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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The sun worship is seen very clearly right there in St Peter's Square.....
There is a Babylonian sun wheel with an obelisk in the centre that was imported from Egypt....a representation of the sun god Ra.

images
images


the-vatican-1.jpg


The origins of obelisks is stated here....in a quick Google search....
"The first obelisks were built by ancient Egyptians. They were carved from stone and placed in pairs at the entrance of temples as sacred objects that symbolized the sun god, Ra. It's believed that the shape symbolized a single sun ray. ... In fact, there are more Egyptian obelisks in Rome today than there are in Egypt."

Please explain.....:shrug:
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Sadly Dogknox20, you seem to have become incredibly arrogant with your loss for logic, and here in the south, we understand that it is unkind of us to continue on a course of expecting logic from those we find to be ill equipped.
Misty Woods Simple question....
QUESTION: "Did Jesus build on ROCK or on sand?" Did the Church Jesus established before he left earth; actually fail?! Again "Did Jesus lie?!" Are the scriptures a LIE!?

I can only presume you MUST reject the scriptures to say "Yes" so your reply is insult! Is it not arrogant to refuse to answer?!
Nothing about logic in my question it is all based on scripture! Don't feel bad; all protestants' must reject the scriptures or twist them to remain in protest All are spending effort trying to Restore Jesus' church! All spend effort trying to come to God' rescue and RE-Form the body Jesus that Jesus lost to Satan! AS IF...
Misty Woods
as if Satan had somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' holy body from Jesus! LOL All protestants must believe Jesus built on sand it's not just you!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
The sun worship is seen very clearly right there in St Peter's Square.....
There is a Babylonian sun wheel with an obelisk in the centre that was imported from Egypt....a representation of the sun god Ra.

images
images


the-vatican-1.jpg


The origins of obelisks is stated here....in a quick Google search....
"The first obelisks were built by ancient Egyptians. They were carved from stone and placed in pairs at the entrance of temples as sacred objects that symbolized the sun god, Ra. It's believed that the shape symbolized a single sun ray. ... In fact, there are more Egyptian obelisks in Rome today than there are in Egypt."

Please explain.....:shrug:

The obelisk standing at the Vatican was taken out of the "Roman Colosseum" where thousands of Christians were Martyred, it was placed at the Vatican in honor of their sacrifice to God! Catholic's only worship God!
Jesus built his Holy Catholic Church on ROCK it will never ever fail, his Holy Church was NOT built on sand!
Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH his Church to the end of the world! To say different you must reject the scriptures!

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The Holy Catholic Church is apostolic meaning; the Church Jesus built on rock has roots going back to the Apostles, the Church Jesus built is 2000 years old! The Church built on ROCK has a linage going back in an unbroken chain to the first Apostles going all they back to the KEY HOLDER!!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The obelisk standing at the Vatican was taken out of the "Roman Colosseum" where thousands of Christians were Martyred, it was placed at the Vatican in honor of their sacrifice to God!

Really? Where did you get that idea?.....

This is what I found on Google....
"Images of Saint Peter’s Square are frequently broadcast around the World. Not surprising really given that this is at the public heart of the Vatican City. Cameras tend to be directed towards St Peter’s Basilica and its iconic Renaissance dome, which dominates the skyline of Rome. Another monument also features prominently in these images; and that is the obelisk that stands at the centre of the square. An obelisk that was brought to Rome from Egypt by Caligula in 37 AD. But, why does the Vatican have a four thousand year old Egyptian obelisk?"

That is a good question.....it goes on to say....
"There are a number of Egyptian obelisks standing in Rome, in fact eight of them (a further five obelisks were made by Roman stonecutters). There are more erect obelisks from Egypt in Rome than there are anywhere else in the World, including Egypt. They were all brought to Rome by various Roman Emperors. This particular example, often called the Vatican Obelisk and sometimes Caligula’s Obelisk, is the only ancient Egyptian obelisk in Rome to have remained standing since Roman times."

Why does the Vatican Have an Egyptian Obelisk?

I believe that you have been misinformed.....or even worse....lied to.

Catholic's only worship God!
Which god is that?....certainly not the God and Father of Jesus Christ, who is no part of a trinity. (John 17:3; John 1:18)

Jesus built his Holy Catholic Church on ROCK it will never ever fail, his Holy Church was NOT built on sand!
Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH his Church to the end of the world! To say different you must reject the scriptures!

If that is what you want to believe, then nothing will convince you otherwise. Your choice is made, you will soon see if it was the right one. What will you do if it isn't?

I have explained to you a few times now about the "wheat and the weeds"......a parable given by Jesus Christ to show that Christianity would be sidetracked by false teachers and be led away from God in to false religious teachings and practices. The RCC is a product of that apostasy.....it never was "holy" from the outset. Its history should make you feel immense shame for the way those fake servants of God conducted themselves and the blood that was shed by them that continued into all the wars they ever supported in their nations. (Isaiah 1:15)

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Who was Jesus speaking to? His apostles....not one of them was Catholic. They were all Jewish Christians. None of them taught what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Holy Catholic Church is apostolic meaning; the Church Jesus built on rock has roots going back to the Apostles, the Church Jesus built is 2000 years old! The Church built on ROCK has a linage going back in an unbroken chain to the first Apostles going all they back to the KEY HOLDER!!

There is no unbroken lineage leading back to Peter. Peter was never a Pope.....there were no Popes in Christianity....."the Pontiff" is what the Popes were known as...but it is not a Christian title. It is a pagan Roman title...."Pontifex Maximus". The Roman world was not Christian.

Rome borrowed many gods from ancient Greece, along with their virtues and vices. For example, Venus and Flora were brazen prostitutes; Bacchus was a drunkard and reveler; Mercury was a highway robber; and Apollo was a seducer of women. It is reported that Jupiter, the father of the gods, committed adultery or incest with about 59 women! Since worshipers tend to reflect the conduct of their gods, is it any wonder that Roman emperors such as Tiberius, Nero, and Caligula led debauched lives as adulterers, fornicators, and murderers?

In their religion, the Romans incorporated gods from many traditions. They took up the worship of Mithras, the Persian god of light, who became their sun-god, and the Syrian goddess Atargatis (Ishtar, Easter). They converted the Grecian Artemis the huntress into Diana and had their own variations of the Egyptian Isis. They also adopted the Celtic triple goddesses of fertility. (Acts 19:23-28)

At hundreds of shrines and temples, they had a variety of priests, all of whom “came under the authority of the Pontifex Maximus [Supreme Pontiff], who was the head of the state religion.” (Atlas of the Roman World)

I am left wondering if you ever do any research outside of your church's doctrines or history....?
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Really? Where did you get that idea?.....


I am left wondering if you ever do any research outside of your church's doctrines or history....?
Deeje The One Holy Catholic Church is Apostolic.. All of the early Christians were Catholics! From Peter up to today there are 265 popes. Jesus left the first Shepherd.. Peter the keys to heaven!!
Wonder no more... Jesus made his Church on PETER not on sand it will never fail!
List of popes.... (Not enough room to print them all)
  1. St. Peter (32-67)
  2. St. Linus (67-76)
  3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  4. St. Clement I (88-97)
  5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
  6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
  7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
  8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
  9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
  16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
  17. St. Urban I (222-30)
  18. St. Pontian (230-35)
  19. St. Anterus (235-36)
  20. St. Fabian (236-50)
  21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
  22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
  23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
  24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
  25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
  26. St. Felix I (269-274)
  27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
  28. St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
  29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
  30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
  31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
  32. St. Miltiade
  33. etc
  34. etc
  35. etc.....
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
And where do you believe they received this purgatory idea?
Look it up. There is a long Wiki article on it, for instance. It's been standard Catholic theology for centuries.

One important point of difference between most Protestant denominations and the more traditional strands of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican) is the idea of apostolic succession of the priesthood. This promotes the idea that the successors of the Apostles, through the sacrament of ordination, have authority to elaborate further doctrines that may not be explicitly stated in scripture. The faith is thus alive and evolving, rather than consisting simply of studying endlessly the same texts written 2000 years ago.

Now, Protestants can argue with some justice that this idea is all too easy to abuse and has in fact been abused in the past, but it is the reason why you will find theological ideas in these older faiths that go beyond the words of scripture. (In point of fact, whether they admit it or not, virtually all Protestant faiths also have some theological principles and ideas that are not written as such in scripture - you can't really have any sort of Christianity without making some judgements on how to interpret scripture.)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Actually, I was raised up in multiple religious beliefs, such as Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, and Catholic. Due to my curiosity, I was allowed to be well rounded in knowledge of differing beliefs, and so I also became well acquainted with Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Mormons, and Adventists....... Most all were well meaning folks, however, I found that they put their faith in whatever their imperfect human pasture or priest insisted that they believe, rather, than what's actually written in the Scriptures.
Pasture?

Oh I see, you mean pastor.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
hummmm, objects of veneration . and if you were to find your self in a place of ,lets say, pagan worship ,would you say the statues / Idles were just objects of veneration ?
It doesn't depend on me how they would see them as it would mean nothing to us as Catholics.

have you ever seen some one grasping a smallish cross when praying ? maybe kissing it . humm
Yes, I've seen it, and it's a sign of respect for Jesus being on the cross. Do you have a problem with respect?

the copper snake that Moses put on a stick/pole ,was that a objects of veneration ,did it become one ??
That's quite a non-sequitur.

is this is this a pic of ventilation ?
If done according to Catholic teachings, yes. The statue is there as a reminder, much like we read the Bible as a reminder. Do you have a problem with reminders?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oh yes, the "sun worship" charge against Catholics has returned.:rolleyes: How pathetically dishonest.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Most all were well meaning folks, however, I found that they put their faith in whatever their imperfect human pasture or priest insisted that they believe, rather, than what's actually written in the Scriptures.
Then you weren't listening to what the pastors and priests actually say.

At every single mass, there are a minimum of two scripture readings from the Bible (three on weekends), not including brief readings from the Psalms, and then the homily (sermon) MUST reflect the readings from the Gospel and at least one of the other readings. This is part of Canon Law, thus the priest has no option but to do this.

Are you perfect? If you're not, then shame on you according to your own words above. Pastors and priests are not perfect either.

Thus, please stop lying (see the part of your post I underlined) as it puts into question other things you might say.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
And where do you believe they received this purgatory idea?

Hello Misty Woods I hope all is well.... You asked.. where do you believe they received this purgatory idea? I reply: From the scriptures!

1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

QUESTION: Is there sin that does NOT kill?! Is there sin that does kill sins that lead to death?! Clearly from the above verse there is!
Think a person dies with a sin that does NOT KILL.... He cannot enter heaven, scriptures tell us NOTHING impure can enter heaven! The person must be SACTIFYED before they can enter heaven! They will not go to hell because their sin did not kill their soul!
You should pray for them... you should pray and God will give them life.! Prayers for the dead will give them life in heaven!

Notice also the verse starts with "Brother of Sister"? This means those people that have been IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus, all those in Jesus are "Brother & Sisters of Jesus"!

1 Corinthians 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Misty Woods again the fires of the Holy Spirit will SACTIFY those people that are destined for heaven!
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
I

That's quite a non-sequitur.
do you mean you don't know what happened to that object ,(the copper snake) ,and why ?
how it became an object of ,let say ,extreme veneration .

ya should be aware, in your study of scripture, that there are a number of recorded situations where the people of ancient Israel were doing ''extreme veneration'' to different objects . obviously God was not impressed with their actions . why should God be impressed with yours when you are doing the same things ?
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
No and no. I don't know where this is.

Nor do I see its relevance to anything. If you are trying to make a point, I think you will need to make it, in words.
lets take to the metaphoric . are you metaphorically in the picture ? can you see your self doing what those people are doing ?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
lets take to the metaphoric . are you metaphorically in the picture ? can you see your self doing what those people are doing ?

Possibly, on a day of commemoration of Our Lady - though I avoid like the plague some of the more schmalzy exercises some people go in for. I would never go to Lourdes for example.:confused:

Catholics quite often ask saints to intercede for them, as an alternative to praying to God directly. Sometimes it feels less intimidating, or arrogant. And people can find it easier to relate to someone who is supposed to have had experience similar to their own. As I said before, visual representations of the saints, such as statues or pictures, are an aid to devotion. It can be hard to focus and blot out distractions and they can help.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
do you mean you don't know what happened to that object ,(the copper snake) ,and why ?
how it became an object of ,let say ,extreme veneration .
Now, stop and think for a minute: God tells Moses to put this copper serpent on his staff, and yet is that not a "graven image" according to JW teachings? The reality is that "graven image" is never defined in Torah, but what is clear is that we can't worship any such image-- thus we don't.

Secondly, your use of "extreme veneration" above is not conducive to Catholic teachings because it implies "idol worship", which is forbidden for us.

ya should be aware, in your study of scripture, that there are a number of recorded situations where the people of ancient Israel were doing ''extreme veneration'' to different objects . obviously God was not impressed with their actions .
Again, with "extreme veneration" are your words. [see above]

why should God be impressed with yours when you are doing the same things ?
He would be, but I think he'd be quite "impressed", but in a very negative way, when someone abandons honesty and adds words that change meanings, which you have done by adding the word "extreme".

It is "kosher" to question Catholic theology, which I do a lot, let me tell ya, but at least don't play disingenuous games by adding words and beliefs that we supposedly have that aren't really there. Being dishonest in the name of "Jehovah" isn't the most Christ-like thing to do, and if your JW masters tell you that doing as such is somehow moral, maybe look for a Christian denomination that teaches that the Truth is far more Christ-like than playing word games.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Catholics quite often ask saints to intercede for them, as an alternative to praying to God directly.
Which is called "the communion of saints" in the Apostle's Creed that was passed down from the apostles.

As you well know, the belief was and is that we can pray to God on behalf of the dead and they also can pray for us. Obviously, we can go directly to God as well with our prayers, which actually encompasses the vast majority of prayers said at mass as well. [I wrote this last part for others as a matter of clarification]
 
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