF who are curious and/or opportunistic.

And so your view of God, Religion and the bible appears to be a revionist view with a progressive approach

Revisionist? No. Progressive? Yes, as Jesus was progressive.

Has a JW on RF ever posted attacks upon any of your churches?

Yes. All. The. Time.

 

[Scott C.]

How does that defer from the athanasian creed?

In the Athanasian creed (which I believe is essentially the same as the Nicene creed), God is very much one personage who manifests as three separate entities, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It's difficult to compare that to anything, as it's unique and mysterious. In the Latter-day Saint view, it is not one God personage with three manifestations. It is three completely separate personages, independent beings and wills, who work together as "One" "Godhead". You could perhaps compare it to a husband and wife who are so in tune with each other, so united in purpose, that they are considered "one". But, in that marriage the two are still very much separate individuals. But this comparison is inadequate as unlike mortals, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, each having a divine nature and perfection achieve a level of total harmony and unity unparalled anywhere else.

 

[oldbadger]

I have the sheepskin on my office wall.

Ah..... sounds strange, secretive. Exclusive?
Don't sound like Christianity as I ever knew about.

No, this is a misuse of the text. My light does shine. But Jesus never said that we had to broadcast the light bulb manufacturer, merchant, or number of lumens. Jesus did say that we shouldn't cast our pearls before swine. No, I'm afraid my primary responsibility is to my church to safeguard it, not to members and lurkers at RF who are curious and/or opportunistic.

I don't think so.
And your church? You surely mean 'your churches'? You gave us a whole list.
So you think that you have pearls more worthy than some RF .......'swine' ?? Have I got that right? Oh dear.

I tell you something....... JWs will cast their value before any person. They can speak for themselves.

You should keep your sheepskin hidden well.

Revisionist? No. Progressive? Yes, as Jesus was progressive.

Wot !!!? You're supposed to know about Jesus, whose main objective was to stop the Temple corruption, greed, hypocrisy and money-go-round. He wanted 'Mercy and not Sacrifice'. Which part of Revision don't you understand?

Progressive Christians have had to Revise, Review, Re-interpret....... how else could they have Female Bishops, Gay clergy, Gay Marriages, a more universal approach to their faith? I for one have the greatest respect for the revisionist and progressive churches but that doesn't mean that I want to chuck muck at JWs, I am just a Deist who has come to have a deep respect for their honesty and decency.

Yes. All. The. Time.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[sojourner]

Ah..... sounds strange, secretive. Exclusive?
Don't sound like Christianity as I ever knew about.


I don't think so.
And your church? You surely mean 'your churches'? You gave us a whole list.
So you think that you have pearls more worthy than some RF .......'swine' ?? Have I got that right? Oh dear.

I tell you something....... JWs will cast their value before any person. They can speak for themselves.

You should keep your sheepskin hidden well.


Wot !!!? You're supposed to know about Jesus, whose main objective was to stop the Temple corruption, greed, hypocrisy and money-go-round. He wanted 'Mercy and not Sacrifice'. Which part of Revision don't you understand?

Progressive Christians have had to Revise, Review, Re-interpret....... how else could they have Female Bishops, Gay clergy, Gay Marriages, a more universal approach to their faith? I for one have the greatest respect for the revisionist and progressive churches but that doesn't mean that I want to chuck muck at JWs, I am just a Deist who has come to have a deep respect for their honesty and decency.



I won't hold my breath.

Your intimations have become suspect. It's obvious that you're trolling. We're done.

 

[oldbadger]

Your intimations have become suspect. It's obvious that you're trolling. We're done.

You don't know the difference between supporting an attacked religious group and trolling.
See ya later..........

 

[Deeje]

You are correct, it slipped my mind--JWs control FOOD as in the same 1 Tim passage.

Please tell us about these FOOD CONTROL rules.....fascinating how I am learning about all these rules supposedly enforced in my own religion from someone who never bothered to check if they were true.....why was I never told?

 

[Dogknox20]

How many thrones are found at Revelation 3:21 _________
Hebrews 1:6 in the Greek has the word for obeisance which is a reverential bowing down and Not necessarily worship.
The same 'Greek' word is used at Matthew 14:33 for obeisance.
Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24..

URAVIP2ME The word "Worship" is translated by scripture Scholars the same in both Matthew 14:33 & Matthew 4:10 all of them the are the same!!!! As mentioned before the NWT is corrupted with many uninspired changes!
Matthew 14:33
KJ21
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “In truth Thou art the Son of God.”
ASV
And they that were in the boat worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
AMP
Then those in the boat worshiped Him [with awe-inspired reverence], saying, “Truly You are the Son of God!”
AMPC
And those in the boat knelt and worshiped Him, saying, Truly You are the Son of God!
BRG
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
CSB
Then those in the boat worshiped him and said, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
CEB
Then those in the boat worshipped Jesus and said, “You must be God’s Son!”
CEV
The men in the boat worshiped Jesus and said, “You really are the Son of God!”
DLNT
And the ones in the boat gave-worship to Him, saying, “Truly You are God’s Son”.
ERV
Then the followers in the boat worshiped Jesus and said, “You really are the Son of God.”
EHV
Those who were in the boat worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!”
Matthew 4:10
KJ21
Then said Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan! For it is written: ‘Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’”
ASV
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
AMP
Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written and forever remains written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”
AMPC
Then Jesus said to him, Begone, Satan! For it has been written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.
BRG
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
CSB
Then Jesus told him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”
CEB
Jesus responded, “Go away, Satan, because it’s written, You will worship the Lord your God and serve only him.”
CJB
“Away with you, Satan!” Yeshua told him, “For the Tanakh says, ‘Worship Adonai your God, and serve only him.’”
CEV
Jesus answered, “Go away Satan! The Scriptures say: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”
DLNT
Then Jesus says to him, “Go-away, Satan! For it has been written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only’” [Deut 6:13].
ERV
Jesus said to him, “Get away from me, Satan! The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God. Serve only him!’”
EHV
Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”
ESV
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
ESVUK
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
EXB
Jesus said to him, “·Go away from me [Get out of here; Be gone], Satan! [L For] It is written in the Scriptures, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him [Deut. 6:13].’”
GNV
Then said Jesus unto him, Avoid Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
GW
Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! Scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”
GNT
Then Jesus answered, “Go away, Satan! The scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him!’”