Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, you break the Commandments by turning it into a false idol. Some day you might understand it.Thank you. I have learned the truth about the bible and pray that you will as well
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"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus kept the law.
But Jesus also fulfilled the law. Examples are plenty, ie respecting the temple but declaring God doesn't dwell in temples, and keeping the Passover but becoming the Passover lamb himself.
So Jesus observed the Sabbath - but then met with his people on the Sundays.
And if Paul were to discuss religion on the Sunday he would not have found many people around, it was the start of a new working week.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Paul did most of his work outside of Israel. A lot of it in Rome. In Rome Sunday was the first day of the week. It was also a day for rest and prayer:
One moment, please...
If the Old Testament is no longer applicable to Christians, why do most denominations insist on including it in their Bibles?
But what does "fulfill" mean, exactly? Jesus was pretty vague, and his followers seem to use the passage to justify flouting the traditional rules that Jesus was clear about; "...not a jot or a tittle" seems pretty clear to me.
exchemist
Veteran Member
That's not what I said. I said the teaching of the Christian churches, from the beginning, has not been that scripture is the sole source of faith and doctrine. There's no point in trying to prove something about the history of the church by scrabbling about in scripture. That is not where the history of the church is documented.
From the start, the church (and later, churches) believed the apostles and their successors remained divinely inspired and as such could lay out doctrines to clarify and expand upon what is written in the scripture, incorporating these into the traditions of the church.
It was the excesses and dubious practices that had grown up in the church that led Luther to mount a "back to basics" campaign, insisting on scripture only (sola scriptura). So this was a novelty, introduced by Luther.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Wow. Let’s look at some of the comments that have been made here. Metis has said in Msg #7 that “Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the "Lord's Day", but since the vast majority of Christians after the 1st century were Gentiles, it really doesn't make any difference which day was chosen. Shabbat is only mandatory for Jews per Torah.”
I really am baffled by this statement. Let me try to grasp your reasoning: Because the majority of Christians after the age of Apostles were Gentiles that makes it OK to change the Law? So if most of the original adherents to Yahshua’s faith were Jews, the Sabbath should be Friday night to Saturday night, but when more gentiles began entering the assembly, this changed to Sunday? Wow. I am really amazed at your reasoning. Sorry, what gives you, or anyone for that matter, a right to change the Law of Yahweh? You cannot just change the Law on a whim, Yahshua has said in Matthew 5 that is easier for the whole world to blow up and be destroyed than it is for one of the merest declarations to pass away from the Law. Yahshua our Savior kept the seventh day Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday. Is he our example or not? 1 Peter 2:21 tells us he is supposed to be our example. Not a corrupted Ch-rch. If faith in Yahshua the Messiah causes Judaism to be rejected, how much more a Ch-rch who doesn’t keep the faith of Yahshua. A lot of paganism infiltrated True Worship, especially after the age of the Apostles. Act 17:30 says
“30 In the past Yahweh overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
The faith does not change. It's not a reed blown about by the wind. It’s the people that need to change. Let’s just get that point firmly established before we continue in this post.
The second part of metis’ post claims that the Sabbath was for the Jews. Here we have another opinion that has no merit whatsoever. The Sabbath Day was established at creation. It was the day in which Yahweh rested from all His work after 6 literal days of creating this planet in to a paradise. He blessed and hallowed this one day as holy. You cannot sanctify a day as holy, only Yahweh has the power to do that. This was the Sabbath Day. If you keep the Sunday as the Sabbath, you are not going to receive the blessings and sanctification from keeping what should be the correct day holy. Friday sunset to Saturday sunset is holy time. The Sabbath was created before Jews were even around. Adam and Eve would’ve kept the Sabbath Day. They were not Jews.
Have you not read the scripture. Isaiah 56:2 clearly states: “Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that holdeth it fast; that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.” The word ‘man’ here proves that it is not simply the Jew that is required to keep the Sabbath.
In msg 2 exchemist says: “Well of course it's a tradition, like so much else in Christianity. Why is that a big deal to you?” Of course this wasn’t addressed to me, but again, tradition should not overrule scripture. If there was a tradition to sacrifice three humans a year and somehow it came in to Chr-stianity, would you agree to it? We have to reject tradition and uphold scripture. Many times traditions come from pagan sources, such as the Xmas celebration. What did our Savior have to say about tradition? “Then there come to Yahshua from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of Yahweh because of your tradition?” (Matthew 15:2-3) Well, Yahshua is asking you the same question today and what answer do you have? Why would you adhere to a Sunday Sabbath when Yahweh's commandment tells us to keep the seventh day Sabbath. Because of tradition?
Kenny in msg 19 quotes from Col 2:16, but as I have pointed out, this does not advocate lawlessness. It does not advocate that we should not keep new moon, or Sabbath, or feast day or the dietary laws.
It says: “16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is the Messiah’s. “
The scripture clearly tells us not to allow man to judge us regarding these things. Yahshua is our judge. You can also read John 5:30. Hence what is says ‘the body is the Messiah’s’. Taking scriptures out of context doesn’t help anyone. Please read verse 17, it tells us these things are a shadow of the things to come. In the Kingdom of Yahweh we will realise the full potential of the Laws of Yahweh, when everyone will be keeping the holy days, the dietary laws etc.
Unfortunately, I don’t have time to go through all 7 pages and respond to all the excuses people are coming up with to get out of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. Even Jews will claim that only they need to keep the Sabbath Day and some of them sadly don’t keep it properly. But, you 3rdAngel keep at it, keep keeping the Sabbath Day. It certainly is a blessed day and they are blessings attached to keeping this holy day properly. May Yahweh bless you.
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Or, the Sabbath was acknowledged before the account of Creation found in the Pentateuch.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Most Christians just don't see this the way you do, evidently.
I leave you with this thought: "Was the Sabbath made for Man or Man for the Sabbath?"
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Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi exchemist. Good afternoon. Sabbath was made for man, yes, but weren't all the Laws of Yahweh made for man. They are there for a reason. That doesn't mean we should push an ox in a ditch on the Sabbath so we can pull it out again. It means, we should still be respectful of the Sabbath Day, even moreso because Yahweh created the Sabbath with his creation in mind. He knew we would need rest. He sanctified one day as holy, not Sunday, or any other day, to keep as holy.Most Christians just don't see this the way you do, evidently.
I leave you with this thought: "Was the Sabbath made for Man or Man for the Sabbath?"
You have to remember exchemist that you are referring to Mark 2:26-28 but the context shows that the Pharisees were criticizing Yahshua for letting his disciples pluck grain and eat it on the Sabbath Day. Those who know the Torah know it's OK to do this (Leviticus 23:22) but the Pharisees were claiming this was unlawful. "23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?"
exchemist
Veteran Member
Christians do not follow the Law of Moses. You know that. This legalistic approach is exactly the kind of thing Christ preached against.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Psssssttt…. “Practice” not “Practise”….
((Small errors in usage of textual language copied by unknowledgeable copiers and translators can lead to misunderstandings and misreadings later on))
@Messianic Israelite in what way do you observe the Sabbath?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
@exchemist is British. You know, the people that invented English. Perhaps he knows something that you don't know.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Good questions. In the Tanakh (or OT) thre were the
ORDINANCES - religious observances such as diet, dress, holy days etc
JUDGEMENTS - legal stuff mostly such as inheritances, civil law
COMMANDMENTS - moral observations
These three get mixed up somewhat. I hold that Sabbath observance is an ORDINANCE, like observing the Passover and the various feast days
Jesus' take on the issue is summarized in Matthew 5,6 and 7 - it's heavily into moral and character issues with no mention of things like special days.
Example: there are dietary rules in the Tanakh, Jesus dispensed with these by stating that whatever enters a person does not defile them - it's what comes out of that person that matters.
And yet Jesus' own church DID observe a Sabbath - it just wasn't Saturday.
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PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The Sunday was observed by the foundation church before Paul even heard of them.
There's too much of this 'Paul as founder' theories going around - its a not too subtle way of dismissing the Gospels.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
How so? Paul's works predated the Gospels by quite a bit anyway. Yes, the Bible is a bit misleading since the Gospels are the first NT books one sees. And what evidence is there for this?
Because the Apostles actually preached from it. It is the story behind the story.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Check it out….
Oxford English Doctionary:
“Practice”
‘uncountable, countable] doing an activity or training regularly so that you can improve your skill; the time you spend doing this
- conversation practice
- It takes a lot of practice to play the violin well.
- There's a basketball practice every Friday evening.
- She does an hour's piano practice every day.
- With practice you will become more skilled.
- practice in doing something I've had a lot of practice in saying ‘no’ recently!
- It takes years of practice to get it right.
- We had an extra practice session on Friday.
Extra Examples- Don't worry if you can't do it at first—it takes practice!
- His accent should improve with practice.
- I'll be able to get in a bit of practice this weekend.
- It will be good practice for later, when you have to make speeches in public.
- The children need more practice in tying their shoelaces.
- This chapter gives students practice in using adjectives.
- We watched the swimmers go through their practice drills.
- The trainees need more practice in using the compass.
action not ideas- [uncountable] action rather than ideas
- the theory and practice of teaching
- She's determined to put her new ideas into practice.
- in practice the complications that arise in actual
- Wearing gloves should be standard practicewhen handling pesticides.
- These methods remain current practice.
- It is a common practice to include recommendations for further action in the report.
- Everyone knows it is good business practice to listen to your customers.
- childcare policy and practice
- a review of pay and working practices
- Religious practices differ from group to group.
- I am constantly adopting new practices on my farm.
- The government has changed its accounting practices.
- practice of doing something We will follow the practice of going in alphabetical order.
- The company has ended its practice of pumping raw sewage out to sea.
Extra Examples
- American social practices
- Certain practices exist in both public and private schools.
- Established practices are difficult to modify.
- It is standard practice not to pay bills until the end of the month.
- The bank has continued its practice of charging late fees.
- This is now common practice among ethnographers.
- changes in employment practices
- environmentally sound practices
- the company's general practice of selling through agents
- the decisions that govern our practice and our conduct
- questionable accounting practices regarding the sale of hardware
- shady business practices
- Rumours of sharp practice or dishonest dealing will ruin his career.
- We use this information to inform clinical practice.
- safe medical practices for children
Cambridge Dictionary:
practice
noun
UK
/ˈpræk.tɪs/ US
/ˈpræk.tɪs/
practice noun (ACTION)
[ U ]
action rather than thought or ideas:
How do you intend to put these proposalsinto practice, Mohamed?
in practice
describe what really happens as opposed to what you think will happen in a particular situation:
It seemed like a good idea before we started, but in practice it was a disaster.
Officially, Robert's in charge, but in practice Hannah runs the office.
I can't see how your plan is going to work in practice.
More examples
- It frustrates me that I'm not able to put any of my ideas into practice.
- He doubted whether the plan was realizable in practice.
- Her idea for reorganizing the departmentwill never work in practice.
- You'd better check you've considered all the details before you actually put the scheme into practice.
- In theory, the journey ought to take three hours, but in practice it usually takes four because of roadworks.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
I did not say that the OT is no longer applicable to Christians. It is as much the word of God as the NT is.
It is the Law of Moses however, which includes the 10 commandments, which is part of the Covenant of Moses, the Old Covenant and not part of the New Covenant that Jesus is mediator of (and which was promised in the OT)
The OT points to Jesus and the New Covenant and shows Jesus to be the true Jewish Messiah, without the OT as a witness to Jesus, Jesus would be just some guy making unjustifiable claims.