The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[sojourner]

You're talking to an uninformed meddling rock, who apparently has nothing better to do than turn this thread into a wrestling match with Christians.

Yeah, I know.

 

[Dogknox20]

2 Peter 2:1 Tells us from within the church will come false teachers! "There will be False teachers AMONG YOU" ***. I point out "Arius was a Catholic" he was AMONG Catholics!
The PROPHESY in 2 Peter 2:1 can only work in one direction Arius was IN the Church, he rebelled against the Teachings of the Church! NOTE: The Church was NOT among Arius the prophesy can only work in the one direction, Arius was AMONG the Church! PROVING.... from this scripture prophesy; Arius the False teacher!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.*** They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Arius introduced Heresies he was condemned and removed from the body of Christ as a False teacher by Church Council! The heresy he taught was "Jesus is NOT God"! The Jehovah Witness have roots to the heresy of Arius! Wait this Prophesy from scripture continues... Verse 2

2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

Clearly Arius the False Teacher brought truth into disfavor thus proving the Church he was AMONG and was removed from MUST be "The Way Of truth"!

 

[sojourner]

No. Conformity promotes Unity!
So its just good, and this can be shown in my next response.

Conformity promotes uniformity. There's a difference.

 

[Dogknox20]

I find your point about there never having been a single "true" church a powerful one, having read Diarmaid MacCulloch's book. It's clear that it took a long time for the main strands of Christianity to crystallise and stabilise and that there was a lot of disagreement, sometimes even bloody, in the early days.

I disagree with you.. The Great Commission tells us... "Jesus is with his Church ALWAYS to the end of time! To say he left or was somehow overpowered by Satan and Satan TOOK the Bride from Jesus is to reject scriptures and say God lied!
Matthew 28:20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

exchemist To think man had to come to God' rescue and FORM again the body of Jesus because Jesus lost his body, is to say God failed! It is to believe Jesus lied he did NOT remain ALWAYS with his body!

 

[sojourner]

I disagree with you.. The Great Commission tells us... "Jesus is with his Church ALWAYS to the end of time! To say he left or was somehow overpowered by Satan and Satan TOOK the Bride from Jesus is to reject scriptures and say God lied!
Matthew 28:20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

exchemist To think man had to come to God' rescue and FORM again the body of Jesus because Jesus lost his body, is to say God failed! It is to believe Jesus lied he did NOT remain ALWAYS with his body!

I think that's what the JWs assert -- that God lost the Church and had to get it back again. The historic Church believes it has continued uninterrupted since the beginning. I think the "Great Apostasy" is a load of hooey, to be perfectly honest.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

2 Peter 2:1 Tells us from within the church will come false teachers! "There will be False teachers AMONG YOU" ***. I point out "Arius was a Catholic" he was AMONG Catholics!
The PROPHESY in 2 Peter 2:1 can only work in one direction Arius was IN the Church, he rebelled against the Teachings of the Church! NOTE: The Church was NOT among Arius the prophesy can only work in the one direction, Arius was AMONG the Church! PROVING.... from this scripture prophesy; Arius the False teacher!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.*** They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Arius introduced Heresies he was condemned and removed from the body of Christ as a False teacher by Church Council! The heresy he taught was "Jesus is NOT God"! The Jehovah Witness have roots to the heresy of Arius! Wait this Prophesy from scripture continues... Verse 2
2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Clearly Arius the False Teacher brought truth into disfavor thus proving the Church he was AMONG and was removed from MUST be "The Way Of truth"!

Arius taught ' God is Unbegotten and without a beginning. The Son, because he is begotten cannot be God in the sense that the Father is. The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.'

 

[Dogknox20]

Hello sojourner You said... "I think that's what the JWs assert -- that God lost the Church and had to get it back again."
I Reply... All Protestant churches believe the One Church Jesus established was lost!! Otherwise they have no reason to be Re-Forming again a church!
They (protestors) started the De-Formation and continue to de-form to this day, so that now there are thousands and thousands of churches in PROTEST against the one church Jesus established 2000 years ago! To be a Protestant they have to reject scriptures otherwise they would have to be Catholics!

 

[Dogknox20]

Arius taught ' God is Unbegotten and without a beginning. The Son, because he is begotten cannot be God in the sense that the Father is. The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.'

URAVIP2ME it is good to meet you.. I reply; "God is love" the scriptures tell us "God is Love"! To love perfectly, to have PERFECT love you cannot love yourself.... God is PERFECT!! Logic alone says; to perfectly love you need another someone other, because "God is perfect love" he needs someone to love other then himself!!! If God always existed then the son had to always exist scriptures tell us God loves his son.. Jesus! If Jesus never was then God the PERFECT LOVE would not exist because God would not be perfect!
John 1 tells us "The word is God".. AND John 1 also tells us... "The word became flesh and dwelt among us"! Clearly from the scriptures; anyone with even half a brain would conclude God dwelt among us, that God became man/flesh! You would have to reject outright or twist and massage John 1 to make it say differently!
Luke 1 tells us Zechariah was a high priest.. Zechariah was charged with going into the Holy of Holies, all KNOW beyond all doubt Jews believe in ONE GOD and only one God! Zechariah the Jew believed in ONE God his wife Elizabeth must have believed in ONE and ONLY ONE God! All know in the Old Testament the book of the Jews God is called LORD! Mary come to visit Elizabeth in Luke 1, Elizabeth greets her with these words "Mother of My God"! Elizabeth would be blaspheming and condemning herself because she proclaimed Mary's child "God" ALSO....
URAVIP2ME also.... Scriptures tell us "Worship is for God and ONLY for God"! Jesus KNOWS worship is ONLY for God to worship anything or anyone else would be a grave sin and blasphemy!

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

URAVIP2ME Scriptures point us to people worshipping Jesus and Jesus does NOT correct them!! Jesus does NOT say to those people worshipping him "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" Jesus accepts them he does not stop them or correct them!!!!! Jesus would be making a very very grave sin by not stopping the people from worshipping him, if he was NOT God!

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelations7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

 

[firedragon]

Here is the "stumper" from 1 Tim 4:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

A group that overly controls marriages--and foods--is a demonic cult and not a part of the Christian faith.

Hold on. Mate, please make me understand. Overly control marriages? Who does?

 

[firedragon]

The heresy he taught was "Jesus is NOT God"!

No mate. You are wrong. You should go back a little and read up on the Arian controversy a bit more.

Arius didn't teach Jesus is "not God", in fact he taught that Jesus is also God, but just subordinate to God the father because he was born to God the father at a particular time before creation.

Cheers.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As a Latter-day Saint I can relate to JWs in a couple of ways. One I don't accept the Trinity doctrine. Two, I consider my view of the Godhead to be biblical whereas the Trinity is not. I consider myself to be a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept the Trinity, they believe their doctrine of Jehovah is biblical, and as far as I know consider themselves to be Christian. Having said that, the Jehovah's Witness non-trinitarian view is significantly different from my Church's non-trinitarian view. Apologies to my Jehovah's Witness friends if you don't like the comparison to my church.

That is fine, my cousin! We love to look for the common ground we share with amenable people, and we appreciate the same.

There was one question that my church could not, or would not commit to answer....."where are the dead?"....specifically, where are those who lost faith in the church because they were wounded by an incident in life that left them devastated? Were they in heaven or hell?

When JW's called that day I had lost my father suddenly to a heart attack aged only 52, just the year before. He had been in the Second World War along with his only brother, whose life was lost when his plane was shot down over France. My father never got over the loss. They did everything together and now he was left to wonder why God would allow something so heartbreaking to happen to such a good man. His wife was expecting their first child and this boy would never get to meet his Dad.....My father's faith was shattered and he stopped going to church, but he and my mother still sent us kids to Sunday School and later to church. He never spoke to us of his issues, and so we were brought up believing what the church taught.

When I lost him I couldn't rest easy not knowing where he was. If he was in heaven, was he mourning the loss of us as were mourning the loss of him? If he was in hell, how could God be so cruel to one whose heart was broken?

You see I needed to know because I could not put him to rest until I knew that he was not suffering....somewhere.

When I brought up the question with the JW's ladies at my door, I was angry because I thought they would respond to my questions the way my church had.....but they were very sympathetic and asked me to read one scripture.....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

I couldn't believe what I was reading.....was this saying that my Dad was just unconscious....unable to think or feel or do anything?....unaware of anything going on in the world? I looked up at them and said..."is this true?" They nodded and I asked for more proof...they asked if I had heard of the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, and of course I had learned that as a child in Sunday School.
They asked me to read it....
John 11:1-14....
"Now a man named Lazʹa·rus was sick; he was from Bethʹa·ny, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. . . .3 So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.”. . . But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”. . . .After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".

They asked me to read the account carefully and asked where did Jesus say Lazarus was? I saw the word "asleep" and it was like a huge wave or relief swept over me.....my Dad was not suffering anywhere...he was asleep. But if he is asleep, will he wake up like Lazarus?

John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".

Tears welled up as I contemplated what I had just learned....in three scriptures my mind was at peace as I knew my Dad was just sleeping, waiting for Jesus to wake him up.

I couldn't wait for them to come back because I had so many more questions.....but this was the answer that I had been looking for...straight from God's word. It had a huge impact on me and I will never forget it.

Our study sessions after that were amazing.....every question was answered from the Bible. If it was a curly one that they were not sure of, they researched the answer for me and brought it back the next week.
I will never forget the day I saw God's name in my own Bible....a little illustrated KJV that my grandmother had given to me when I was 10 years old.
Psalm 83:18...
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."
No one had ever told me that God had a name.....now its part of who I am....

I know we’ve discussed it before, Deeje...but isn’t knowing the Scriptures wonderful? How they magnify our loving God & Father, Jehovah!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And from what I have heard/read/experienced, JW's VERY MUCH want others to also believe their tripe.

Nice.

And so yes... yes they do need to explain. They have an expectation, and so theirs is the responsibility.

Nope. Not to those who think it’s “tripe”! Jesus didn’t ‘throw his pearls’ to just anyone....sometimes, he refused to speak.

So do we at times....
“Before the quarrel has burst forth, take your leave.”

 

[exchemist]

I disagree with you.. The Great Commission tells us... "Jesus is with his Church ALWAYS to the end of time! To say he left or was somehow overpowered by Satan and Satan TOOK the Bride from Jesus is to reject scriptures and say God lied!
Matthew 28:20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

exchemist To think man had to come to God' rescue and FORM again the body of Jesus because Jesus lost his body, is to say God failed! It is to believe Jesus lied he did NOT remain ALWAYS with his body!

This doesn't make any sense.

 

[Deeje]

Whether or not my question matters to you or not is irrelevant. My question to you matters to me: I wanted to determine whether you were a remarkably ignorant JW or just an uninformed meddler. Your answer confirms, to my satsifaction, that you are not a remarkably ignorant JW.

• In Deeje's post #24, she asked me: "what 'creeds' do you subscribe to, and do you remember the 'script' that you follow?"
• In my post #26, I responded: "How odd that you would ask."
  • Why on earth would I say that her question was odd?
    • Because she is a JW by her own confession, I knew that she is fundamentally biased against any and all Christian Creeds, without exception, before she asked her question and, therefore, she had no constructive motive in asking the question, since it is no secret--as you can easily confirm for yourself, the same way she did--that I have identified myself as a "Creedalist Xian".
    • To confirm my assumption that she is fundamentally biased against any and all Christian Creeds, read: Creeds — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
• I continued, in my post #26: "Not that I actually believe you're really interested in an answer, I subscribe to the Apostle's Creed, and yes, I remember it."
• It, therefore, came as no surprise to me when Deeje responded to my post with her post #29: "Where will I find the Apostles Creed in the gospels or any other writings of the apostles...? I can't seem to find it anywhere..."
  • Yet another disingenuous JW question seeking to lure me into a noxious exchange.
• I could have assumed that she was a remarkably ignorant JW and referred her to the www.jw.org site to relearn her JW ABCs. I assumed, instead, that she was just playing dumb, as I've noted that she likes to do from time to time, and posted my #30: "LOL! Feigned ignorance suits you well."
• To which you--woefully unaware of the little cat-and-mouse game Deeje was trying to play with me--responded with your Post #31: "I think it is a good question because there is no evidence the apostles wrote it or knew anything about it. It was probably given that name to make it sound more important. But it was really made up long after the time of the apostles."
• Which moves me to ask: "So ****ing what?" Are you assuming, as I strongly suspect Deeje does, that I am clueless about the origin and history of the Apostle's Creed? If so, get a grip, kid, I know a tad bit more about the Creed's origin and history than you think I do. Your mistake is in assuming that because I said that I subscribe to the Apostle's Creed and know the words of it, that I'm under some illusion that it has some status equal to or greater than the Bible. To me, the Apostle's Creed is just a collection of phrases that serve me as a memory aid. Do you really object to memory aids? If so, wait till you're 72 and find yourself in a store trying to remember what you wanted buy because you forgot your list of things that you wanted to buy. Maybe then, you'll view memory aids with a little more respect.
  
• As for your Post #64: "I do not belong to any church or religion. What is wrong with asking questions?"
• To which I respond:
  • Nothing at all is wrong with questions. Who said there's something wrong with asking questions? I didn't. I did try to put an end to Deeje's disingenuous cat-and-mouse game by mocking her feigned ignorance. But why does that concern you? Her questions, like yours, are off-topic in this thread, which is not about Terry's questions.

It seems to me that those who like to dish it out are the ones who whine the most when they are pressed about their own beliefs....sheesh Sampson, was all that really necessary? A running commentary? Seriously...

Cat and mouse games?....like I've got nothing better to do than to sit around and jerk your chain....

You don't like JW's.....I think we get it....

 

[oldbadger]

Conformity promotes uniformity. There's a difference.

It can promote both uniformity and unity, I guess.
I don't know too many churches where the congregation opinion differs greatly, why would folks think differently about JWs?

Christian Creeds and churches are legion, hundreds of them, all differing in belief or idea, if anybody doesn't accept the JW creed then they don't have to join ... true?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Nice.



Nope. Not to those who think it’s “tripe”! Jesus didn’t ‘throw his pearls’ to just anyone....sometimes, he refused to speak.

So do we at times....
“Before the quarrel has burst forth, take your leave.”

Tripe.

 

[sojourner]

It can promote both uniformity and unity, I guess.
I don't know too many churches where the congregation opinion differs greatly, why would folks think differently about JWs?

Christian Creeds and churches are legion, hundreds of them, all differing in belief or idea, if anybody doesn't accept the JW creed then they don't have to join ... true?

Unity allows for differences. Uniformity does not.

 

[sojourner]

Hello sojourner You said... "I think that's what the JWs assert -- that God lost the Church and had to get it back again."
I Reply... All Protestant churches believe the One Church Jesus established was lost!! Otherwise they have no reason to be Re-Forming again a church!
They (protestors) started the De-Formation and continue to de-form to this day, so that now there are thousands and thousands of churches in PROTEST against the one church Jesus established 2000 years ago! To be a Protestant they have to reject scriptures otherwise they would have to be Catholics!

No. Martin Luther had no wish to form a new church. Neither did the Anglicans. Neither did Rome or Constantinople. They merely excommunicated each other and carried on.

 

[Dogknox20]

This doesn't make any sense.

exchemist The Great Commission tells us Jesus will always be with his Church to the end of time! You disagree because your church is trying to "Form Anew" the Church! You are forced to reject the words of Jesus otherwise your church is WRONG there is NO need to build a church that was never lost!
You say it does not make sense because it goes against what your church teaches!

 

[Terry Sampson]

We're going to have stop meeting this way. Folks are beginning to talk.

.sheesh Sampson, was all that really necessary? A running commentary? Seriously...

Yes, it absolutely was necessary. And here's why:

• In my post #30, addressed solely to you, I wrote: "LOL! Feigned ignorance suits you well."
• In lostwanderingsoul's reponse to my message to you, post #31, he wrote: "I think it is a good question because there is no evidence the apostles wrote it or knew anything about it. It was probably given that name to make it sound more important. But it was really made up long after the time of the apostles."
• To which I responded with my post #33: "Are you a JW?"
• To which lostwanderingsoul replied, in post #64: "I do not think that matters but I do not belong to any church or religion. What is wrong with asking questions?"
• Which moved me to explain, in post #67, the reason for asking my question: "I wanted to determine whether you were a remarkably ignorant JW or just an uninformed meddler. Your answer confirms, to my satisfaction, that you are not a remarkably ignorant JW."
• Having confirmed, to my satisfaction, that lostwanderingsoul is, in this thread, "an uninformed meddler", I proceeded to explain to "lost" why I don't believe your question to me--posted in your #24, to wit: "what 'creeds' do you subscribe to, and do you remember the 'script' that you follow?"--merited a civil, lengthy response.
• Having given lostwanderingsoul's questions to me an orderly, rational, and lengthy response which was far more civil and lengthy than he/she deserved as a self-acknowledged "lost seeker", meddling in a thread in an off-topic manner, I believe I may have put an end to his/her posting off-topic nonsense to me. If not, I may have to report the bugger.
• Lo and behold! What do I find the result is of my escorting lostwanderingsoul on a little trip down "Memory Lane" but that you, either having gone brain-dead or having nothing better to do, make it clear that you, too, need a trip down "Memory Lane." Now that I've taken you on such trip, I'm pleased to tell you that it's finished.

Cat and mouse games?....like I've got nothing better to do than to sit around and jerk your chain....

You obviously don't, ... or your memory is failing, you're knocking at my door again, and making a nuisance of yourself.

You don't like JW's.....I think we get it....

LOL! "we" who?
Even if what you say were true, ... and it isn't, why would that trouble you? Why on earth would you want me "to like" you, unless--of course--you think my liking you will make it easier to proselytize me, and that just ain't happening in this world.

P.S.

It seems to me that those who like to dish it out are the ones who whine the most when they are pressed about their own beliefs....

"Whine"? LOL! I whine about a lot of things, but I prefer to do it aloud and in person. One thing I don't whine about is being pressed about my own beliefs, and if you have proof to the contrary, bring it out, or stop slandering me: it's uncomely behavior from a JW.

And I have no idea what you might mean or who you're talking about when you say "those who like to dish it out".