The Jesus Myth

[Oberon]

You think Xianity occurred in a vacuum, no, it's progression towards literalism and away from Gnoticism (and other versions of Xianity) was orchestrated by the literalists, who insisted Jesus was a real man-god that existed in physical reality, not just a spiritual Christ.

Yes, you read The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy, neither one a scholar, and the book was full of errors, so it is no wonder your conceptions of the origins of christianity, of gnosticism, and of paganism are so flawed.

Actually, the gnosticism wasn't a single, unified group. And they didn't deny that Jesus actually walked on earth. For them, he was here, walking around in 1st century palestine, preaching, teaching, and performing miracles. However, he only appeared to be human. The gnostics leaned even MORE towards viewing Jesus as god come down to earth, because they saw him as only divine.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, you read The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy, neither one a scholar, and the book was full of errors, so it is no wonder your conceptions of the origins of christianity, of gnosticism, and of paganism are so flawed.

Yes. I've come across that book myself.

Actually, the gnosticism wasn't a single, unified group. And they didn't deny that Jesus actually walked on earth. For them, he was here, walking around in 1st century palestine, preaching, teaching, and performing miracles. However, he only appeared to be human. The gnostics leaned even MORE towards viewing Jesus as god come down to earth, because they saw him as only divine.

Actually, I think that this was one of logician's better posts... because it does at least reflects a respectable position, held in Bauer's Orthodoxy and Heresy.

If Jesus was all divine in the opinion of the gnostics (and they came first), the argument that Jesus was simply a fabricated myth is at least a little tenable.

 

[McBell]

What do you find fraudulent about Jesus Sermon on the Mount?

Did it actually happen?

 

[Oberon]

If Jesus was all divine in the opinion of the gnostics (and they came first), the argument that Jesus was simply a fabricated myth is at least a little tenable.

Only if the gnostics viewed Jesus as another god (or divine figure) who came down at some point in the remote past like Zeus was said to have done. Even if one believes (as some experts have) that the gnostics came first, there is no indication anywhere that they believed that Jesus never existed on earth, walking around with his followers, teaching, etc, at the time and place the canonical gospels state. All the "gnostic" texts or quotes we possess feature a Jesus who may only appear to be human, but who is either definitely connected to a historical time and place, or no indication is given as to when he came. The problem is that those texts we possess which are the most ahistorical and mythical date long after the gospels. And for those which some believe pre-date the gospels (e.g. Thomas) we lack a historical framework present in the text in which to locate Jesus.

In other words, even accepting Bauer's position, it takes another leap beyond the evidence to suggest Jesus never existed. And Bauer was writing prior to the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts.

 

[Composer]

Again, and for the umpteeth time, in this thread the only one debating the legitimacy or lack thereof of the Gospel accounts is you.

You made the point also and I concurred.

Never mind, I'm sure you would just tell me she never existed either.

Well why ask the question in the first place?

Because you don't seem to be comprehending much of what's being said to you. In fact, you're not doing a very good job of keeping track of the points in your own posts.

Your opinion doesn't count for much so I'll take that with a pinch of salt according to your track record.

Odd then that you would claim that the religious leaders living at the time of Jesus supposed ministry---sometime during the 4th decade of the 1st cent.---would have had knowledge of him anyway.

Num. 24:17 was a part of their Torah.

you said:

You're saying they condemned a character in a book---the Gospels--- that hadn't been written yet and wouldn't be for another 40 years or so. Are you saying they were psychic?

They condemned the frauduent claims of the NT story book character Jesus.

e.g. #1: According to the Genesis-Eden Torah narrative, Man, being dependent on the Torah story book Tree of Life, was already subject to death before it is claimed that man sinned and brought death upon them. So some one / any one claiming that death was caused by sin, is a fraud for a number of reasons -

e.g. People were dying after the story book Jesus was crucified and before that, any ministry claiming that death was brought about by sin is a lie because of the Genesis-Eden Torah writings. (See #1: above)

Yes they did. Problem with your point is that, unless you're taking the Christian position on prophecy, there's nothing about Jesus in the Torah.

As #1: explains, any one claiming that death came by sins is a fraud!

The Genesis-Eden Torah narrative didn't need to name names, the spurious claims were sufficient to recognise the NT Jesus story book was a fraud.

Yes, but you seem to claiming they were refuting it some 40 years before it came along.

Of course they did. According to you they had 40 years to prepare in advance.

They new from their Torah story book how to recognise a fraud! (See #1 above)

 

[Oberon]

The bottom line remains, the literal existence of a man claiming to be the literal son of God is hearsay and an inferred argument by at best 2nd hand hearsay testimony.

1. We don't know if he claimed to be the literal son of god
2. Most of history, from ancient to modern, is not written by eyewitnesses.
3. What we do have is a certain amount of evidence. History is about the best way to explain that evidence. There is no way to explain the evidence we have without positing the historical existence of Jesus.

 

[Quagmire]

You made the point also and I concurred.

Well why ask the question in the first place?

It would take too long to explain, and no doubt be a waste of time.

Your opinion doesn't count for much so I'll take that with a pinch of salt according to your track record.

Learn the difference between an opinion and an observation.

Num. 24:17 was a part of their Torah.

So you're saying this was about Jesus?


24:17"I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near;
A star shall come forth from Jacob,
(A)A scepter shall rise from Israel,
(B)And shall crush through the forehead of Moab,
And tear down all the sons of [a]Sheth.

That's a really odd stance for a non-christian who doesn't even believe Jesus existed to take.

In fact, re-reading it, it would be a really odd stance for anybody---Christian or not--to take.

They condemned the frauduent claims of the NT story book character Jesus.

Yes, I heard you the first time. The question I'm asking you (again) is: how could religious leaders living around the middle of the 4th. decade of the 1st century condemn a book that hadn't been written yet?

It's a simple question.

e.g. #1: According to the Genesis-Eden Torah narrative, Man, being dependent on the Torah story book Tree of Life, was already subject to death before it is claimed that man sinned and brought death upon them. So some one / any one claiming that death was caused by sin, is a fraud for a number of reasons -

Yes, and according to the Betty Crocker cookbook, if you beat 6 eggs and stir lightly you can make an omlette that serves 3 people. What the hell does any of this have to do with whether of not Jesus existed?

And how does any of the above explain your contention that the religious leader of 1st. cent Judea somehow knew about the Gospels 4 decades before they were written?

e.g. People were dying after the story book Jesus was crucified and before that, any ministry claiming that death was brought about by sin is a lie because of the Genesis-Eden Torah writings. (See #1: above)

See my last post.

As #1: explains, any one claiming that death came by sins is a fraud!

But it doesn't explain your claim that they somehow they knew about the gospels 4 decades before they were written.

The Genesis-Eden Torah narrative didn't need to name names, the spurious claims were sufficient to recognise the NT Jesus story book was a fraud.

40 years before it was written? Just making sure you understand the question this time.

They new from their Torah story book how to recognise a fraud! (See #1 above)

And apparently, they also knew how to construct a time machine.


Can you really not see the absurdity of your point? You're claiming that people living circa 35 CE. were already condeming books that weren't even written until after 70 CE.

See the problem here?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. We don't know if he claimed to be the literal son of god

John 3:13 is interesting because there Jesus says he came down from heaven.

Also, at John 10:36 the Jews were saying Jesus blasphemest because Jesus said, "I am the Son of God".

The resurrected heavenly Jesus at Revelation 2:18 still refers to himself as the Son of God, and at Revelation 3:21 as God as his Father.
See also Rev 3:12; 14 B.

 

[S-word]

Prove any of this. Unless you support what you are saying, all that it is is some mumbo jumbo that does not have a place in any serious debate.

Abra Cadabra; I banish you to wander forevery though the mists of cyber space, begone you disbeliever.

What? And you believe that a feotus that is born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch ect, would be anything other that a lump of living meat unable to absorb any information from the environment around it, or communicate with anything in that environment, which it wouldn't even know was there.

Unless you can support what you are saying, all that you believe, that malformed feotus might become, is simply some mumbo jumbo that does not have a place in any serious debate.

 

[McBell]

Abra Cadabra; I banish you to wander forevery though the mists of cyber space, begone you disbeliever.

What? And you believe that a feotus that is born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch ect, would be anything other that a lump of living meat unable to absorb any information from the environment around it, or communicate with anything in that environment, which it wouldn't even know was there.

Unless you can support what you are saying, all that you believe, that malformed feotus might become, is simply some mumbo jumbo that does not have a place in any serious debate.

you are so the master of not actually replying to what is put to you.

 

[fallingblood]

Abra Cadabra; I banish you to wander forevery though the mists of cyber space, begone you disbeliever.

What? And you believe that a feotus that is born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch ect, would be anything other that a lump of living meat unable to absorb any information from the environment around it, or communicate with anything in that environment, which it wouldn't even know was there.

Unless you can support what you are saying, all that you believe, that malformed feotus might become, is simply some mumbo jumbo that does not have a place in any serious debate.

I'm coming to the belief that you do not actually believe anything you are saying and that S-Word simply is symbolizing what you are saying. The more and more you speak, the more and more it becomes obvious that you have no intention of debating and are either just hopelessly ignorant, or are an internet troll.

You do not support what you say, and you cannot answer questions in a logical manner, or you simply avoid them, as the case above shows.

 

[S-word]

you are so the master of not actually replying to what is put to you.

No mate I'm not the master at it, there was one who was much better than me, when they tried to trap him and condemn him of stirring up the populace against Rome, they asked the question if it was right for the Jews to pay tax to the Romans, or not; he was the master at answering a question, without actually replying to it. You know who I'm talking about don't you? The historical Jesus, who the majority of you godless people seem to believe is a myth. We gotta stay on topic mate, we gotta stay on topic.

 

[Composer]

It would take too long to explain, and no doubt be a waste of time.

Then thanks for not wasting my time with your empty explanations you can't even bother to give.

Learn the difference between an opinion and an observation.

I give my opinion based upon the opinions of others who ' claim ' their opinions are based upon their story book observations. But under my scrutiny they fail to legitimately manifest their claims. e.g. the trinity doctrine is supposed to be legitimately story book based but under scrutiny, isn't.

So you're saying this was about Jesus?

24:17"I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near;
A star shall come forth from Jacob,
(A)A scepter shall rise from Israel,
(B)And shall crush through the forehead of Moab,
And tear down all the sons of [a]Sheth.

I am merely pointing out story book text and the observations made later by others about it.

e.g. IF it had any credibility it could be reasoned that this alleged ' star ' was the story book Jesus aka Lucifer.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16. (Source: http://lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml)

That's a really odd stance for a non-christian who doesn't even believe Jesus existed to take.

In fact, re-reading it, it would be a really odd stance for anybody---Christian or not--to take.

I assess the story book text and what others believe about it. Invariably it doesn't match up to their ideology and my scrutiny points that out to them.

Yes, I heard you the first time. The question I'm asking you (again) is: how could religious leaders living around the middle of the 4th. decade of the 1st century condemn a book that hadn't been written yet?

It's a simple question.

i) Please re-read my previous posts I will not repeat them ad nauseum.

ii) See also #f1: below

Can you really not see the absurdity of your point? You're claiming that people living circa 35 CE. were already condeming books that weren't even written until after 70 CE.

See the problem here?

#f1: The problem is yours.

I have made it repeatedly clear e.g. Those contemporary at the time of the NT story book documents appearing, condemned the frauduent claims of the NT story book character Jesus.

e.g. #1: According to the Genesis-Eden Torah narrative, Man, being dependent on the Torah story book Tree of Life, was already subject to death before it is claimed that man sinned and brought death upon them.

So some one / any one claiming that death was caused by sin, is a fraud for a number of reasons -

e.g. People were dying after the story book Jesus was crucified and before that, any ministry claiming that death was brought about by sin is a lie because of the Genesis-Eden Torah writings. (See #1: above) (Source: Page15#145)

Of course those Pharisees and Sadducees (Sanhedrin) could condemn text that hadn't yet been written based upon the following from their Torah however IF anything were to be written, then it could rightly be condemned -

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2) KJV story book

Those that were later to examine the additional text against their Torah could also determine IF the claims made in that new text was legitimate.


The NT Jesus DID NOT manifest the teachings of the Torah because a) They added to God's Word according to Deut. 4:2 and b) the NT Jesus story book text claimed that death was brought about by man sinning and this Jesus could atone for that. This was a lie according to the Torah (Genesis) because being dependent on the Tree of Life, man was already subject to death BEFORE it was claimed that he brought death upon himself for his sins.

 

[S-word]

Then thanks for not wasting my time with your empty explanations you can't even bother to give.


I give my opinion based upon the opinions of others who ' claim ' their opinions are based upon their story book observations. But under my scrutiny they fail to legitimately manifest their claims. e.g. the trinity doctrine is supposed to be legitimately story book based but under scrutiny, isn't.


I am merely pointing out story book text and the observations made later by others about it.

e.g. IF it had any credibility it could be reasoned that this alleged ' star ' was the story book Jesus aka Lucifer.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16. (Source: http://lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml)


I assess the story book text and what others believe about it. Invariably it doesn't match up to their ideology and my scrutiny points that out to them.


i) Please re-read my previous posts I will not repeat them ad nauseum.

ii) See also #f1: below


#f1: The problem is yours.

I have made it repeatedly clear e.g. Those contemporary at the time of the NT story book documents appearing, condemned the frauduent claims of the NT story book character Jesus.

e.g. #1: According to the Genesis-Eden Torah narrative, Man, being dependent on the Torah story book Tree of Life, was already subject to death before it is claimed that man sinned and brought death upon them.

So some one / any one claiming that death was caused by sin, is a fraud for a number of reasons -

e.g. People were dying after the story book Jesus was crucified and before that, any ministry claiming that death was brought about by sin is a lie because of the Genesis-Eden Torah writings. (See #1: above) (Source: Page15#145)

Of course those Pharisees and Sadducees (Sanhedrin) could condemn text that hadn't yet been written based upon the following from their Torah however IF anything were to be written, then it could rightly be condemned -

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2) KJV story book

Those that were later to examine the additional text against their Torah could also determine IF the claims made in that new text was legitimate.


The NT Jesus DID NOT manifest the teachings of the Torah because a) They added to God's Word according to Deut. 4:2 and b) the NT Jesus story book text claimed that death was brought about by man sinning and this Jesus could atone for that. This was a lie according to the Torah (Genesis) because being dependent on the Tree of Life, man was already subject to death BEFORE it was claimed that he brought death upon himself for his sins.

In referrence to the useless shepherd that God rose up to guide his people after he had been paid his majestic wage of thirty peices of silver, as paid for the earthly being Jesus through whom the Lord revealed himself. See Zechariah 11: 12-17.

O! You shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent You out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc. If the spiritual war of words cannot be won, then will the Lord himself descend and stand on the Mount of Olives and go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past.

Numbers 24: 17, “A king, like a bright star, will arise in that Nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. The Nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.”
It will be on that great day of tribulation that the Lord gathers all the nations around Jerusalem, Zechariah 12: 10, and they will look upon me and see the one who they pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child etc.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”


The Lord will come to fight for his people Israel as he has fought in times past and from within the inner most sanctuary of his tabernacle which is the body of mankind, (For the kingdom of God is within you) he will fight the enemies of Israel; those Nations who surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea. The Lord will throw them into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while still standing.

Then all those who sing and dance with their eyes and hands raised to the heavens in worship of a god they neither know or understand, can kiss goodbye to their great cathedrals of Marble, stone and crystal, for all the surviving Nations, will send their representatives, who will go up each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, to worship the Lord as King and woe betide those who refuse to do so, See Zechariah 14.

 

[Composer]

O! You shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent You out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc. If the spiritual war of words cannot be won, then will the Lord himself descend and stand on the Mount of Olives and go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past.

Numbers 24: 17, “A king, like a bright star, will arise in that Nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. The Nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.”
It will be on that great day of tribulation that the Lord gathers all the nations around Jerusalem, Zechariah 12: 10, and they will look upon me and see the one who they pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child etc.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”


The Lord will come to fight for his people Israel as he has fought in times past and from within the inner most sanctuary of his tabernacle which is the body of mankind, he will fight the enemies of Israel; those Nations who surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea. The Lord will throw them into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while still standing.
Then all those who sing and dance with their eyes and hands raised to the heavens in worship of a god they neither know or understand, can kiss goodbye to their great cathedrals of Marble, stone and crystal, for all the surviving Nations, will send their representatives, who will go up each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, to worship the Lord as King and woe betide those who refuse to do so, See Zechariah 14.

Your story book tales are wasted on me!

Your story book tales are wasted on every one including yourself, unless fantasy is to your liking?

 

[S-word]

Your story book tales are wasted on me!

Your story book tales are wasted on every one including yourself, unless fantasy is to your liking?

Good heavens mate, don't you realise that I've known that, from your very first post, and realise that all biblical information is wasted on you, I merely post in response to your rediculious statements in order that others may determine between the truth and the rubbish you present.

 

[S-word]

I'm coming to the belief that you do not actually believe anything you are saying and that S-Word simply is symbolizing what you are saying. The more and more you speak, the more and more it becomes obvious that you have no intention of debating and are either just hopelessly ignorant, or are an internet troll.

You do not support what you say, and you cannot answer questions in a logical manner, or you simply avoid them, as the case above shows.

Matey you can believe what ever you choose to believe, as to your statement that I do not support what you say, and cannot answer questions in a logical manner, anyone reading all my posts in response to your questions will see that I have supported everything that I have said with Biblical evidence, the fact that you reject all biblical statement as non-evidence is your lose matey,

If as you have proven, you are unable to debate scripture, then for your own benefit, find a subject about which you know something, there you may have some success and not be such a bitter and sacastic person. Have a good one Matey.

 

[Composer]

Good heavens mate, don't you realise that I've known that, from your very first post, and realise that all biblical information is wasted on you, I merely post in response to your rediculious statements in order that others may determine between the truth and the rubbish you present.

Well the Truth and facts are that it is only YOU and those like you that quote story book tales as legitimate truth when you have zero = zip = 0 to legitimately support you and those like you and for my 50 years of searching those like you can't even legitimately get your story book tales to legitimately support your story book religious ideologies. The trinitarians are a classic example of frauds and ALL story book Jesus believers are frauds to boot, and in all my 50 years of searching not a single alleged genuine Jesus believer ever legitimately manifested the promises their story book Jesus has already allegedly given to a so called genuine believer to demonstrate their alleged genuine faith. The test of faith is a test of their faith, not a test of their God, for those promises have allegedly already been given.

My tally so far: Genuine story book Jesus believers that legitimately manifest the test of their faith and story book Jesus' promises = 0
Fraudulent and pretend Jesus believers that make a myriad of pathetic and fraudulent claims as to why they fail = 100%

You are welcome to try to legitimately break my 50 year record?

 

[Composer]

Matey you can believe what ever you choose to believe, as to your statement that I do not support what you say, and cannot answer questions in a logical manner, anyone reading all my posts in response to your questions will see that I have supported everything that I have said with Biblical evidence, the fact that you reject all biblical statement as non-evidence is your lose matey,

If as you have proven, you are unable to debate scripture, then for your own benefit, find a subject about which you know something, there you may have some success and not be such a bitter and sacastic person. Have a good one Matey.

Biblical evidence = 0 credibility until such time as it is proven otherwise!

So far the only losers are you story book pretend Jesus believers that fail to legitimately manifest the story book promises demonstrating your alleged faith.

 

[footprints]

Biblical evidence = 0 credibility until such time as it is proven otherwise!

So far the only losers are you story book pretend Jesus believers that fail to legitimately manifest the story book promises demonstrating your alleged faith.

The students (in this case christians) should never be held accountable for the quality of the teachers (in this case the Pope, Cardinals, Ministers, Priests et al).