The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[Eyes to See]

I didn't honestly think of JW's this way before this. But as you say conformity is good and bad. Its called "Taklidh" in Arabic. The problem with that side of belief is that it could be dogmatic and blind. It has happened in most religions if not all.

Yet again, it is a genetic fallacy if I claim that JW's are wrong because watch tower is the controller like the old Catholic Church. Maybe their theology is great and more scriptural. I wish to understand.

God is not a God of disorder but of peace. His people are also unified in the same pure language of truth from the Bible.

God's spirit promotes peace, love, and unity. The people who have the same teaching of truth from the Bible, that are peaceful, have love among each other, and in agreement have God's blessing.

Where divisions, sects, fights, and disagreements are the spirit of God is lacking.

 

[firedragon]

A couple of good historians that talk about the corruption of the Christian congregation (church) after Jesus died are Edward Gibbon and Will Durant. I think Edward Gibbon did a good job in his very wordy The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's been years since I read either.

Even Jesus foretold an apostasy in the congregation after he died. He explained about it in an illustration of a sower of seed and a field. I hope you don't mind my going into some detail in answering your questions above. As I have some time and my mind is on it I thought I would.

"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field.  While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left.  When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

The disciples did not understand this illustration and after the people left Jesus they asked him what it meant.

Jesus said that he spoke by means of illustrations so that those who did not have the right heart condition would not understand it. They did not appreciate spiritual matters and did not take the time to stop and investigate them further.

The disciples did have the right attitude and asked for understanding and it was given to them:

"His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.”  In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man;  the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,  and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."-Matthew 13:36-43.

See: The Great Apostasy Develops — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY a good explanation of the apostasy that developed in the Christian Church after Jesus' death.

Here is the chapter in Edward Gibbon's voluminous work that goes into some detail about this falling away and apostasy of the truth:

https://erenow.net/ancient/fallromeempire/volumei/26.php

The idea that Jesus was god was not taught by his original apostles or followers. But in the succeeding centuries after his death many sects of Christianity developed, which eventually lead to the Athanasian Creed.

The Protestant Reformation was a protest against many of the abuses of the Catholic Church and the schism was further driven among the warring sects of Christendom. But the reformations did not get rid of many of the pagan teachings that had seeped into the Church and corrupted Christianity over the centuries. It was not God's time.

Notice that it would be during the time of the end that the wheat would be separated from the weeds. The weeds appear as wheat, they are imitation Christians.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a sect of Christendom as are the many branches of Protestants.

Rather they are a return to the original form, or true Christianity. This is a work of Jehovah God and not that of any man.

Remember the illustration of the wheat and the weeds.

The Sower: Jesus Christ.

He sowed the fine seed while on earth and preached about the good news of God's kingdom gathering followers of the truth.

The field: The world of mankind.

Jesus sowed the kingdom truth in people's hearts as he preached about God's kingdom. Some people listened to the message.

The fine seed: The sons of the kingdom. True anointed Christians.

The Weeds: The sons of the wicked one.

The Enemy: Satan the Devil.

Satan sows fake, or imitation Christians into the Christian congregation. In the beginning true Christians began to apostatize, that is turn away from the truth and taught falsehoods to gather people to themselves. The apostates were not weeds.

Later people such as Emperor Constantine who were pagan feigned to be followers of Christ, and while he officiated at the Pontifix Maximus of the pagan religion of the Romans he claimed to be a follower of Christ. Many others followed his example. The pagan Emperor himself is the one who officiated over the Council of Nicaea and was the one who guided the discussions. This pagan was the one who got the council to agree to the concept that Jesus was God. The Trinity that added the holy spirit into the mix did not come for some centuries.

Satan had completely solidified the apostasy of the Christian Church. Now weeds were in full bloom. These were people who claimed to be Christian but never were to begin with.

The harvest: A conclusion of system of things.

Jesus in heaven would begin to separate the wheat, true anointed Christians, from the weeds, imitation Christians, in name only but who follow pagan teachings and God-dishonoring doctrines during the last days, or the conclusion of this system.

The reapers: Angels.

The angels are involved in the great preaching and teaching work of the good news during the last days. In Revelation we are told it is an angel flying in mid-heaven declaring:

"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.  He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived."-Revelation 14:6, 7.

The return to true worship by Jehovah's Witnesses was foretold by Jesus Christ.

The many sects and divisions of Christendom are the weeds. Imitation Christians.

The preaching work is a modern-day miracle.

There is only one true faith and one true baptism.

"One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."-Ephesians 4:4-6.

Even Jehovah himself proclaimed that he would have witnesses for his name:

“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none."-Isaiah 43:10.

You know what mate? I honestly think that's a very good explanation. I thank you very much for that. I think I should read your post again. Quoting Gibbons, are you referring to the 6 volumes of decline and fall of the Roman Empire? Well I am ashamed to say that I have the ebook version of it but never read it. Yet. Been having it for a long time.

I think I get the picture.

 

[oldbadger]

I didn't honestly think of JW's this way before this. But as you say conformity is good and bad.

No. Conformity promotes Unity!
So its just good, and this can be shown in my next response.

Its called "Taklidh" in Arabic.

You don't happen to know its name in Swedish, do you? I mean, that would be as useful to me wouldn't it?

The problem with that side of belief is that it could be dogmatic and blind. It has happened in most religions if not all.

Of course it can be dogmatic! What do you think Groups of people are about? Churches and other religious groups identify themselves by 'doctrines' quite often supported by their leaders.......... If a religion's doctrine and dogma is found to be flawed, or false, then its followers tend to want to leave.

It's only when religious leaders make apostasy a Capital Offence with the Death Penalty that it becomes wicked. Don't know any of those, do you?

Yet again, it is a genetic fallacy if I claim that JW's are wrong because watch tower is the controller like the old Catholic Church.

Of course it is. It can only be wrong if it is found to be wrong, the fact that a religion has a leadership can't make it wrong. This is ABC stuff, but then you've got ABC stuff wrong before, I remember.......

Maybe their theology is great and more scriptural. I wish to understand.

Well it might be a good idea to ask polite questions of the JW members here? They're very knowledgeable about their faith. But to run a Thread titled :-
The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper? ..... ..... probably isn't going to impress them about your desire to learn from them, eh?

 

[firedragon]

As a Latter-day Saint I can relate to JWs in a couple of ways. One I don't accept the Trinity doctrine. Two, I consider my view of the Godhead to be biblical whereas the Trinity is not. I consider myself to be a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept the Trinity, they believe their doctrine of Jehovah is biblical, and as far as I know consider themselves to be Christian. Having said that, the Jehovah's Witness non-trinitarian view is significantly different from my Church's non-trinitarian view. Apologies to my Jehovah's Witness friends if you don't like the comparison to my church.

Please if you dont mind could you explain in your own words how the non-trinitarian doctrine of the JW's is different from Latter Day Saints?

 

[firedragon]

No. Conformity promotes Unity!
So its just good, and this can be shown in my next response.

It could also be one dogma. Well, by definition what you're proposing is the definition of Dogma. Thats fine. This is no place to argue on that.

 

[firedragon]

You don't happen to know its name in Swedish, do you? I mean, that would be as useful to me wouldn't it?

No I dont know Swedish. I just said this because it is a formal dogma in Islamic sects.

Well it might be a good idea to ask polite questions of the JW members here? They're very knowledgeable about their faith. But to run a Thread titled :-
The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper? ..... ..... probably isn't going to impress them about your desire to learn from them, eh?

Well, maybe people like you mate.

I think you are trying to derail this thread. So ciao.

 

[Deeje]

I had Jehovah Witness visit regularly and we chatted and I treated them with the respect that they deserved. They owned polite and good manners and believed in community and support, and like any group believe their owned interpretation of literature is correctly expressed and read.

Seeing that is all anyone is doing, reading literature, share the literature and self beliefs in groups. Community living accepted groups when those groups did not try to overthrow community life or lawful social conditions. For it is just a human opinion.

In human life, as I discussed with them, they believed that a son, being a human male proved spirituality in his male human life, by the conditions of the subject of the discussion.

For it is not just the fact that a son means male in human discussions using words, it is a fact that humans believe in spirit. The argument then becomes scientific, which I also discussed with them. Science claims its own human male son version of how it believes creation existed and spiritual inferred humans claim otherwise.

So our argument proves it was always about science, which they also concluded was the history of the majority of problems on Earth today. Groups who are dishonest. I admired how they really felt that they were motivated for a greater good, and I believed that they deserved my respect.

Bless you RE...and thank you for your kind words....that is one post I genuinely understood....I think God's spirit was guiding you.

 

[Deeje]

The problem with that side of belief is that it could be dogmatic and blind. It has happened in most religions if not all.

What is dogmatism? It is stating with conviction something which is not provable....something one "believes" to be true. So is all Bible teaching, dogma? No more so than saying all scientific teachings are dogma. There is much that is 'believed' in science that is not provable. So it appears that everyone has 'beliefs' about something. It is the collective beliefs held in common that make a community cohesive. Unity is produced and conflict avoided if all share the same beliefs. It make for peace and harmony......so nice in a world where those things are sadly lacking.

The Bible as a religious text book (so to speak) has many truths that are self-evident. so this IMO makes much of what it teaches very logical, substantiated and reliable.

Yet again, it is a genetic fallacy if I claim that JW's are wrong because watch tower is the controller like the old Catholic Church. Maybe their theology is great and more scriptural. I wish to understand.

When a belief is held by a church that cannot be substantiated in the scriptures, and they teach this as an fact, that is when you have blind dogma....because that is just taking some one's word as truth even though you have no way of knowing if it is.

In my experience, having been raised in the Anglican Church, there is much that I was taught growing up that I never questioned. It was a stated belief of my church and I never though to question it until I started to see flaws in the teachings and many things that just didn't add up.

When I raised my concerns, the attitude of the church was that they dismissed my questions and made me feel ashamed for asking. Because I had no way to address my concerns, I left and tried to find God elsewhere.....surely someone had the answers to my many questions....? But I came up empty. No one had any answers that sat well with my heart and that were backed up by scripture.

Just when I had all but given up, there was a knock at my door.....I had always turned JW's away but this day for some reason I felt compelled to ask my questions, but really did not expect any real answers....to my complete surprise, they opened their Bible and answered every one of them....

I have never stopped asking questions and the answers I get are so satisfying and so soundly based in scripture that now I am the one answering other people's questions and its a joyous thing to be able to share what I have learned with others.

 

[oldbadger]

I think you are trying to derail this thread. So ciao.

I responded to your sentences, point for point, and you are the OP. Maybe any disagreement with you is a derailment?
See you around....

 

[firedragon]

I responded to your sentences, point for point, and you are the OP. Maybe any disagreement with you is a derailment?
See you around....

Nice. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

What is dogmatism? It is stating with conviction something which is not provable....something one "believes" to be true. So is all Bible teaching, dogma?

Nope. You misunderstood.

When a belief is held by a church that cannot be substantiated in the scriptures, and they teach this as an fact, that is when you have blind dogma....because that is just taking some one's word as truth even though you have no way of knowing if it is.

Yes I agree.

Just when I had all but given up, there was a knock at my door.....I had always turned JW's away but this day for some reason I felt compelled to ask my questions, but really did not expect any real answers....to my complete surprise, they opened their Bible and answered every one of them....

I have never stopped asking questions and the answers I get are so satisfying and so soundly based in scripture that now I am the one answering other people's questions and its a joyous thing to be able to share what I have learned with others.

Well. That I truly respect.

If you have a tad bit of time could you give an example of one question that you had that was particularly answered by the Jehovahs Witnesses who knocked on your door or even later?

 

[blü 2]

A couple of good historians that talk about the corruption of the Christian congregation (church) after Jesus died are Edward Gibbon and Will Durant. I think Edward Gibbon did a good job in his very wordy The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's been years since I read either.

'Corruption' suggests that there was once a single pure, coherent concept of what we now call Christianity, but that it was taken from us by people about whom we should have negative thoughts.

I don't think there was ever a single thing called Christianity. Right from the NT there are five distinct Jesuses, each from a different pen, and using at least three incompatible Christologies. it's not impossible that a single historical figure is in there somewhere, but goodness knows who he was, or what he actually said. If indeed he was a genuine human in history, no one noticed him in his own time, and the earliest mention of him that we know of in history is Paul, some 20 years after the traditional date of the crucifixion. We don't get a purported biography until Mark c. 75 CE, and Matthew and Luke specifically, and John at a slightly greater distance, are rewrites of Mark to suit their authors' taste.

I don't see any way in which such a single pure coherent concept of Christianity, if there ever was one, can be recovered. And if we could, it may not be to our taste. After all, a version of Jesus not to one's taste has resulted in thousands of Christian sects through history (spilling not a little blood in the process) and all over the world right now.

 

[firedragon]

What is dogmatism? It is stating with conviction something which is not provable....something one "believes" to be true. So is all Bible teaching, dogma? No more so than saying all scientific teachings are dogma. There is much that is 'believed' in science that is not provable. So it appears that everyone has 'beliefs' about something. It is the collective beliefs held in common that make a community cohesive. Unity is produced and conflict avoided if all share the same beliefs. It make for peace and harmony......so nice in a world where those things are sadly lacking.

The Bible as a religious text book (so to speak) has many truths that are self-evident. so this IMO makes much of what it teaches very logical, substantiated and reliable.



When a belief is held by a church that cannot be substantiated in the scriptures, and they teach this as an fact, that is when you have blind dogma....because that is just taking some one's word as truth even though you have no way of knowing if it is.

In my experience, having been raised in the Anglican Church, there is much that I was taught growing up that I never questioned. It was a stated belief of my church and I never though to question it until I started to see flaws in the teachings and many things that just didn't add up.

When I raised my concerns, the attitude of the church was that they dismissed my questions and made me feel ashamed for asking. Because I had no way to address my concerns, I left and tried to find God elsewhere.....surely someone had the answers to my many questions....? But I came up empty. No one had any answers that sat well with my heart and that were backed up by scripture.

Just when I had all but given up, there was a knock at my door.....I had always turned JW's away but this day for some reason I felt compelled to ask my questions, but really did not expect any real answers....to my complete surprise, they opened their Bible and answered every one of them....

I have never stopped asking questions and the answers I get are so satisfying and so soundly based in scripture that now I am the one answering other people's questions and its a joyous thing to be able to share what I have learned with others.

I just wish to state something I contemplated whether or not to say to you. When we live in a multicultural society we encounter all kinds of people, from your own faith and of course more so of others. I have encountered JW's (short form is easy I hope you dont mind) who come knocking on my door many a time. I have always noticed that they are very good in their work. They are probably the only set of people who come knocking on anyone's home, unlike the protestant Charismatic churches who has a completely different strategy where they believe in word of mouth. The JW's that I encounter are far more educated in the scripture than any other (protestant charismatic movements). I tend to respect protestant scholarship immensely. Their scholarship is so broad, broadminded, and valued. I have not spoken to JW bible scholars so I am not so well versed on their scholarship so mind my ignorance.

That being said taking the lay-men, the evangelist, the normal members of the movement who are not deemed scholars, I see JW's as far far more well versed in the scripture. They know the Bible very well. In my mind, this is fact but that could be anecdotal. I have spoken to many non-Christians who have encountered JW evangelists and they have said the same thing. But yet this could be anecdotal.

Yet, I have also known friends who make some silly claims. e.g. On a vacation one of my friends who was a JW claimed that his family bible suddenly appeared in his bag, 200 miles away from home. I honestly wanted to steal that Bible because it was probably the best looking bible I have seen, It was a work of art. But I can't believe that it appeared in his bag. Anyway he is a known B.S'r. But that's specific to him, no generalisations intended. There was a JW lady who used to come to my neighbourhood everyday and help people with their housework. I have not met this lady because I go to work and she comes during daytime, but I have heard from every single person that she has a character of trustworthiness that makes people remember her. I mean this was 20 years ago so I still remember the tales of this lady.

There are two types of evangelists I respect as "scripturally savvy". One are the Jamaat of the Muslim religion and then the JW's. I have seen mormons in the streets but never at my own home where I can see them in action so I dont know about their evangelism, but of course the few I know are pretty good too. But yet, JW's outrun them by far.

This is my personal experience so please excuse me.

Peace.

 

[thomas t]

Can JW's and other Christians in the forum provide some insight?

good question, firedragon.
Let's go to the JW Homepage here:
" Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

Yes. We are Christians for the following reasons:
[...]
However, in a number of ways, we are different from other religious groups that are called Christian."

Here we see them refraining from calling Christian denominations in fact Christian, if they are not JW.
To me this statement comes across as saying professing Christians can only be called Christians by name, if they don't want to be JW.
I hate this attitude.
Of course I am a Christian.

 

[firedragon]

good question, firedragon.
Let's go to the JW Homepage here:
" Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

Yes. We are Christians for the following reasons:
[...]
However, in a number of ways, we are different from other religious groups that are called Christian."

Here we see them refraining from calling Christian denominations in fact Christian, if they are not JW.
To me this statement comes across as saying professing Christians can only be called Christians by name, if they don't want to be JW.
I hate this attitude.
Of course I am a Christian.

Err. I respect that brother.

 

[PruePhillip]

'Corruption' suggests that there was once a single pure, coherent concept of what we now call Christianity, but that it was taken from us by people about whom we should have negative thoughts.

I don't think there was ever a single thing called Christianity. Right from the NT there are five distinct Jesuses, each from a different pen, and using at least three incompatible Christologies. it's not impossible that a single historical figure is in there somewhere, but goodness knows who he was, or what he actually said. If indeed he was a genuine human in history, no one noticed him in his own time, and the earliest mention of him that we know of in history is Paul, some 20 years after the traditional date of the crucifixion. We don't get a purported biography until Mark c. 75 CE, and Matthew and Luke specifically, and John at a slightly greater distance, are rewrites of Mark to suit their authors' taste.

I don't see any way in which such a single pure coherent concept of Christianity, if there ever was one, can be recovered. And if we could, it may not be to our taste. After all, a version of Jesus not to one's taste has resulted in thousands of Christian sects through history (spilling not a little blood in the process) and all over the world right now.

Frankly I am not sure about the reality of my own father. One minute he is loving
and kind, the next he is angry. One minute he's giving and the next he is withholding.
Can't be the same person, can it?
Same with Jesus.
The message in the four Gospels is the same, but seen through the lens of four
people - like any other four person accounts.
Luke isn't a "rewrite", he took verses from Matt and Mark just as he took verses from
maybe other Gospels and eye witness accounts (he died ca 66 AD)
Pure Christianity cannot be 'corrupted.' It's there in black and white in the Gospels. It's
up to you whether it means anything, and whether you want that life or not. Certainly
there's 35,000 churches with their own bent on the Gospels, but many people pay no
attention to them.

 

[Deeje]

Well. That I truly respect.

If you have a tad bit of time could you give an example of one question that you had that was particularly answered by the Jehovahs Witnesses who knocked on your door or even later?

There was one question that my church could not, or would not commit to answer....."where are the dead?"....specifically, where are those who lost faith in the church because they were wounded by an incident in life that left them devastated? Were they in heaven or hell?

When JW's called that day I had lost my father suddenly to a heart attack aged only 52, just the year before. He had been in the Second World War along with his only brother, whose life was lost when his plane was shot down over France. My father never got over the loss. They did everything together and now he was left to wonder why God would allow something so heartbreaking to happen to such a good man. His wife was expecting their first child and this boy would never get to meet his Dad.....My father's faith was shattered and he stopped going to church, but he and my mother still sent us kids to Sunday School and later to church. He never spoke to us of his issues, and so we were brought up believing what the church taught.

When I lost him I couldn't rest easy not knowing where he was. If he was in heaven, was he mourning the loss of us as were mourning the loss of him? If he was in hell, how could God be so cruel to one whose heart was broken?

You see I needed to know because I could not put him to rest until I knew that he was not suffering....somewhere.

When I brought up the question with the JW's ladies at my door, I was angry because I thought they would respond to my questions the way my church had.....but they were very sympathetic and asked me to read one scripture.....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

I couldn't believe what I was reading.....was this saying that my Dad was just unconscious....unable to think or feel or do anything?....unaware of anything going on in the world? I looked up at them and said..."is this true?" They nodded and I asked for more proof...they asked if I had heard of the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, and of course I had learned that as a child in Sunday School.
They asked me to read it....
John 11:1-14....
"Now a man named Lazʹa·rus was sick; he was from Bethʹa·ny, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. . . .3 So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.”. . . But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”. . . .After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".

They asked me to read the account carefully and asked where did Jesus say Lazarus was? I saw the word "asleep" and it was like a huge wave or relief swept over me.....my Dad was not suffering anywhere...he was asleep. But if he is asleep, will he wake up like Lazarus?

John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".

Tears welled up as I contemplated what I had just learned....in three scriptures my mind was at peace as I knew my Dad was just sleeping, waiting for Jesus to wake him up.

I couldn't wait for them to come back because I had so many more questions.....but this was the answer that I had been looking for...straight from God's word. It had a huge impact on me and I will never forget it.

Our study sessions after that were amazing.....every question was answered from the Bible. If it was a curly one that they were not sure of, they researched the answer for me and brought it back the next week.
I will never forget the day I saw God's name in my own Bible....a little illustrated KJV that my grandmother had given to me when I was 10 years old.
Psalm 83:18...
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."
No one had ever told me that God had a name.....now its part of who I am....

 

[Deeje]

good question, firedragon.
Let's go to the JW Homepage here:
" Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

Yes. We are Christians for the following reasons:
[...]
However, in a number of ways, we are different from other religious groups that are called Christian."

Here we see them refraining from calling Christian denominations in fact Christian, if they are not JW.
To me this statement comes across as saying professing Christians can only be called Christians by name, if they don't want to be JW.
I hate this attitude.
Of course I am a Christian.

It isn't what we call ourselves, its what Jesus calls us that matters.

Can I ask you what you think Jesus and his disciples thought of those who shared their Jewish faith in the first century? Jesus' response to the Pharisees and their teachings indicates that he thought very little of those who were suppose to lead his brothers in the faith.....he castigated them severely in Matthew 23......consigning them to "gehenna" because they were completely negligent with regard to their flocks. Jesus was clearly leading his followers in a new direction, separate to the mainstream and the more they departed, the more alienated they became.

This resulted in a new faith, a new covenant and a new nation.

But Jesus warned that the devil would sow "weeds" of false Christianity in the same "field" as he had sown the "wheat". But when asked if the weeds should be gathered up, he said that that they should grow together until the harvest time. The weed in his illustration is called "bearded darnel" and in the Middle East it is known as "wheat's evil twin" because it looks just like wheat in the growing stages, but at the harvest time the heads look very different.

If you understand Jesus' illustration and the model set by the Pharisees, his words apply equally to today's religious leaders....
Matthew 15:6-9...
"So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Do we not see again that God's worship has been corrupted away from the teachings of Christ and instead been substituted with the traditions of men?

This is why we do not accept that those who teach false doctrines can possibly be Christians...i.e. footstep followers of Christ if they are teaching things that Christ never taught.

I was raised in Christendom and I saw first hand how they twist the Bible to teach false doctrines.This is the 'harvest time' and the 'sheep and goats' are being separated as we speak.
Jesus' words to those who identify as Christians, but who are not recognized by him are stinging....

"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

These ones apparently thought that they were true Christians, even offering their activities as proof, but Jesus says he NEVER knew them......"Never means "not ever". He has not known these ones since the beginning.....

If we do not want to be on the receiving end of that rebuke, then we had better know what God's will is...and do it.

 

[firedragon]

There was one question that my church could not, or would not commit to answer....."where are the dead?"....specifically, where are those who lost faith in the church because they were wounded by an incident in life that left them devastated? Were they in heaven or hell?

When JW's called that day I had lost my father suddenly to a heart attack aged only 52, just the year before. He had been in the Second World War along with his only brother, whose life was lost when his plane was shot down over France. My father never got over the loss. They did everything together and now he was left to wonder why God would allow something so heartbreaking to happen to such a good man. His wife was expecting their first child and this boy would never get to meet his Dad.....My father's faith was shattered and he stopped going to church, but he and my mother still sent us kids to Sunday School and later to church. He never spoke to us of his issues, and so we were brought up believing what the church taught.

When I lost him I couldn't rest easy not knowing where he was. If he was in heaven, was he mourning the loss of us as were mourning the loss of him? If he was in hell, how could God be so cruel to one whose heart was broken?

You see I needed to know because I could not put him to rest until I knew that he was not suffering....somewhere.

When I brought up the question with the JW's ladies at my door, I was angry because I thought they would respond to my questions the way my church had.....but they were very sympathetic and asked me to read one scripture.....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

I couldn't believe what I was reading.....was this saying that my Dad was just unconscious....unable to think or feel or do anything?....unaware of anything going on in the world? I looked up at them and said..."is this true?" They nodded and I asked for more proof...they asked if I had heard of the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, and of course I had learned that as a child in Sunday School.
They asked me to read it....
John 11:1-14....
"Now a man named Lazʹa·rus was sick; he was from Bethʹa·ny, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. . . .3 So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.”. . . But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”. . . .After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".

They asked me to read the account carefully and asked where did Jesus say Lazarus was? I saw the word "asleep" and it was like a huge wave or relief swept over me.....my Dad was not suffering anywhere...he was asleep. But if he is asleep, will he wake up like Lazarus?

John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".

Tears welled up as I contemplated what I had just learned....in three scriptures my mind was at peace as I knew my Dad was just sleeping, waiting for Jesus to wake him up.

I couldn't wait for them to come back because I had so many more questions.....but this was the answer that I had been looking for...straight from God's word. It had a huge impact on me and I will never forget it.

Our study sessions after that were amazing.....every question was answered from the Bible. If it was a curly one that they were not sure of, they researched the answer for me and brought it back the next week.
I will never forget the day I saw God's name in my own Bible....a little illustrated KJV that my grandmother had given to me when I was 10m years old.
Psalm 83:18...
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."
No one had ever told me that God had a name.....now its part of who I am....

You know I am no soothsayer but I think your dad was a great guy. For him to think of his friend as a good man and to think of his plight, he has to be a great guy. To lose faith thinking of why this should happen to good men, you have to be a great guy, because if you are an *** you will never think about it, why should you even consider why? Then even though he did kind of lose faith, he still sent you to Sunday school. I mean, what a great guy.

Anyway I am sorry for your loss. And those JW's had done a fantastic job. Also, Ecclesiastes is probably the most controversial book in the entire bible, and that was the first quote they read to you.

You have answered the question to me. Thanks for that, and thanks for sharing your story. I respect that.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I will add this. I don't think you would argue that Jesus is God or a part of a Trinity. You seem to be more level-headed than that. I see you are an intelligent person and a thinking one.

When I do come across people who believe in the Trinity who are sincere and want a good explanation as to why we don't believe Jesus is God I use 3 things.

I ask:

1. Can God die?
2. Can God be tempted?
3. Can God learn obedience?

The answer to all three is obvious. No.

1. Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
-Habakkuk 1:12.

The entire Christian faith is based upon the fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins:
"...through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us."
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10.

If Jesus was God he could not have died as God cannot die. He is immortal. What is more Jehovah cannot take the form of a human. No man can look upon God's face and live he is far too powerful for us:

No man has seen God at any time.
-John 1:18.

Jehovah talking to Moses:

“You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”
Exodus 33:20.



2.  When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.
-James 1:13.

Jehovah God is beyond corruption.

Jesus, on the other hand, like Satan had the opportunity to rebel against God. In fact Jesus was tempted by Satan. A thing that would be impossible if he were God.

And one of the temptations was to bow down and worship Satan in return for rulership over the kingdoms of the earth.

This would not have been a temptation if Jesus was God. Why would God be tempted to worship Satan? Why would the offer of rulership over the kingdoms of the earth be a temptation to God? As if Satan could offer anything to God.

Now notice how Jesus rebeuffed Satan's temptation:

"Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”  Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
-Matthew 4:8-10.

Jesus, although tempted resisted, and said it is Jehovah God you must worship.

3. Who has taken the measurements of the spirit of Jehovah,
And who can instruct him as his adviser?
-Isaiah 40:13.

God is peerless. Without match or equal. There is no one that can counsel him, or question him.

Jesus, while on earth, learned obedience to God through the things he suffered:

"Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."
-Hebrews 5:8.

Jesus did not want to go through with dying the way he was about to. If you remember on the night before his death he prayed fervently for God to remove the cup from him. That is, his having to die as a sinner, a blasphemer. Jesus was agonizing over this. And he expressed it in his prayer to Jehovah just before he died. But notice, while he expressed his strong dislike of what he had to do, he even pleaded for it to be removed from him, he said he was willing to die the way Jehovah willed for him to:

And he said: “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.”
-Mark 14:36.

What a moving verse this is. It shows Jesus' own thoughts on the matter and how he pleaded with Jehovah. But also his willingness to submit to his Father's will. Not his own. He "learned obedience"through the things he suffered.

There are many many many other things I can go on to relate to show how Jesus could not possibly be his Father. But these three things alone are enough for any reasonable person to conclude that they are not the same person.

There is no way Jesus could be God if he 1) died, 2) was tempted, 3) learned obedience by what he suffered.

I am not a Trinitarian. Yet I believe he was God manifest in the flesh. So there is a way he could be God - you just don't see it yet. Please read the following slowly and try to understand it.

God is a Spirit - not 3 persons as many believe. John 4:24

It's true you can't see an invisible Spirit. But you can see the image that he took on. And it turns out that YHWSH (the true name of the one you call Jesus) was the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1:14-15 And you can see the image. - John 14:7

It's true that God can't die or be tempted with evil. But if he wanted to take on the body of a man to sacrifice for man's sin (which is what he did), then that physical body could be tempted, and could also die. That fleshly body could also pray to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. God was giving us an example of how we can overcome.

That fleshly body was called his Son, because the eternal Spirit fathered that body. Matthew 1:18 The mistake so many make is to think it had to be another person. Rather, it was the body the eternal Spirit made to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. So no, the Spirit of God didn't die - (the Son) the fleshly body he took on did. But it was still God that was dwelling in that body. ( 2 Corinthians 5:19 and John 14:10 ) It was still his blood he shed. ( Acts 20:28 ) - feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (and the Greek does have "God" in some of the oldest manuscripts)