The Last Supper Painting

[Ellen Brown]

Ok. To me it's just like the equally absent infant baptism in scriptures. It exists only in the mibds of men as conjecture, without the slightest bit of evidence that it actually occurred. To me there would be no need to look for evidence that he wasn't, until someone showed me evidence that he was (evidence not conjecture).

What? I do not understand. Someone is saying that The Christ was baptized as an infant, or that it is a suitable way to do it? Some denominations do not baptize until they reach the age of accountability, about eight years old. I support that. To me, infant baptism is entirely invalid.

 

[e.r.m.]

What? I do not understand. Someone is saying that The Christ was baptized as an infant, or that it is a suitable way to do it? Some denominations do not baptize until they reach the age of accountability, about eight years old. I support that. To me, infant baptism is entirely invalid.

I agree with you that infant baptism is entirely invalid. What I was saying is that the proponents of infant baptism use only 'in between the lines conjecture' to support their idea that infant baptism occurred in the New Testament Church. It is the same level of evidence that I've seen used to support the idea that Jesus was married.

 

[e.r.m.]

I have a dear friend who is a Pastor of a church that seats around 200 people twice on Sunday. We went to Kenya and Israel in a group of around 30 people in 2001. Every time I drive up to see him, I fear for him and pray that he does not get entangled in a sinful activity. I do not anticipate ever being an "officially recognized" spiritual leader, and am not jealous of his success. Mashallah, he has a sweet and gentle spirit.

The Mormons have a very fitting term called Priestcraft for paid spiritual leaders, and while I am not Mormon, I find the term to be fitting. Now days, there is a great deal of abuse from paid spiritual leaders, and I find it detrimental to the body of Christ. In paid Pastorate, people can easily "sit the pews" and are free from critical thinking and taking responsibility for themselves. I believe, as the Bereans apparently did, that we each should pray and study a significant period each day. AND, perhaps a large part of that is sitting quietly, or kneeling, to hear that voice which guides us.

I'm glad you have people you can still trust in.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I agree with you that infant baptism is entirely invalid. What I was saying is that the proponents of infant baptism use only 'in between the lines conjecture' to support their idea that infant baptism occurred in the New Testament Church. It is the same level of evidence that I've seen used to support the idea that Jesus was married.

I can't refute your argument. It is a question that cannot be resolved in this reality.

 

[e.r.m.]

I can't refute your argument. It is a question that cannot be resolved in this reality.

I can be at peace with that

 

[Valjean]

So Jesus's wife would hold the same status as a donkey and household accoutrements. Wow!

Yes, that's pretty much my point. Unfortunately women in many societies are, in fact, little more than livestock or household slaves. Even in our Western societies female equality is a new idea, and in some Middle Eastern societies women are still treated as eternal children.
If unrelated visitors to a man's house wouldn't be expected even to meet his wives, why should you expect them be casually mentioned in literature, if they weren't materially relevant in some way?

 

[Valjean]

From my own inexpert studies of History, I seem to remember that over the ages, the power of women waxed and waned as time passed as seems indicated in the Bible. As is indicated in the Islam, it was the support of Aisha who did the background work to ensure that the notes of Muhammad PBUH were not lost. It is often the case that "behind every successful man is a good woman". Even today, human culture attempts to denigrate the role of women.

Exactly. Women were generally allowed autonomy only inasmuch as it was practical.

 

[metis]

It doesn't mention his donkey or any of his household accoutrements, either.

Well, I would suggest that a wife might be more important than them.

 

[metis]

Matthew 12:40, Luke 9:22. Yes He did.

A lot depends on how one looks at the scriptures, especially in regards to objectivity v subjectivity plus the issue of inerrancy.

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, that's pretty much my point. Unfortunately women in many societies are, in fact, little more than livestock or household slaves. Even in our Western societies female equality is a new idea, and in some Middle Eastern societies women are still treated as eternal children.
If unrelated visitors to a man's house wouldn't be expected even to meet his wives, why should you expect them be casually mentioned in literature, if they weren't materially relevant in some way?

You stretch that to an unrealistic degree, given all the passages I've cited. There are numerous situations where Jesus having a wife would have been forced out of the silent background, if he had one, most notably at his crucifixion, burial, resurrection, the group praying in Acts 1, and 1 Corinthians 9:5. The more you look into the detail of Jesus's alleged marriage, the less likely it becomes.

 

[e.r.m.]

A lot depends on how one looks at the scriptures, especially in regards to objectivity v subjectivity plus the issue of inerrancy.

Yes, if one takes it for what it says, then He did know. If one takes the road of doubting what is written, then that's a different discussion for another thread.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes, that's pretty much my point. Unfortunately women in many societies are, in fact, little more than livestock or household slaves. Even in our Western societies female equality is a new idea, and in some Middle Eastern societies women are still treated as eternal children.
If unrelated visitors to a man's house wouldn't be expected even to meet his wives, why should you expect them be casually mentioned in literature, if they weren't materially relevant in some way?

Unfortunately, or perhaps as God mandated, Genesis 3:16 still plays out in the lives of women.

 

[metis]

Yes, if one takes it for what it says, then He did know. If one takes the road of doubting what is written, then that's a different discussion for another thread.

Agreed. The one thing one quickly learns when studying history is that what we read is what someone's perception of what supposedly happened.

 

[e.r.m.]

metis,
Agreed, historically speaking. I was reading an article on Huldrych Zwingli once and I misattributed a lot of what the author said, to Zwingli. Actually the way the author wrote it, on the second go-around I had to pay close attention to distinguish the two. I was taken aback at how many liberties the author had taken on Zwingli's behalf.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Agreed. The one thing one quickly learns when studying history is that what we read is what someone's perception of what supposedly happened.

"History is written by the winner".

 

[Ellen Brown]

metis,
Agreed, historically speaking. I was reading an article on Huldrych Zwingli once and I misattributed a lot of what the author said, to Zwingli. Actually the way the author wrote it, on the second go-around I had to pay close attention to distinguish the two. I was taken aback at how many liberties the author had taken on Zwingli's behalf.

I'm not sure what is important about this Reformation. I thought that Martin Luther was heavily involved in it? Were they contemporaries?

 

[e.r.m.]

I'm not sure what is important about this Reformation. I thought that Martin Luther was heavily involved in it? Were they contemporaries?

Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin were the top three. Zwingli freed (I think Geneva) from Catholic rule. Calvin later led a theocracy in that city.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin were the top three. Zwingli freed (I think Geneva) from Catholic rule. Calvin later led a theocracy in that city.

Sort of feeling like Christianity could use some more Reformation.

 

[e.r.m.]

Sort of feeling like Christianity could use some more Reformation.

No church is perfect, but I think some are closer than others.

 

[Valjean]

I'm not sure what is important about this Reformation. I thought that Martin Luther was heavily involved in it? Were they contemporaries?

Luther's theses initiated more than a hundred years of bloodshed, political upheaval, war and civil war.