firedragon
Veteran Member
Cheers.
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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
Cheers.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Catholic Church has both good and bad histories, Dogknox20, and closer to where I live the history has been somewhat less good, dodgy, even.
And its charities were mostly there to promote its congregations. But the Catholic record in connection with slavery does need some consideration as well.
The church must make reparation for its role in slavery .
www.ncronline.org › news › opinion › church-must-m...15 Jun 2020 - In the 15th century, the Catholic Church became the first global institution to declare that Black lives did not matter. In a series of papal bulls ...
Indeed, Dogknox20, my sinning is far beyond your perceptions, I should think, but where did you get the idea that I belong to any church at all? I support blood transfusions. I don't mind the pointy finger thing but you need to be accurate in its use.
Bible source?
Teach me something......... from a bible source, about that.
I can't figure whether Jesus had his last supper on the first day of passover or the day before the first day of passover. But if you can quote a Thursday or Friday that would be great.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
oldbadger This is what metis said I copied and paste it to you so you won't miss it!
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"It is truly hypocritical and pathetic that many JW's, who have had their own fair share of scandals, negatively judges other churches for having scandals. Church was not made for sinless people as they wouldn't need church, plus there was even some scandals with the apostles, if these JW's would bother to remember the Gospel accounts of them. And Paul was angry with some of the things happening in the early Church as found in the epistles.
And then for these JW's to say that these other churches aren't really "Christian", whereas there are some churches that say much the same about them, is judgementalism on steroids by both sides.
And then supposedly then we as Catholics supposedly don't know our history? Gee, we're almost 2000 years old now, and exactly how old are the JW's?
I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that also taught that same kind of judgmental bigotry against Catholics, and basically every other denomination and religion as well. And yet after attending mass weekly for over 50 years, I have never once heard a priest make any claim that any other denomination "ain't true Christians". If I were to hear this from a priest or bishop, he'd get an ear-full from me, let me tell ya, because I won't put up with that judgmental nonsense.
The Church ain't perfect, no doubt, but it definitely has its strengths, which is why I converted to it"
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oldbadger I can't agree more!!!
Hello again, Dogknox20..... if I wanted to reply to a post written by another member then I would reply directly, but I think you need to speak for yourself.
So tell me....... how do you feel about, say, Christian Spiritualist Churches? No problems? Good!
But, 'no', I'm not a Christian Spiritualist nor a JW, in fact I'm not a Christian, I just have the most tremendous respect for the JWs in my area, is all. And I did have healing at a Christian Spiritualist church at 1.30pm on Monday 16th October 2017.
cataway
Well-Known Member
you say your not a Christion yet you go to a meeting ,get healed. and you still have no compulsion to go to the point of declaring your self Christion .Hello again, Dogknox20..... if I wanted to reply to a post written by another member then I would reply directly, but I think you need to speak for yourself.
So tell me....... how do you feel about, say, Christian Spiritualist Churches? No problems? Good!
But, 'no', I'm not a Christian Spiritualist nor a JW, in fact I'm not a Christian, I just have the most tremendous respect for the JWs in my area, is all. And I did have healing at a Christian Spiritualist church at 1.30pm on Monday 16th October 2017.
BTW God was not there . soooo you used the demons to do something for you hummmm
I gave you plenty of specifics.....you have apparently ignored them.
You want the truth? Or in those famous words from the movie, are you one who “can’t handle the truth”? I have noticed that you ignore most of what is presented to you.....
I told you once before....be careful what you ask for.
Is Charity the most important work that Jesus told his disciples to do?
Or was the preaching of the Kingdom something that was way more important?
How did Jesus tell him disciples to accomplish this all important work?
Matthew 10:11-15....
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city.”
Jesus did not tell his disciples to build grand cathedrals and sit and wait for people to come to them, but to go out to the people with the message of the kingdom, giving everyone an opportunity to hear the message and make decisions about it. Does your church do this? Not overseas missionary work, (all mainstream churches do that) but in their own neighborhoods, with the people who live around them? They need saving too.
Very few people in Christendom see the importance of “the great commission”, but it has to be carried out, right to "the end" of the present age. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Jesus said he would be "with" his disciples in this work, so if the churches are not engaging in it, then Christ is not 'with' them.
I can’t believe you you can even mention the orphanages......these disgusting institutions, which were nothing more than torture chambers for displaced children with no one for them to turn to for protection or comfort. Systemically abused by priests and nuns in those institutions in past decades, whom any Catholic child would tell you were anything but safe and happy places to grow up. I have studied the Bible with enough Catholic people to know that cruelty was the norm, both physical, sexual and emotional trauma inflicted on disadvantaged children. You cannot cancel this history or pretend that it didn't happen.
Schools were little more than indoctrination centers for Catholic beliefs and practices. The old saying by a Catholic clergyman.....'give me a child until seven years of age and they will be a Catholic for the rest of their lives'......was sadly true until relatively recent times.....I am beginning to believe that perhaps you are one of those. I have heard chilling tales of those who suffered in Catholic boarding schools. Not hear-say, but first hand accounts.
Welfare? What welfare? Did Jesus ever recommend hand to mouth charity? Was it practiced in Judaism? No it was not. Family members were responsible for the welfare of their own members and those related in the faith shared what they had with others.It was the same in first century Christianity. Most of today's charities are profit making businesses the church is just a front with the fat cats at the top getting most of the cream.
According to God's law to Israel, those with fields under cultivation were to leave the perimeter of their fields unharvested for the poor to glean, given the dignity of working for their own food. Jesus emphasized the idea of teaching the man to fish, rather than simply handing him one. Jesus promoted hard work, saying that both he and his Father were hard workers.
You are reading a very sanitized version of Catholic history, I’m afraid. Her track record is appalling. Catholicism did little more than misrepresent Christ to the world, conducting the inquisition with relish for torture and bloodshed. Yes, Dogknox20...they tortured them and then THEY KILLED THEM....!
Is the pot calling the kettle black? Or don't you believe that these things happened? This is undeniable history.
Oh please......if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that more people who receive blood transfusions die, than those who refuse them. In fact you will find very few who actually died because they did not receive a blood transfusion. The truth is that these ones would have died anyway....blood transfusion or not. Who told you that blood transfusions save lives? The tide on that error is turning. Hospitals that are dedicated to non-blood medical management have sprung up all over the world because it has been found that blood transfusions are actually dangerous. Non-blood management is now preferred because it has been demonstrated to result in better outcomes. They learned this from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Perhaps you need to see this.....?
ETA:
https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/italy/interview-pia-dibenedetto-md/
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oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yep.... Not a Christian, so free to go wherever.
I don't know how I got healed, a most amazing thing, but if it was demons then they ain't such a bad lot.
As you can see (and do) , Christians do point at other churches and deny them, but the member I was writing to says that Catholics tend not to. Hey ho.....
Shucks, I'm no ruler! I hope to be among millions -- maybe even billions -- living on this Earth under the rulership of Christ and his chosen ones.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Another aspect of your quesiton that may be interesting are the following:
- The 1st cent. Jewish beleivers in Jesus, were they JW's or is JW a movement that expanded upon what the 1st cent. Jewish beleivers in Jesus held by?
- If they cannot be classified as JW's why was the JW concepts not a part of their beleif system from the start?
- According to JW's, were the original JW's leaders products of the post Nicene Christianity? Meaning did they grow up in an already existing form of Christianity?
firedragon
Veteran Member
I wish I can start a new thread with your questions which I think are as relevant as cold to ice.
Good questions.....if I may....
Actually the ancient Jews were Jehovah's Witnesses....but you knew that, right? (Isaiah 43:10)
Jesus is called "the faithful and true Witness" (Revelation 3:14) so he was a witness for Jehovah as well.
Jehovah's Witnesses have been around a very long time apparently.....
Who says it wasn't? Our scripture begins in the same place as yours does. It just doesn't finish with no Messiah in the picture. Jesus was Jewish so the framework of his mission is clearly outlined in your own scripture. He just didn't match Jewish expectation....yet he fulfilled all the criteria in our understanding of the requirements.
The answer to that is NO! Since we share no beliefs in common with Christendom, we went back to the beginning and started again. That means that we shed just about everything Christendom introduced including its adopted beliefs, practices and creeds, and threw it all in the trash.
Daniel actually prophesied that this would take place in "the time of the end"...
"They will be clarified and whitened, and many will be purified, . . . .and all the wicked will not understand, but the wise will understand." (Daniel 12:9-10 Tanakh)
After that 'clarifying, whitening and purification', we do not resemble them in any way.
Actually the ancient Jews were Jehovah's Witnesses....but you knew that, right? (Isaiah 43:10)
Jesus is called "the faithful and true Witness" (Revelation 3:14) so he was a witness for Jehovah as well.
Jehovah's Witnesses have been around a very long time apparently.....
Who says it wasn't? Our scripture begins in the same place as yours does. It just doesn't finish with no Messiah in the picture. Jesus was Jewish so the framework of his mission is clearly outlined in your own scripture. He just didn't match Jewish expectation....yet he fulfilled all the criteria in our understanding of the requirements.
The answer to that is NO! Since we share no beliefs in common with Christendom, we went back to the beginning and started again. That means that we shed just about everything Christendom introduced including its adopted beliefs, practices and creeds, and threw it all in the trash.
Daniel actually prophesied that this would take place in "the time of the end"...
"They will be clarified and whitened, and many will be purified, . . . .and all the wicked will not understand, but the wise will understand." (Daniel 12:9-10 Tanakh)
After that 'clarifying, whitening and purification', we do not resemble them in any way.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
The Jehovah's Witnesses originated in the United States as a consequence of the efforts of a disaffected Protestant, Charles Taze Russell, who prophesied the Rapture and imminent end of the world in 1878. As a Presbyterian, and then a Congregationalist, in his youth, he was predisposed to be anti-catholic. In the 1870's, he became interested in the teachings of the sabbatarian, devoutly anti-catholic, failed Millerites and Seventh-Day Adventists. So, in answer to one of your questions: yes, the first false JW prophet and early associates "grew up" in an already existing form of Christianity.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The JW's started in 1870, so it obviously cannot qualify as the Church that Jesus and the apostles started:
The group emerged from the Bible Student movement founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell, who also co-founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881 to organize and print the movement's publications.[3] A leadership dispute after Russell's death resulted in several groups breaking away, with Joseph Franklin Rutherford retaining control of the Watch Tower Society and its properties.[10] Rutherford made significant organizational and doctrinal changes, including adoption of the name Jehovah's witnesses[11][note 1] in 1931 to distinguish them from other Bible Student groups and symbolize a break with the legacy of Russell's traditions.[12][13][14][15] -- Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia
Thus, what also is important is that Jesus created the Church as an organization with the appointment of the Twelve and gave them the power to guide the Church and to bid or loosen sins:
Matthew 16[13]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
[14] And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
[15] He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Again, this could not possibly be a reference to the JW's.
But then the JW's claim that there were always "Witnesses", but that then avoids the point that the Church was and is an organization, which Paul states is "one body". "Church" is mentioned 109 times in the N.T., thus it obviously must have been very important to Jesus, the Twelve, and to the authors of the N.T. [see those verses with this link]: Bible, Revised Standard Version
Thus, any claim by the JW's that they're somehow the "true church" is logically and scripturally bogus. And their concept that the Church slipped into apostasy makes no sense since Jesus said that he, through the Holy Spirit, would guide the Church until the end of times.
And on top of this, it was the Catholic Church in the 4th century that selected the canon that the JW's and most other Christians use, so if the Church had supposedly slipped into apostasy, then why use the canon that same exact church selected?
And yet the JW's continue to claim that all other denominations except them fell into apostasy, which basically turns Jesus and the Twelve into a batch of liars.
The group emerged from the Bible Student movement founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell, who also co-founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881 to organize and print the movement's publications.[3] A leadership dispute after Russell's death resulted in several groups breaking away, with Joseph Franklin Rutherford retaining control of the Watch Tower Society and its properties.[10] Rutherford made significant organizational and doctrinal changes, including adoption of the name Jehovah's witnesses[11][note 1] in 1931 to distinguish them from other Bible Student groups and symbolize a break with the legacy of Russell's traditions.[12][13][14][15] -- Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia
Thus, what also is important is that Jesus created the Church as an organization with the appointment of the Twelve and gave them the power to guide the Church and to bid or loosen sins:
Matthew 16[13]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
[14] And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
[15] He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Again, this could not possibly be a reference to the JW's.
But then the JW's claim that there were always "Witnesses", but that then avoids the point that the Church was and is an organization, which Paul states is "one body". "Church" is mentioned 109 times in the N.T., thus it obviously must have been very important to Jesus, the Twelve, and to the authors of the N.T. [see those verses with this link]: Bible, Revised Standard Version
Thus, any claim by the JW's that they're somehow the "true church" is logically and scripturally bogus. And their concept that the Church slipped into apostasy makes no sense since Jesus said that he, through the Holy Spirit, would guide the Church until the end of times.
And on top of this, it was the Catholic Church in the 4th century that selected the canon that the JW's and most other Christians use, so if the Church had supposedly slipped into apostasy, then why use the canon that same exact church selected?
And yet the JW's continue to claim that all other denominations except them fell into apostasy, which basically turns Jesus and the Twelve into a batch of liars.
firedragon
Veteran Member
With all due respect, that's not a fair argument. JW's name maybe new, the movement as a group maybe new, the initiators of this movement maybe new, but the teachings maybe biblical thus if anything is biblical it is the oldest.
I am not saying their teachings are biblical for sure, that's not my argument. My argument is that you are not making a fair argument. If you wish to argue about the oldest and older movements and teachings etc, marcionism is older than the athanasian trinity, Arianism is older than the nicean creed. So are you gonna go back to older groups?
Rather, make a biblical argument and prove that the JW's are not biblical (again not my argument) which would be a more pertinent argument.
Cheers.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not even close to being true, such as I posted in regards to the JW's ignoring what Jesus said about the Church. The Bible long predates the JW's, both in its composition and its canonization, and it was selected by the Catholic Church.
Those were movements that occurred long after the Church was created in the first place. The creation of the Nicene Creed, which was an elaboration on the Apostles Creed, was deemed necessary to counteract such "heresies".
I have in this one area but there are other areas as well whereas they simply ignore what they want to ignore, twist things that other denominations do so as to fit their stereotypes, and then say that they're the only true Christian organization.
BTW, if you want to research a denomination that are more literalistic in their approach to the Bible, maybe check out the Amish and Mennonite. I have spent some time with them down in northern Indiana, including attending a Mennonite service.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Metis. I am not a Jehovahs witness. But anyone can spot that your comment is just rhetoric.
I dont agree with JW's. I dont agree with you either. But this thread was opened to understand the JW's faith better and to hear the opposing views put objectively.
Again, make a biblical argument and prove that the JW's are not biblical (again not my argument) which would be a more pertinent argument.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
History is not "rhetoric", nor am I just spouting Catholic theology but well-known and well-established Christian history. Here, and scroll down to #5: Christianity - Wikipedia
Also, I did not say the JW's were "not biblical", as that's way too broad of a stroke.
Misty Woods
A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Mr. Sampson, .... The question referring to the location within the Holy Scriptures where this apostles creed that you speak so strongly of is located, is indeed a very honest and fair question... Jesus did command his apostles/disciples to spread the good news of the Kingdom throughout the inhabited earth. Therefore, if you know without any form of doubt that you are privy to scriptures within the Bible that any of us other imperfect humans are not privy to, then as a true disciple of Christ Jesus, you are certainly obligated to share this information.
Misty Woods
A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
We are very much alike