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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
IMHO, there are sects that overly control marriages:

RCC: Elders cannot marry (unbiblical)
LDS: Elders must go on mission for two years/separating from affianced/not marrying
JWS: Arranged marriages/pressure marriages/only marry JWs, etc.

Etc.

JW's have arranged marriages and pressure marriages? What?!

Also, one is very discouraged from marrying a non-JW but that person isn't disfellowshipped or punished because of it if they do marry them.

I would say the most intrusive element of their involvement in a marriage is what is and what isn't allowed in the bedroom..... obviously nobody will know unless one half of the couple gets a guilt trip and squeals to the elders, but the guilt is laid on thick. :tearsofjoy:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But the Jews had lost God's name
No they hadn't. The name is YHWH. They just don't speak it.

When Jesus and God are together in one verse, like John 1:1, the definite article identifies the true God Jehovah from the other god-like figure.
No it doesn't. See below. Your explanation is wrong.

Look carefully....here it is in the Greek Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

You see that little word "ho"...it means "the" and it appears four times in that one verse....it is seen before the first mention of "theos" but not before the second. Two "mighty ones" are here in this one verse. The Word was "with" the God but he was not the God ("ho theos"). Pro-trinitarian bias means that they leave out the little word "ho" in the English translation to make it look like Jesus is God.

If there is no definite article to indicate the difference between God and his son, there was no way to tell which "god" was being spoken about.....so identifying Jehovah as "THE God" revealed who was actually God and who was the Word. It was the Word who became flesh...not "The God".
No, this is mistaken. Here's why. You have to know how Greek actually works. In Greek if the definite article is missing, it does not logically follow that an indefinite article should be inserted (there is no indefinite article in Greek). In John 1 there is no definite article in front of the word 'God' in the phrase, 'and the Word was God.' However, in this case, we can't just assume that the word 'God' is meant to be 'indefinite,' and therefore just insert an indefinite article in the English translation. Even though the Greek language does not have an indefinite article like we would think of in English, there is a way in Greek for the writer to indicate the indefinite idea. This is done in Greek by using the Greek indefinite pronoun "tis." Because the first use of the word 'God' in John 1:1 (‘the Word was with God’) clearly refers to the Only True God, John would more than likely have used a different Greek construction than he did if he had meant for this next phrase to refer to some ‘lesser’ god, and didn't want us to confuse this with the True God he had just mentioned. If John meant to avoid confusion, when making such a definitive statement, he could have done so by using this 'indefinite pronoun' ('tis') as an adjective. This would have made it clear that the Word was 'a certain god,' but not the one he was just referring to. Therefore, according to the Greek grammatical structure here, it seems clear that john is indicating that the Word is of the same essence and nature as the true God he first mentioned.

Additionally, the syntax reveals John's meaning, as well. The phrase in John 1:1 is an example of a predicate nominative preceding the subject in the sentence. (Sentences like this one that use a linking verb require the noun in the predicate part of the sentence to be in the nominative case. The subject of this clause is 'the Word' and the predicate is 'God.' In Greek, the word 'God' comes before 'Word.' According to normal Greek usage, the word 'God' should not have a definite article. Very often, emphasis is shown in Greek by placing a word out of its normal, expected word order. Special emphasis can be illustrated when the predicate comes first in the sentence. In other words, contrary to the thought that 'since there is no definite article used here it could mean some other god,' the fact that the word 'God' is used first in the sentence actually shows some emphasis that this Logos (Word) was in fact God in its nature. However, since it doesn't have the definite article, it indicates that the Word was not the same 'person' as the Father God, but has the same essence and nature.

Anti-Trinitarian bias means that the translators of the NWT have added the little word “a” to the translation in order to make it look like John was not equating Jesus with God.

Sorry... you have been misled...
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Do you think Jehovahs Witnesses not celebrating Christmas, or not believing Jesus was born in December from a long time even when the rest of Christendom actually believed it is some kind of honest acceptance of facts?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes I wouldn't argue with you about the apostolic succession aspect.

But I'm now intrigued - and always willing to learn from an expert.;) Why do you say Henry started nothing? Is there evidence that the Church in England wanted to break with Rome of its own volition, before the issue of Henry's marriage annulment came up? I have never come across this idea.
No. But "started something" infers something brand new. The Anglican Church merely represents a break with the authority of the Bishop of Rome, and not the theology of the Church. This doesn't indicate that Henry "started" anything. The basic forms, theology, and Tradition of the Church were left intact.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Do you think Jehovahs Witnesses not celebrating Christmas, or not believing Jesus was born in December from a long time even when the rest of Christendom actually believed it is some kind of honest acceptance of facts?
No. We know that 12-25 is a contrived date. JWs dismiss it because they say that it is derived from a "Pagan festival." What they fail to mention -- or recognize -- is that every religion, including Judaism and Christianity, comes from some earlier, Pagan something. Judaism and Xy merely took the Pagan symbols and ascribed new meaning to them. This is usual, and not a deal-breaker for authenticity.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No. We know that 12-25 is a contrived date. JWs dismiss it because they say that it is derived from a "Pagan festival." What they fail to mention -- or recognize -- is that every religion, including Judaism and Christianity, comes from some earlier, Pagan something. Judaism and Xy merely took the Pagan symbols and ascribed new meaning to them. This is usual, and not a deal-breaker for authenticity.

What you say is true to all religions.

Yet again, isn't that accepting a fact? At least!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What you say is true to all religions.

Yet again, isn't that accepting a fact? At least!
Correct. Everyone borrows. Reason why is that truth is truth. The rest is how we "window-dress" that truth.

Yes. It is accepting a fact. That's why I can't accept the JW position that only they "have the 'truth.'"
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
No. But "started something" infers something brand new. The Anglican Church merely represents a break with the authority of the Bishop of Rome, and not the theology of the Church. This doesn't indicate that Henry "started" anything. The basic forms, theology, and Tradition of the Church were left intact.
Yes of course. Now I understand what you mean.

But although I realise Henry didn't start any shift in doctrine towards Protestantism, it seems to me he did, shall we say, alter the conditions, firstly by disconnecting the church from papal authority, and then secondly by dissolving the monasteries. I'd have thought the latter would have removed a lot of the doctrinal "inertia", so to speak, of the church, and given the bishops a much freer rein to experiment later, under Edward VI. So he was in that sense a (rather unwitting) enabler of change, wasn't he?
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
The Anglican Bishops rejected God, Jesus said accept you then you accept Him he added those who reject you reject him and the Father! The Anglican Bishops are not in union with the One Church Jesus established! Also their communion is not the communion of the Catholic Church! It is phony! Playing priest is not the same as a real priest!
This is both daft and borderline offensive. It is ludicrous to claim that any Christian bishop has "rejected God". This is the sort of horrible exclusivism one associates with the wilder reaches of extreme Protestantism. I think you should tone it down.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes of course. Now I understand what you mean.

But although I realise Henry didn't start any shift in doctrine towards Protestantism, it seems to me he did, shall we say, alter the conditions, firstly by disconnecting the church from papal authority, and then secondly by dissolving the monasteries. I'd have thought the latter would have removed a lot of the doctrinal "inertia", so to speak, of the church, and given the bishops a much freer rein to experiment later, under Edward VI. So he was in that sense a (rather unwitting) enabler of change, wasn't he?
Of course he was. I think your assessment of the monasteries is spot on.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Yo', @Israel Khan,

(a) JW trivia:
9 things you likely didn't know about Jehovah's Witnesses
I didn't know #1 and #8, and am not surprised by either fact.

(b) To the best of your memory, what are the negative consequences of not being a JW in good standing (1) during a person's mortal life on earth and (2) after that person's death.

(1) My memory and understanding is that JWs alive during Armageddon are going to have as hard a time as non-JWs, i.e. JWs don't believe in a "Rapture" event, in which they will be taken away before the Great Battle.

(2) And if I've got it close to accurate, as for post-mortal consequences of being a non-JW or a JW who is not in good standing, there is no Hell-fire and brimstone punishment, ... only annihilation of the person's memory and no chance of that memory being uploaded to a spirit body.

What say you?
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
No. But "started something" infers something brand new. The Anglican Church merely represents a break with the authority of the Bishop of Rome, and not the theology of the Church. This doesn't indicate that Henry "started" anything. The basic forms, theology, and Tradition of the Church were left intact.

sojourner With all respect; I said it before but I think in this case it is worth repeating... "To be in protest and to reject the Catholic Church you must reject the scriptures"!
This is scripture.... “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Question: Did King Henry reject the Church? The Bishops are the Church he refused to LISTEN!!! He rejected Jesus! (Verse above) By rejecting the Bishops- (the AUTHORITY of the Church the Bishops decide the Traditions & Theology) he rejected the Church the holy body of Jesus!
Take a closer look at the scripture verse above, rejecting the Church rejecting the voice of the Church is rejecting Jesus thus... whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me
You must reject “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Your bishops and priests do not have apostolic succession! When they left the Body of Jesus they lost it! Aries and his followers do not, all Heretics that came out of the Holy Body also do not have apostolic succession!
There is ONLY One Catholic Church there can only be One Truth!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I didn't join the religion to make friend. I joined the religion to serve God. Once I stopped believing that they served God then I left easily. I wasn't in it for emotional reasons.
So you won't be, and (I understand) are not troubled by a lack of contact with JWs.

I didn't know that about you. Which religion did you belong to?
You cannot be that much out of contact with the real world surely?
You don't have to be in or leave a religion to find yourself estranged by blood ties.
But sure, Jesus was, or his comments suggest that very strongly.


My parents were never JW's so we are all good. I was a convert. Hence why I said that there is a difference between converts and those born in a group. Converts should know exactly what they are getting into and if they find out the religion is wrong and then struggle to leave it is a result of their own lack of research and critical thinking. I was young and stupid so I didn't research enough.
OK, so you won't be holding that against the JWs, I hope?


I didn't quote the book.
I'll stop you right there!!
You quoted the Book's title in some kind of comparison to the Watchtower, then called 'foul' when I smashed that idea completely!

By placing any part of Watchtower beside that book's title you stabbed the JWs very hard in my opinion. You don't get to call foul on that one.

I asked if you read it and then if you know about the certain ministries. The reason why i asked this is because the different ministries methods are used by many groups today to a lesser or greater degree. For instance, information control, is something that China, North Korea, Scientology and many other groups use to a great degree. Then a lot of religious groups use this to a lesser degree. Such as saying that one mustn't study other religions or not look at what critics say about the religion otherwise there will be consequences. That is all I was getting at. 1984 shows the consequences of these methods of control to the extreme.
Oh dear....... which country do you live in?

I love the book. It made me realise quite a lot about how people control others in real life.

Yep! Double Think is used a lot! So when I mention other groups, even our governments use this level of control.
At last! So China, North Korea and Scientology are not the only countries that use Double think etc.

Sorry to hear that.
I wish all of my blood relatives a happy and contented life.
My wife has provided all of that for me, so no great sorrows for me.
But thank you for that kind thought. :)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
sojourner With all respect; I said it before but I think in this case it is worth repeating... "To be in protest and to reject the Catholic Church you must reject the scriptures"!
This is scripture.... “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Question: Did King Henry reject the Church? The Bishops are the Church he refused to LISTEN!!! He rejected Jesus! (Verse above) By rejecting the Bishops- (the AUTHORITY of the Church the Bishops decide the Traditions & Theology) he rejected the Church the holy body of Jesus!
Take a closer look at the scripture verse above, rejecting the Church rejecting the voice of the Church is rejecting Jesus thus... whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me
You must reject “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Your bishops and priests do not have apostolic succession! When they left the Body of Jesus they lost it! Aries and his followers do not, all Heretics that came out of the Holy Body also do not have apostolic succession!
There is ONLY One Catholic Church there can only be One Truth!
Enough of this. You are an embarrassment to the Catholic faith and I am putting you on Ignore before I say something very rude.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
With all respect; I said it before but I think in this case it is worth repeating... "To be in protest and to reject the Catholic Church you must reject the scriptures"!
They didn't "protest." They didn't "reject the Church." They simply rejected the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome.

Your bishops and priests do not have apostolic succession!
Of course they do.

When they left the Body of Jesus they lost it!
They didn't leave the Body of Jesus. They simply affirmed another facet of it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
LOL! That's actually quite funny coming from you, given your "great affection" for fundamentalist Christians who take things in Scripture literally. One would be hard-pressed to find a group of Christians more fundamentalist and "literalist" than the JWs, and I'd be amazed to hear of one joining an ecumenical council.

I'm please to have amused you. I'm simply providing my perspective of the JWs based on many discussions and some research. Of course I don't believe for one moment their biblical doctrine is superior to all other Christian doctrine but that is what they believe.

I'm on my third year serving on my cities interfaith council. We've never had any JWs join us and can't imagine that will change any time soon.

I do enjoy discussions with Christians from a variety of perspectives, fundamentalists and JWs included.:D
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
They didn't "protest." They didn't "reject the Church." They simply rejected the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome.


Of course they do.

They didn't leave the Body of Jesus. They simply affirmed another facet of it.

I point out... They rejected the "Bishops of Rome"???! It is the Bishops that are in line to the Apostles the Pope has linage back to the Apostle Peter Fact is the Apostles are BISHOPS!
King Henry in pride and rage rejected the teaching of the Church, he got divorced, he killed the Bishops that did not change sides, he stole Church property! King Henry rejected the Church he started his own church! Historical Fact: The Anglican church was started by a man; King Henry!
sojourner Again I point out to you the Apostles are BISHOPS they speak for the Jesus!

Scripture the words of Jesus>>>> “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Do you see the word "YOU" in the verse?! The YOU is a BISHOP!
sojourner Reject the Bishops then you are rejecting Jesus! What does this verse tell you? Do you believe the verse? Do you accept the words of Jesus as true!?
Rejecting the Bishops is tantamount to rejecting "God"!

Note.. The Preaching of the Bishop Timothy saves men! Bishops are the voice of Jesus, the Priests are the Hands of Jesus! In the Old Testament the Prophet was the Voice of God the Priests were the Hands of God! To reject the Bishops is to reject the word of Jesus!
1 Timothy 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

To be Protestant you MUST reject the scriptures!
 
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