The JW's claim Jesus was not son of Adam.

[LightofTruth]

The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

 

[Ellen Brown]

The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

Sigh.

 

[danieldemol]

The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

Well I’m not sure if it’s scriptural to say this, but as a son of Mary who is allegedly according to some people’s perception a descendent of what they believe to be the first human (Adam) this would technically make Jesus a son of Adam through His mother.

 

[Deeje]

The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

Since that was in my post, I will offer the scriptural basis for it.

Galatians 3:13...
"Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake." (Deuteronomy 21:33)

Christ's sacrifice paid a price...the price that was set by God's law.

Matthew 20:28...
"Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom [Greek, lyʹtron] in exchange for many.”

"lyʹtron" is "the price for redeeming, ransom", according to Strongs.

What is a ransom?
If a kidnapper demanded a ransom for the return of the one they took captive, the price set by the kidnapper would be in accordance with what they believed the kidnapped person was worth.

Since God's redemption law was to pay a set price for what was to be redeemed, the debtor could not offer less and they would never have offered more.

God's law stated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life" (literally "soul for soul") (Deuteronomy 19:21)
As an example Exodus 21:28-32 speaks about a bull that gores a person to death. If the owner knew of the bull’s disposition but did not take proper precautions, he could be made to pay, for the life of the one killed, with his own! Yet, what if the owner was only partially responsible? He would still need to provide compensation for the person's death. Appointed judges could impose a ransom, or fine, as a redemption price.

The man who paid the ransom for the human race had to be a perfect human of flesh and blood—the exact equal of Adam. (Romans 5:14) A spirit creature or a “God-man” would not balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone who was not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer “a corresponding ransom,” one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6) The Greek word here used, an·tiʹly·tron, appears nowhere else in the Bible. It is related to the word that Jesus used for ransom (lyʹtron) at Mark 10:45.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology points out that an·tiʹly·tron ‘accentuates the notion of exchange.’

By voluntarily sacrificing his life, this “last Adam” could pay the wage for the sin of the “first man Adam.”(1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 6:23)

Incidentally, did you know that Adam is identified as "a son of God"? (Luke 3:38) He rightly held that title because he was a direct creation of God...perfect in every way. There was no defect of sin in him until he disobeyed his Creator.

 

[LightofTruth]

Well I’m not sure if it’s scriptural to say this, but as a son of Mary who is allegedly according to some people’s perception a descendent of what they believe to be the first human (Adam) this would technically make Jesus a son of Adam through His mother.

Yes. According to the Scripture Jesus has genealogy which is traced back to Adam which makes Jesus a son of Adam.
Jesus is also the promised seed/child of Abraham. According to Scripture

 

[LightofTruth]

Since that was in my post, I will offer the scriptural basis for it.

Galatians 3:13...
"Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake." (Deuteronomy 21:33)

Christ's sacrifice paid a price...the price that was set by God's law.

Matthew 20:28...
"Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom [Greek, lyʹtron] in exchange for many.”

"lyʹtron" is "the price for redeeming, ransom", according to Strongs.

What is a ransom?
If a kidnapper demanded a ransom for the return of the one they took captive, the price set by the kidnapper would be in accordance with what they believed the kidnapped person was worth.

Since God's redemption law was to pay a set price for what was to be redeemed, the debtor could not offer less and they would never have offered more.

God's law stated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life" (literally "soul for soul") (Deuteronomy 19:21)
As an example Exodus 21:28-32 speaks about a bull that gores a person to death. If the owner knew of the bull’s disposition but did not take proper precautions, he could be made to pay, for the life of the one killed, with his own! Yet, what if the owner was only partially responsible? He would still need to provide compensation for the person's death. Appointed judges could impose a ransom, or fine, as a redemption price.

The man who paid the ransom for the human race had to be a perfect human of flesh and blood—the exact equal of Adam. (Romans 5:14) A spirit creature or a “God-man” would not balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone who was not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer “a corresponding ransom,” one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6) The Greek word here used, an·tiʹly·tron, appears nowhere else in the Bible. It is related to the word that Jesus used for ransom (lyʹtron) at Mark 10:45.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology points out that an·tiʹly·tron ‘accentuates the notion of exchange.’

By voluntarily sacrificing his life, this “last Adam” could pay the wage for the sin of the “first man Adam.”(1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 6:23)

Incidentally, did you know that Adam is identified as "a son of God"? (Luke 3:38) He rightly held that title because he was a direct creation of God...perfect in every way. There was no defect of sin in him until he disobeyed his Creator.

The question is concerned with your denial that Jesus was a son of Adam.
Please show from Scripture that Jesus is not a son of Adam.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes. According to the Scripture Jesus has genealogy which is traced back to Adam which makes Jesus a son of Adam.
Jesus is also the promised seed/child of Abraham. According to Scripture

Some utter words they neither understand, nor do they have authority. We, all of us are sons and daughters of Adam. Sigh !

 

[LightofTruth]

The RCC fell for the same false idea the JW's fell for. But instead of denying Jesus was a son of Adam they invented something they call "the immaculate conception".

 

[LightofTruth]

Some utter words they neither understand, nor do they have authority. We, all of us are sons and daughters of Adam. Sigh !

According to Scripture, we are. And so was Jesus.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Through Mary (as his natural mother), he had biological lineage to Adam.....

“Following Jesus’ genealogy, the chart indicates Mary was his natural mother, although Jehovah himself continued to be his Father by having arranged the human conception in such a way through the miraculous intervention of the holy spirit as to effect His Son’s transfer from a prehuman heavenly existence to that of becoming born a natural man. This enabled Jesus to be called both the “Son of God” and the “Son of man.” Mary’s father being Heli of the house of David through David’s son Nathan, Jesus received a natural right to the throne of David through Mary. However, as shown in the previous article, since Joseph legally adopted Jesus as his firstborn son, Jesus thereby acquired additionally legal right to the throne, because Joseph’s father Jacob was a direct regal descendant of King David through Solomon and all the reigning kings of Judah.”

From...Part 2—Relatives of Jesus — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[LightofTruth]

Through Mary (as his natural mother), he had biological lineage to Adam.....

“Following Jesus’ genealogy, the chart indicates Mary was his natural mother, although Jehovah himself continued to be his Father by having arranged the human conception in such a way through the miraculous intervention of the holy spirit as to effect His Son’s transfer from a prehuman heavenly existence to that of becoming born a natural man. This enabled Jesus to be called both the “Son of God” and the “Son of man.” Mary’s father being Heli of the house of David through David’s son Nathan, Jesus received a natural right to the throne of David through Mary. However, as shown in the previous article, since Joseph legally adopted Jesus as his firstborn son, Jesus thereby acquired additionally legal right to the throne, because Joseph’s father Jacob was a direct regal descendant of King David through Solomon and all the reigning kings of Judah.”

From...Part 2—Relatives of Jesus — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Wow! Jesus was a "natural man". imagine that!

That's what I've been saying!

So how it that a natural flesh and blood man can not be like all other natural flesh and blood man in reference to their nature?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Wow! Jesus was a "natural man". imagine that!

That's what I've been saying!

So how it that a natural flesh and blood man can not be like all other natural flesh and blood man in reference to their nature?

Some faiths say he was fully man and fully God. In my opinion only those who do not understand nor truly worship would say that. I'll warn you that despite having been Evangelical Christian for 33 years, some here believe me to be Muslim because they are not able to comprehend what an Abrahamic Religionist is.

It is my opinion that as the End approaches, Christianity, Islam, and perhaps Judaism will pass away. We'll worship God. According to the four Gospels, I see Jesus as having done what the Father instructed him to do. In my opinion "I and the Father are one" is a careless translation and means that he and the Father agree. Greater detail in belief is not possible for me because I don't know. We should never avoid admitting that we do not know all.

 

[74x12]

The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

Jesus is Son of Adam from His mother Mary. Jesus is the "seed of the woman" prophesied to bruise the serpent's head.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Wow! Jesus was a "natural man". imagine that!

That's what I've been saying!

So how it that a natural flesh and blood man can not be like all other natural flesh and blood man in reference to their nature?

Life, for most creatures, is given by the father. The father is the sire.. In Jesus’ case, His life came not from Joseph, but from Jehovah God Himself. So Jesus was sinless. But that was the only difference between Jesus and other humans.

Does that answer the question? (Not sure what it was.)

 

[Deeje]

The question is concerned with your denial that Jesus was a son of Adam.
Please show from Scripture that Jesus is not a son of Adam.

Are you serious? No son of Adam can be sinless. All of Adam's offspring inherited sin. (Romans 5:12)

Hebrews 4:14-15...
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin."

Hebrews 7:26....
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens."

1 Peter 2:22...
"He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."

Luke 3:23...
"When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli...."

Jesus was not the son of Joseph and he was born through Mary but was not genetically related to either of them, otherwise he could not have been born "sinless"...the exact equivalent of Adam. The DNA of the human race was now defective...every single human born from Adam was sentenced to death in their genetics. Nothing can stop humans from dying except the ransom provided by God in the human we call Jesus Christ who came from heaven to be born as a human child on earth. As a perfect man, Jesus would never have aged or died of natural causes. He died because he was murdered.

All that is required to be Jewish to Jews is to be born of a Jewish mother....Jesus was.

It won't matter how I explain it...if you have your mind made up....

Now you can show me from scripture that Jesus WAS a "son of Adam"....

 

[LightofTruth]

Life, for most creatures, is given by the father. The father is the sire.. In Jesus’ case, His life came not from Joseph, but from Jehovah God Himself. So Jesus was sinless. But that was the only difference between Jesus and other humans.

Does that answer the question? (Not sure what it was.)

My question is in reference to the nature of man. I understand Jesus was sinless in that he personally committed no sin. However, there is what the Scripture calls "Sinful flesh" or "sin in the flesh" as dwelling in man. And it also tells us that the desires of the flesh are what gives birth to personally committing sin which is transgression of the law of God.
So, if the natural flesh and blood man all have this same flesh how is that Jesus did not if the Scripture says he did?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[LightofTruth]

Are you serious? No son of Adam can be sinless. All of Adam's offspring inherited sin. (Romans 5:12)

Hebrews 4:14-15...
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin."

Hebrews 7:26....
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens."

1 Peter 2:22...
"He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."

Luke 3:23...
"When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli...."

Jesus was not the son of Joseph and he was born through Mary but was not genetically related to either of them, otherwise he could not have been born "sinless"...the exact equivalent of Adam. The DNA of the human race was now defective...every single human born from Adam was sentenced to death in their genetics. Nothing can stop humans from dying except the ransom provided by God in the human we call Jesus Christ who came from heaven to be born as a human child on earth. As a perfect man, Jesus would never have aged or died of natural causes. He died because he was murdered.

All that is required to be Jewish to Jews is to be born of a Jewish mother....Jesus was.

It won't matter how I explain it...if you have your mind made up....

Now you can show me from scripture that Jesus WAS a "son of Adam"....

Hebrews 7:26 refers to Jesus AFTER his resurrection. For that is when he became High Priest.

 

[LightofTruth]

Are you serious? No son of Adam can be sinless. All of Adam's offspring inherited sin. (Romans 5:12)

Hebrews 4:14-15...
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin."

Hebrews 7:26....
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens."

1 Peter 2:22...
"He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."

Luke 3:23...
"When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli...."

Jesus was not the son of Joseph and he was born through Mary but was not genetically related to either of them, otherwise he could not have been born "sinless"...the exact equivalent of Adam. The DNA of the human race was now defective...every single human born from Adam was sentenced to death in their genetics. Nothing can stop humans from dying except the ransom provided by God in the human we call Jesus Christ who came from heaven to be born as a human child on earth. As a perfect man, Jesus would never have aged or died of natural causes. He died because he was murdered.

All that is required to be Jewish to Jews is to be born of a Jewish mother....Jesus was.

It won't matter how I explain it...if you have your mind made up....

Now you can show me from scripture that Jesus WAS a "son of Adam"....

All Jesus needed to do was to be obedient to his God and lay down his life. It required him to resist all the temptations of man as one who was a natural flesh and blood man of the same nature as all the rest.
When jesus did that, God accepted his sacrifice and condemned the sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3). Now all those who are IN Christ have passed from death to life and there is no longer condemnation for them by being of the same flesh as Adam.

 

[Deeje]

All Jesus needed to do was to be obedient to his God and lay down his life. It required him to resist all the temptations of man as one who was a natural flesh and blood man of the same nature as all the rest.

Then why did Jesus need to come from heaven to become a human? Any human could have provided what you are suggesting. No other humans could offer themselves as a sacrifice because every other humans was contaminated by the sin of Adam. (Romans 5:12) It needed another "Adam" to pay for what the first Adam lost. Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he was the equivalent of the first Adam. The ransom demanded equivalency.

When jesus did that, God accepted his sacrifice and condemned the sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3). Now all those who are IN Christ have passed from death to life and there is no longer condemnation for them by being of the same flesh as Adam.

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." (John 1:14)

Jesus was the Word who became flesh. He was with his Father in the beginning and was sent to earth on a mission that no other human could fulfill......no other human was without sin. This isn't the committing of sin, but the sinful nature inherited from Adam. The one Paul said he was fighting.

He wrote....
"I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." (Romans 7:22-25)

Jesus did not need to fight a sinful nature because he didn't have one. This is why he had to come from heaven.

 

[LightofTruth]

Then why did Jesus need to come from heaven to become a human? Any human could have provided what you are suggesting. No other humans could offer themselves as a sacrifice because every other humans was contaminated by the sin of Adam. (Romans 5:12) It needed another "Adam" to pay for what the first Adam lost. Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he was the equivalent of the first Adam. The ransom demanded equivalency.



"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." (John 1:14)

Jesus was the Word who became flesh. He was with his Father in the beginning and was sent to earth on a mission that no other human could fulfill......no other human was without sin. This isn't the committing of sin, but the sinful nature inherited from Adam. The one Paul said he was fighting.

He wrote....
"I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." (Romans 7:22-25)

Jesus did not need to fight a sinful nature because he didn't have one. This is why he had to come from heaven.

Can you at least admit that the flesh of man is sinful?