"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

[Subduction Zone]

Please follow the conversation you asked what is real that we cannot test for?

No, those are your claims. You need to justify them.

 

[3rdAngel]

No, those are your claims. You need to justify them.

No thanks. You asked me a for a list of real things that science does not know the answers to and cannot test for. You were provided an example list here linked. If you have no science background I am not doing your homework for you. If you disagree with that example list and you believe science knows the answers to those examples and can test for them then you prove me wrong. Here is your big chance. Off you go show me where science has carried out experiments to find the answers for those questions. This OP though is on "the Lords day" and a challenge to prove from scripture alone that "the Lords day" is Sunday. It seems most people here want to talk about anything accept the OP sadly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No thanks. You asked me a for a list of real things that science does not know the answers to and cannot test for. You were provided that list here linked. If you have no science background I am not doing your homework for you. If you disagree with that example list and you believe science knows the answers to those examples and can test for them then you prove me wrong. Here is your big chance. Off you go show me where science has carried out experiments to find the answers for those questions.

Then I can dismiss them with a handwave. Hitchen's razor applies. It looks as if you copied and pasted from a dishonest site.

So one more time: Those were your claims. You bear the burden of proof.

EDIT: Or there is one more possibility. You list was also presented as a Gish Gallop. Refute one and they are all refuted. Would you accept that?

 

[3rdAngel]

Then I can dismiss them with a handwave. Hitchen's razor applies. It looks as if you copied and pasted from a dishonest site.
So one more time: Those were your claims. You bear the burden of proof.EDIT: Or there is one more possibility. You list was also presented as a Gish Gallop. Refute one and they are all refuted. Would you accept that?

I am sorry I am no longer interested in having a discussion with you so we will agree to disagree. Take Care.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am sorry I am no longer interested in have a discussion with you so we will agree to disagree. Take Care.

That is because you can't support your claims and know that I can support mine.


If you ever want to learn I can help you with the basics. Then you might be able to find valid sites that support your arguments.

 

[Soapy]

In India it became the lingua franca. Not due to England forcing it upon everyone, but because there are so many dialects of Hindu that there were two many to learn to communicate all across the country. Instead of having to learn countless dialects to talk to other Indians they only had to learn one language.

Sounds like an inverse Tower of Babel scenario!

 

[3rdAngel]

That is because you can't support your claims and know that I can support mine.If you ever want to learn I can help you with the basics. Then you might be able to find valid sites that support your arguments.

Sorry I do not believe you. Thanks anyway.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sounds like an inverse Tower of Babel scenario!

Exactly. It is also reverse because we know that this one happened.

 

[3rdAngel]

Gelling back to the OP is anyone able to prove from the scriptures that Sunday is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10? I am guessing that is a no?

 

[blü 2]

It is indeed possible to know a few facts. For example not too long ago no one understood gravity because they did not know what it was and could not see it the same with cosmic radiation, electricity or sound waves. Now these have always existed it was just that we had never seen them or knew about them in the past so did not think they existed. Just because you cannot see something does not mean it does not exist and just because you cannot see something does not mean there not in the realm of facts if you know they exist.

How does that help your argument? You claim to know that God exists in reality, but not only do you have no real evidence of that, such as photos, videos, spoors, DNA or equivalent, you don't even have a definition of God appropriate to a real being. The usual descriptions of God attribute to [him] only imaginary qualities like omnipotent, omniscient,omnipresent, perfect, infinite, eternal. A real God requires a real description ─ such that if we find a real suspect we can determine whether it's God or not.

You seem to be changing your argument now. Before your argument was that the gospel writers and the Apostles did not believe that Jesus was God.

I pointed out that all five versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God. Were all five of them liars, and their mission based on a great lie?

You were provided scripture in the last post proving differently.

No, I was not. The citations you offered were on the subject of whether Jesus pre-existed in heaven in the view of Mark, Matthew and Luke, not whether Jesus was God. You have not disputed my observation that the Jesuses of Paul and John pre-existed in heaven and created the material universe.

Anyhow, that does not really matter because your coming from a place of unbelief so there is nothing anyone can share with you to make you change your mind.

Of course there is, and that's the entire subject of our conversation. Define the real God in real terms and then show me this real God.

"What if your wrong."

What if the Jewish God is the true God and those who are not part of [his] Covenant, not least uncircumcised males, don't matter to [him]? What if you're wrong about the Hindu gods? What if Gautama Buddha nailed it? What if the Great Spirit or the Plumed Serpent or the Rainbow Serpent is indeed the one and only true divinity?

Take Care, yourself.

But far more importantly than our theological discussion, do no harm and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. And as a bonus, that way (it seems to me) you maximize your chances with any divinity that (a) exists and (b) is just.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Or, the Sabbath was acknowledged before the account of Creation found in the Pentateuch.

I have a different take. I think the story originally had no timeline or day of rest, that these were added later for a very practical reason. First notice that other creation stories don't tell us how long Odin or Tiamat took to create the world, just the materials used and the order they were used:

• "The mighty Marduk took his club and split Tiamat’s body in half. He placed half of her body in the sky and made the heavens (space). He created the moon to guard the heavens, and set it moving back and forth, on endless (time) patrol (energy). With the other half of Tiamat's body he made the land.(matter) "

• "Odin, Vili, and Vé killed the giant Ymir. The sons of Bor then ... made the world from him. From his blood they made the sea and the lakes; from his flesh the earth; from his hair the trees; and from his bones the mountains. They made rocks and pebbles from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken. Maggots appeared in Ymir's flesh and came to life. By the decree of the gods they acquired human understanding and the appearance of men"

Yet when we come to the Hebrew's version, we are told it took a week that ended with a day rest. This makes Yahweh seem less powerful that gods who can create the cosmos much more quickly and don't need to rest. Why would that be added? I suggest in order to accommodate a new way of living. This says to me that there was a transformation in human culture from a time when able-bodied people worked every day, as in the Hebrew's nomadic days, when social groups were smaller and religion was administered where they were, to a time when man had settled, populations became larger, and a centralized temple and an established priesthood needing to be supported by the community arose.

A new work ethic was necessary to accommodate the need for people to travel to and from a temple to bring tithes to the now full-time, professional priesthood and stay for services. Whereas once it was unacceptable to take a day off for anything less than illness, it now was necessary to make the opposite true: It became a sin to not do that. Put down that plowshare and shepherd's crook one day a week and take the family to synagogue, since it can't come to you. It was even made into a commandment, and got a place on the top ten list.

And why a week? What an unnatural unit of time. The three natural cycles are the 24-hour day, the 29.5-day month, and the 365.25-day year. Daily trips to the temple are too frequent and thus don't make sense, but monthly and yearly visits were too far apart, so a new unit was coined for this purpose of tithing every seven days. And with this, the weekend was born. This hypothesis is consistent with human nature (the economics of working versus not working) and human history (man went from nomadic to settled), and accounts for the timeline being present, the day of rest, and the creation of the seven-day cycle of time.

By this reckoning, the account without the timeline came first, and was modified later upon settling to accommodate the needs of the priesthood.

The Sabbath Day was established at creation. It was the day in which Yahweh rested from all His work after 6 literal days of creating this planet in to a paradise. He blessed and hallowed this one day as holy. You cannot sanctify a day as holy, only Yahweh has the power to do that.

If you read what I wrote, you know I disagree. There was no creation apart from the Big Bang, just people trying to understand and cope with their world, and the sabbath was a creation of man. But I agree with you that the days of creation were meant and understood as literal days. To those who say otherwise, this is the counterargument. Man is imitating what he thinks his god did. And like the six days of creation preceding it, it contains a sundown and a sunset.

 

[3rdAngel]

How does that help your argument? You claim to know that God exists in reality, but not only do you have no real evidence of that, such as photos, videos, spoors, DNA or equivalent, you don't even have a definition of God appropriate to a real being. The usual descriptions of God attribute to [him] only imaginary qualities like omnipotent, omniscient,omnipresent, perfect, infinite, eternal. A real God requires a real description ─ such that if we find a real suspect we can determine whether it's God or not.

It helps the discussion and argument very much because no one knew of believed things like some of the examples provided earlier (cosmic radiation, electricity or sound waves) existed because they could not see them. There was even a time when no one knew about DNA and there was no way anyone had the capacity or understanding to objectively test for any of the above. This only further support what is being shared with you because just because you cannot see something or prove empirically that something does not exist does not mean something does not exist. Yes correct I claim to know God in reality and yes I have no doubts but I cannot test for him no one can just the same no one can test to prove God does not exist. What this is showing is that your argument of not seeing something in order to prove it's existence does not help arguments of unbelief.

I pointed out that all five versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God. Were all five of them liars, and their mission based on a great lie?

Sorry you may need to explain yourself here for clarity. What do you mean "all five versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God"? You did not show any evidence from the scriptures that Jesus was not God. You were provided scripture however showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles all collectively believed Jesus was God *here John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1. These scriptures are all collective evidence in disagreement with you.

No, I was not. The citations you offered were on the subject of whether Jesus pre-existed in heaven in the view of Mark, Matthew and Luke, not whether Jesus was God. You have not disputed my observation that the Jesuses of Paul and John pre-existed in heaven and created the material universe.

The scripture provided to you dear friend were direct quotes stating that not only did Jesus pre-exist creation but that Jesus was the God of creation. Did you read them Here lets look at a few I do not think you read them..

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

• 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST. HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

• JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

• 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

• TITUS 2:1313 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

• JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”

• LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD”

So yes you were provided scripture evidence showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles believed Jesus was God. Stating anything otherwise is simply being dishonest but I prefer to believe you were not being dishonest but perhaps you simply did not read the scripture evidence shared with you and did not know.

Of course there is, and that's the entire subject of our conversation. Define the real God in real terms and then show me this real God.

According to the scriptures we cannot know or see God if we are coming from a place of sin and unbelief so there is nothing anyone can share to make those who walk this path change their minds if they are not opened to it. If we do not bite the apple we will never know what it tastes like. For me I believe that our God is a Spirit (see Mark 2:23-24) the only true God (John 17:3) and is the God of all creation and our maker (see Genesis 2:1-3) that we all will stand before come judgement day according to the scriptures (see 2 Corinthians 5:10).

What if the Jewish God is the true God and those who are not part of [his] Covenant, not least uncircumcised males, don't matter to [him]? What if you're wrong about the Hindu gods? What if Gautama Buddha nailed it? What if the Great Spirit or the Plumed Serpent or the Rainbow Serpent is indeed the one and only true divinity?

The Jewish God is the same as the Christian God. I have looked into the other Gods you mentioned and never found peace and God there. I only ever found God in the last place I looked and never expected to find it in Christianity. You would know this if you read my earlier posts to you.

Take Care.

 

[blü 2]

It helps the discussion and argument very much because no one knew of believed things like some of the examples provided earlier (cosmic radiation, electricity or sound waves) existed because they could not see them.

And how were they shown to be real? By satisfactory demonstration of their reality.

Which begins with a clear definition of what we're looking for in reality.

Which it appears you don't have, though that doesn't distinguish you from theists generally.

Sorry you may need to explain yourself here for clarity. What do you mean "all five versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God"?

I mean that the Jesus of Paul, the Jesus of Mark, the Jesus of Matthew, the Jesus of Luke and the Jesus of John each deny that they're God and never claim to be God. I offered you quotes earlier ─ try these:

(Paul) Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

(And before Abraham was, I am, is said only by John's Jesus, and indicates simply that he pre-existed not only Abraham, but the material universe of which he was the creator (like Paul's Jesus.)

So EITHER all five versions of Jesus are liars and the entirety of their mission was based on a very big lie AND the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew both said, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and all four gospel Jesuses said "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me" and so on, OR none of the NT Jesuses was God.


(The Jewish God was not and is not triune, unlike the most popular Christian model of God. Nor do I embrace the argument that the Jewish God sent Jesus in order to trigger 2000 years of rapacious and often murderous Christian antisemitism.)

 

[3rdAngel]

And how were they shown to be real? By satisfactory demonstration of their reality.

Which begins with a clear definition of what we're looking for in reality.

Which it appears you don't have, though that doesn't distinguish you from theists generally.
I mean that the Jesus of Paul, the Jesus of Mark, the Jesus of Matthew, the Jesus of Luke and the Jesus of John each deny that they're God and never claim to be God. I offered you quotes earlier ─ try these:

(Paul) Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist........................ (cut here by me to save space)​

According to the scriptures, all four versions of the gospels are not liars it is your interpretation of the scripture you provided in your last post that there is only "one God" that is the problem, but allow me to show why if it might be helpful.

Your view of a one (singular) God is in contradiction to the scriptures already shared with you that state that Jesus is God right (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1).

Do you want to reconcile your view with the apparent contradiction of the scriptures you have just read earlier and listed here and elsewhere, stating that Jesus is the God of creation with your claims that the scriptures teach there is only a one singular God in the Father? I will show you how the scriptures you have quoted are in harmony with the scriptures I have already provided to you if it might be helpful to the discussion.

Lets start with John, Paul's and God's claim that Jesus is the God of creation and follow it back to the creation event from the old testament scriptures...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

• COLOSSIANS 1:15-16 HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the first of all creation. FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

NOTE: As shown above and the many scriptures already provided showing that Jesus is the God of creation let's show how the scriptures above are reconciled with the scriptures you have provided that you interpret are saying that only God as there is nothing in any of the scriptures you have provided there to even remotely suggest that Jesus is not God and that Jesus is not the God of creation. So I believe there is not a single scripture you have provided in your previous post that is in disagreement with what I have shared with you earlier. So lets look at the old testament scriptures to that prove this but first lets start with these words from Jesus here and look at their implication and meaning...

ONE GOD OR ONE IN UNIFICATION?

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Compare with these scriptures here (there are more but we can use these as examples)...

• DEUTERONOMY 6:4 4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE GOD

• GENESIS 2:24 24, Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.

• GENESIS 11:6 And the LORD said, BEHOLD, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

• GENESIS 34:15 16, Then will we give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE.

• EXODUS 12:49 49, ONE LAW shall be to him that is home born, and to the stranger that sojournes among you.

• EXODUS 24:3… all the people answered with ONE VOICE…

• JUDGES 20:8 All the people arose as ONE MAN…

Are in harmony with...

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

• MATTHEW 28:19 9, Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST

• 1 JOHN 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and THESE THREE ARE ONE."

NOTE: the one thing that all these scriptures have in common is that the context and the Hebrew show a plural application and meaning to the English word translated as one (singular). The Hebrew word used here for "one" here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) which is a derivation: a numeral from אָחַד; its meaning is properly, united, i.e. as one; or (as an ordinal) first
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-) ly, each (one), [phrase] eleven, every, few, first, [phrase] highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
So beside having a meaning of one (singular) like the English definition, unlike English it can also be used in plural application depending on the scripture contexts.

Now plural application to the Hebrew word one has been proven. Let's look at the Genesis account of creation and God's Words as they are written in creation and see how these are also are not supportive of one singular God but God as plural unified application like the examples provided from the scriptures above...

PLURAL GOD (One God in unification) AT CREATION?

God reveals himself throughout scripture as one in unification as shown in the scriptures above and also in the creation account and in other scriptures here...

• GENESIS 1:26 26 And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

• GENESIS 3:22 “Then the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

• Genesis 11:7 “COME, LET US GO DOWN AND CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will not understand each other

• Isaiah 6:8 “Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and WHO WILL GO FOR US?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

NOTE: You will note above that "let us, "our image" or "our likeness" or "one of us" or "for us" is first person plural application in the Hebrew words use here. It is not a singular application to God in any references provided from the Torah. So the collective scripture as well as word meaning, context and use here is that when the term one us used it does not always mean singular application but can also mean plural application based on the scripture contexts. The scripture context provided in this post prove that the term "one God" is an application to a plural God that are unified and as "one people" as "one flesh" as highlighted in the scriptures in the previous section while the God of creation is is also plural application to "us or our". This shows why your interpretation of the scriptures you provided earlier to a singular God is in error and also shows how the scriptures you provided in your last post are harmonized and do not contradict each other.

left over continued in the next post...

 

[3rdAngel]

(And before Abraham was, I am, is said only by John's Jesus, and indicates simply that he pre-existed not only Abraham, but the material universe of which he was the creator (like Paul's Jesus.)

I never quoted Jesus saying I AM of John showing the pre-existance of Jesus. I quoted John 1:1-4; 14 showing John calling Jesus the God of creation with other supporting scriptures teaching the gospel writers and the Apostles thought that Jesus was God. I posted this in my last post with some detailed examples and larger scripture lists provided elsewhere. Did you not see or read it? (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1). As to your comment here however, with Jesus calling Himself the great I AM. You do know that this name was considered the name of God in the old testament scriptures by the Jews right (burning bush)? Your comments here only strengthens my case against you.

So EITHER all five versions of Jesus are liars and the entirety of their mission was based on a very big lie AND the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew both said, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and all four gospel Jesuses said "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me" and so on, OR none of the NT Jesuses was God.

As shown above all scriptures you have provided have been harmonized in the previous section of my last post showing it is your understanding of the meaning of these scriptures that is in error (see previous sections outlining why above). Your comments here do not consider that Jesus on earth came and lived as a man so that he could be our example to fulfill all righteousness so that he could pay the penalty for our sins so that everyone who by faith chooses to believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life (see John 3:16; John 3:36)

(The Jewish God was not and is not triune, unlike the most popular Christian model of God. Nor do I embrace the argument that the Jewish God sent Jesus in order to trigger 2000 years of rapacious and often murderous Christian antisemitism.)

Please forgive me I do not believe you and have already shown why above and in previous posts and discussions with you. So we will have to agree to disagree here

 

[Subduction Zone]

According to the scriptures, all four versions of the gospels are not liars it is your interpretation of the scripture you provided in your last post that there is only "one God" that is the problem, but allow me to show why if it might be helpful.

Your view of a one (singular) God is in contradiction to the scriptures already shared with you that state that Jesus is God right (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1).

Do you want to reconcile your view with the apparent contradiction of the scriptures you have just read earlier and listed here and elsewhere, stating that Jesus is the God of creation with your claims that the scriptures teach there is only a one singular God in the Father? I will show you how the scriptures you have quoted are in harmony with the scriptures I have already provided to you if it might be helpful to the discussion.

Lets start with John, Paul's and God's claim that Jesus is the God of creation and follow it back to the creation event from the old testament scriptures...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

• COLOSSIANS 1:15-16 HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the first of all creation. FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

NOTE: As shown above and the many scriptures already provided showing that Jesus is the God of creation let's show how the scriptures above are reconciled with the scriptures you have provided that you interpret are saying that only God as there is nothing in any of the scriptures you have provided there to even remotely suggest that Jesus is not God and that Jesus is not the God of creation. So I believe there is not a single scripture you have provided in your previous post that is in disagreement with what I have shared with you earlier. So lets look at the old testament scriptures to that prove this but first lets start with these words from Jesus here and look at their implication and meaning...

ONE GOD OR ONE IN UNIFICATION?

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Compare with these scriptures here (there are more but we can use these as examples)...

• DEUTERONOMY 6:4 4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE GOD

• GENESIS 2:24 24, Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.

• GENESIS 11:6 And the LORD said, BEHOLD, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

• GENESIS 34:15 16, Then will we give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE.

• EXODUS 12:49 49, ONE LAW shall be to him that is home born, and to the stranger that sojournes among you.

• EXODUS 24:3… all the people answered with ONE VOICE…

• JUDGES 20:8 All the people arose as ONE MAN…

Are in harmony with...

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

• MATTHEW 28:19 9, Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST

• 1 JOHN 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and THESE THREE ARE ONE."

NOTE: the one thing that all these scriptures have in common is that the context and the Hebrew show a plural application and meaning to the English word translated as one (singular). The Hebrew word used here for "one" here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) which is a derivation: a numeral from אָחַד; its meaning is properly, united, i.e. as one; or (as an ordinal) first
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-) ly, each (one), [phrase] eleven, every, few, first, [phrase] highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
So beside having a meaning of one (singular) like the English definition, unlike English it can also be used in plural application depending on the scripture contexts.

Now plural application to the Hebrew word one has been proven. Let's look at the Genesis account of creation and God's Words as they are written in creation and see how these are also are not supportive of one singular God but God as plural unified application like the examples provided from the scriptures above...

PLURAL GOD (One God in unification) AT CREATION?

God reveals himself throughout scripture as one in unification as shown in the scriptures above and also in the creation account and in other scriptures here...

• GENESIS 1:26 26 And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

• GENESIS 3:22 “Then the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

• Genesis 11:7 “COME, LET US GO DOWN AND CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will not understand each other

• Isaiah 6:8 “Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and WHO WILL GO FOR US?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

NOTE: You will note above that "let us, "our image" or "our likeness" or "one of us" or "for us" is first person plural application in the Hebrew words use here. It is not a singular application to God in any references provided from the Torah. So the collective scripture as well as word meaning, context and use here is that when the term one us used it does not always mean singular application but can also mean plural application based on the scripture contexts. The scripture context provided in this post prove that the term "one God" is an application to a plural God that are unified and as "one people" as "one flesh" as highlighted in the scriptures in the previous section while the God of creation is is also plural application to "us or our". This shows why your interpretation of the scriptures you provided earlier to a singular God is in error and also shows how the scriptures you provided in your last post are harmonized and do not contradict each other.

left over continued in the next post...

Sorry, but you continue to try to use the Bible as evidence. It is the claim. It is not the evidence. To even begin to do so you would need to demonstrate that it is reliable and since large parts of it are myth you will fail at that.

 

[3rdAngel]

Sorry, but you continue to try to use the Bible as evidence. It is the claim. It is not the evidence. To even begin to do so you would need to demonstrate that it is reliable and since large parts of it are myth you will fail at that.

Why make arguments that are not being made? That is simply a distraction as to what is being discussed. No need to be sorry dear friend, time will tell what is true and what is not true as it is written in the scriptures "There is nothing hidden or not known that shall not be revealed" - Luke 8:17.

 

[blü 2]

According to the scriptures, all four versions of the gospels are not liars it is your interpretation of the scripture you provided in your last post that there is only "one God" that is the problem, but allow me to show why if it might be helpful.

Your view of a one (singular) God is in contradiction to the scriptures already shared with you that state that Jesus is God right (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1).


Do you want to reconcile your view with the apparent contradiction of the scriptures you have just read earlier and listed here and elsewhere, stating that Jesus is the God of creation with your claims that the scriptures teach there is only a one singular God in the Father? I will show you how the scriptures you have quoted are in harmony with the scriptures I have already provided to you if it might be helpful to the discussion.

Lets start with John, Paul's and God's claim that Jesus is the God of creation and follow it back to the creation event from the old testament scriptures...

• JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

• COLOSSIANS 1:15-16 HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the first of all creation. FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

• HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.

NOTE: As shown above and the many scriptures already provided showing that Jesus is the God of creation let's show how the scriptures above are reconciled with the scriptures you have provided that you interpret are saying that only God as there is nothing in any of the scriptures you have provided there to even remotely suggest that Jesus is not God and that Jesus is not the God of creation. So I believe there is not a single scripture you have provided in your previous post that is in disagreement with what I have shared with you earlier. So lets look at the old testament scriptures to that prove this but first lets start with these words from Jesus here and look at their implication and meaning...

ONE GOD OR ONE IN UNIFICATION?

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Compare with these scriptures here (there are more but we can use these as examples)...

• DEUTERONOMY 6:4 4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE GOD

• GENESIS 2:24 24, Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.

• GENESIS 11:6 And the LORD said, BEHOLD, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

• GENESIS 34:15 16, Then will we give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE.

• EXODUS 12:49 49, ONE LAW shall be to him that is home born, and to the stranger that sojournes among you.

• EXODUS 24:3… all the people answered with ONE VOICE…

• JUDGES 20:8 All the people arose as ONE MAN…

Are in harmony with...

• JOHN 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

• MATTHEW 28:19 9, Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST

• 1 JOHN 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and THESE THREE ARE ONE."

NOTE: the one thing that all these scriptures have in common is that the context and the Hebrew show a plural application and meaning to the English word translated as one (singular). The Hebrew word used here for "one" here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) which is a derivation: a numeral from אָחַד; its meaning is properly, united, i.e. as one; or (as an ordinal) first
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-) ly, each (one), [phrase] eleven, every, few, first, [phrase] highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
So beside having a meaning of one (singular) like the English definition, unlike English it can also be used in plural application depending on the scripture contexts.

Now plural application to the Hebrew word one has been proven. Let's look at the Genesis account of creation and God's Words as they are written in creation and see how these are also are not supportive of one singular God but God as plural unified application like the examples provided from the scriptures above...

PLURAL GOD (One God in unification) AT CREATION?

God reveals himself throughout scripture as one in unification as shown in the scriptures above and also in the creation account and in other scriptures here...

• GENESIS 1:26 26 And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

• GENESIS 3:22 “Then the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

• Genesis 11:7 “COME, LET US GO DOWN AND CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will not understand each other

• Isaiah 6:8 “Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and WHO WILL GO FOR US?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

NOTE: You will note above that "let us, "our image" or "our likeness" or "one of us" or "for us" is first person plural application in the Hebrew words use here. It is not a singular application to God in any references provided from the Torah. So the collective scripture as well as word meaning, context and use here is that when the term one us used it does not always mean singular application but can also mean plural application based on the scripture contexts. The scripture context provided in this post prove that the term "one God" is an application to a plural God that are unified and as "one people" as "one flesh" as highlighted in the scriptures in the previous section while the God of creation is is also plural application to "us or our". This shows why your interpretation of the scriptures you provided earlier to a singular God is in error and also shows how the scriptures you provided in your last post are harmonized and do not contradict each other.

left over continued in the next post...

Isaiah 9:6 looks back to 7:14. The government was on the shoulder of the child the lady bore in Isaiah. That, like everything else in the Tanakh, has nothing to do with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 21: Makes no claim that Jesus is God. Why would it? for Paul, Jesus is "Lord" to the glory of the Father who is God.

Colossians 2:9 merely affirms Jesus' status as God's envoy. If you're the US ambassador to somewhere, in you by agency dwells the full authority of the Presidency.

Hebrews 1:3 does not say Jesus is God. Again it says Jesus wields God's authority.

Hebrews 1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν ὁ θρόνος equally translates as "God is your throne".

Mark 1:24: "the Holy One of God" (a) is not said by Mark's Jesus and (b) doesn't mean "God".

Matthew 1:23 invokes Isaiah 7:14. The name Immanuel means "God is with us". It does not mean "I am God." Do you think Kant's mother thought she had born a god?

John 1:1-4 identifies Jesus as the personification of a quality of God, the logos. (Some have suggested that means God's wisdom.) It doesn't say Jesus is God. It says he was in the beginning with God and part of God.

John 5:18 contains no claim by Jesus to be God nor any claim by critics that he's God, only "equal to God".

John 8:58 As I said, in John, Jesus exists in heaven with God and creates the material universe, so in that version, before Abraham he certainly WAS.

John 10:30 Read John 17 and see the manner in which Jesus is one with God and how you too can be one with God in exactly the same manner.

John 20:28 Jesus makes no claim to be God. Thomas' awestruck epithet doesn't alter that.

Acts 10:41 doesn't contain any claim that Jesus is God. The reference is to the Jewish God in the preceding verse.

1 Peter 1:1 contains no claim that Jesus is God.

Titus 2:13 Yes, it calls him God. David gets called God (Psalm 45:6) too. But Titus is low-status, one of the three pseudepigraphical "pastorals", and I don't think I'd prefer it, even as flattery, to the robust denials by all five Jesuses, as I've quoted you.


Dear oh dear, what a waste of time!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why make arguments that are not being made? That is simply a distraction as to what is being discussed. No need to be sorry dear friend, time will tell what is true and what is not true as it is written in the scriptures "There is nothing hidden or not known that shall not be revealed" - Luke 8:17.

The point is that you are trying to use the Bible as "proof". You simply cannot do that without justification. Or are we just playing silly Spiderman games?

 

[blü 2]

I never quoted Jesus saying I AM of John showing the pre-existance of Jesus. I quoted John 1:1-4; 14 showing John calling Jesus the God of creation with other supporting scriptures teaching the gospel writers and the Apostles thought that Jesus was God. I posted this in my last post with some detailed examples and larger scripture lists provided elsewhere. Did you not see or read it? (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1). As to your comment here however, with Jesus calling Himself the great I AM. You do know that this name was considered the name of God in the old testament scriptures by the Jews right (burning bush)? Your comments here only strengthens my case against you.

But you haven't responded to the list I posted above (#348).

Do you say they're all forgeries? Lies? Errors of translation? The devil corrupting scripture?

Or do you think they align with the history of the Christian church, which as I said had early pressure to elevate its central character to God status but couldn't agree how till they settled for the incoherent Trinity doctrine in the 4th century?

What's the story?