The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[Redemptionsong]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

The way to sort out these apparent anomalies is to accept the orthodox Christian teaching that whilst on earth the Son of God is also the Son of Man. There are times when Jesus speaks as a man, and times when he speaks as God.

Once resurrected, and in heaven, there is no scripture, l believe, that shows Jesus to be less that God in Spirit.

John's Gospel is also of crucial importance, as we know that without this book we would not have a full picture of the Messiah. Put simply, a man without the full measure of the Holy Spirit is not in a position to be a Saviour from sin.

 

[paarsurrey]

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

But as far as I know, even Jehovah's Witnesses accept St John's gospel.

" the idea of Jesus as God "

So, this idea of Jesus-god has been manufactured by the (anonymous) John and or by those who picked this verbal narrative up, and doctored it as per their ulterior motives; Jesus never claimed as such in unequivocal, straightforward and unambiguous manner, please, right?

Regards

 

[pearl]

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Of the two forms of the prayer found in the Gospels, Lk's is considerably shorter than Mt's. The form found in the Didache is longer than Mt's by a doxology at the end. So, which one is the original from Jesus? Would the author of Luke shorten the prayer or did Matthew add to it?

1. The ‘Amen’ is to SEAL the prayer in the name of righteousness and holiness to God

The 'Amen' is the seal of our agreement.

 

[pearl]

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

It's the high christology of John's gospel that must be taken into consideration, and also the times of the Johannine community and lived experience.

 

[Soapy]

You asked for one. Is it because I found one that you decided to try an attack?

Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”

I find interesting that they didn't do this in the name of the Father or even ask the Father to do it.

Still ignorant of even simple English!

You STILL do not understand what “IN YOUR NAME” (In the name of Jesus) means…. Tuh!
Fat chance of understand much more, then!

 

[Soapy]

Of the two forms of the prayer found in the Gospels, Lk's is considerably shorter than Mt's. The form found in the Didache is longer than Mt's by a doxology at the end. So, which one is the original from Jesus? Would the author of Luke shorten the prayer or did Matthew add to it?



The 'Amen' is the seal of our agreement.

Agree - but what’s the difference from what I said?

 

[Soapy]

The way to sort out these apparent anomalies is to accept the orthodox Christian teaching that whilst on earth the Son of God is also the Son of Man. There are times when Jesus speaks as a man, and times when he speaks as God.

Once resurrected, and in heaven, there is no scripture, l believe, that shows Jesus to be less that God in Spirit.

John's Gospel is also of crucial importance, as we know that without this book we would not have a full picture of the Messiah. Put simply, a man without the full measure of the Holy Spirit is not in a position to be a Saviour from sin.

The anomaLIE arises exactly because of orthodox Christian teaching.

And you say there is nothing about Jesus in Heaven being less than God…. Hmmm… you must have used your eye’s blind spot on all the verses and themes that show exactly that Jesus is less than God. I think you also try to play to the emotional element of those who cannot fathom Jesus being anything other than God. You don’t give them the ability to judge got themselves - you force the fallacy onto them by employing leading statements and false claims that are so obviously deviant that it’s a wonder anyone still believes in [Trinity] Christianity.
Indeed, THAT IS EXACTLY Satan’s great quest. Create as much nonsense surrounding the truth of God and Christ that no one believes any of it….

In Heaven, Jesus says he:

• ‘WAS DEAD but IS NOW ALIVE forevermore’

Can you say that ‘God was dead and is NOW Alive forever more’, or is it that GOD:

• “Is he who IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE’

In other words:

• ‘He is from Eternal past through now, onto eternal to come’

God ETERNALLY IS… and that is what ‘YHWH’ means.
Jesus BECAME ‘A living Spirit’

And ‘GOD IS SEATED ON HIS THRONE’…
Jesus is STANDING IN FRONT AND CENTRE of the throne WITH THE ELDERS (of the same kind).

God is not a SLAUGHTERED LAMB… a Sacrifice for sin.
Jesus is a SLAUGHTERED LAMB… a Sacrifice for sin.

ONLY God is WORSHIPPED…
Both Jesus and GOD are offered:

• ‘Praise, Glory, and Honour’

In an insipid and unreverent attempt to claim that Jesus is God (even though Jesus and God are mentioned everywhere as two different and separate entities) Trinitarians try to claim that ‘Praise, Glory, and Honor’ IS WORSHIP!

But how is that when ANYONE and EVERYONE who achieves high office CAN BE ‘Praised, Honored, and Glorified’!!

They are not called ‘Almighty God’, though! Why? Because simple common sense says it’s not true - only Trinitarians try to say so!

At the end of time it is JESUS who is said to be returning (Is to come).
GOD is NEVER said to be ‘Coming’ anywhere let alone ‘RETURNING’…

 

[pearl]

Agree - but what’s the difference from what I said?

Interesting question; Did Luke shorten the prayer given by Jesus, or did Matthew add to it. Which was the original. I think it is most probable that Matthew added the doxology. Hard to think of Luke reducing what was believed to be Jesus' own words. Until the new liturgy it was Luke's form, now it is Matthew's.

 

[Kenny]

Still ignorant of even simple English!

You STILL do not understand what “IN YOUR NAME” (In the name of Jesus) means…. Tuh!
Fat chance of understand much more, then!

Another "my defense is a great offense" but no substance.

Did you notice they didn't "Ask the Father?"

 

[Soapy]

Another "my defense is a great offense" but no substance.

Did you notice they didn't "Ask the Father?"

What are you asking?

A vapoured question?

And how do you know that they didn’t ask the Father?

Jesus always ‘prayed the Father’ before performing any miracle since it is the fathers Holy Spirit that is used to do the miracle. In carrying out miracles in the name of Jesus, the same request for the Holy Spirit would have to be made by the disciples.

Jesus taught them how to carry out the works of the Father - and that would include praying the Father AS HE DID:

• “Father, I know that you always hear me when I pray - but I speak out loud now so that the people standing here will know that it is you that is carrying out the works!’ (Paraphrased)

The previous verse (John 11:41) reads:

• “So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.”

which validates praying the Father.

Again, doing things in the name of Jesus means doing the same as Jesus would have done.

Why you asked the question shows you have not much understanding as it was clear that the disciples had to have prayed the Father in the same manner as their teacher!

 

[Soapy]

Interesting question; Did Luke shorten the prayer given by Jesus, or did Matthew add to it. Which was the original. I think it is most probable that Matthew added the doxology. Hard to think of Luke reducing what was believed to be Jesus' own words. Until the new liturgy it was Luke's form, now it is Matthew's.

I never looked into that as it was clear to me what the profile of the prayer is:

1. Open with glorifies acknowledgment of the only true God and his power and authority
2. Admit your sins and and ask for forgiveness of your sins
3. Ask for what you are praying for
4. Beg for the hope that his testing to be reasonable and measurable according to your level of ability
5. Close by re-acknowledging that His majesty and power are eternal
6. Seal with (an agreement) that what you said was sincere and honest (like ticking the box at the end of an agreement list)

This is the framework of a prayer to God. It’s a model only so use your own words - MORE or LESS!!! Add to but don’t DETRACT!

So, whichever book outlined the most is probably the full model prayer. In reality, I don’t think it matters as long as the structure is followed.

 

[pearl]

So, whichever book outlined the most is probably the full model prayer. In reality, I don’t think it matters as long as the structure is followed.

Either way it a most beautiful prayer, especially when sung.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The anomaLIE arises exactly because of orthodox Christian teaching.

And you say there is nothing about Jesus in Heaven being less than God…. Hmmm… you must have used your eye’s blind spot on all the verses and themes that show exactly that Jesus is less than God. I think you also try to play to the emotional element of those who cannot fathom Jesus being anything other than God. You don’t give them the ability to judge got themselves - you force the fallacy onto them by employing leading statements and false claims that are so obviously deviant that it’s a wonder anyone still believes in [Trinity] Christianity.
Indeed, THAT IS EXACTLY Satan’s great quest. Create as much nonsense surrounding the truth of God and Christ that no one believes any of it….

In Heaven, Jesus says he:

• ‘WAS DEAD but IS NOW ALIVE forevermore’

Can you say that ‘God was dead and is NOW Alive forever more’, or is it that GOD:

• “Is he who IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE’

In other words:

• ‘He is from Eternal past through now, onto eternal to come’

God ETERNALLY IS… and that is what ‘YHWH’ means.
Jesus BECAME ‘A living Spirit’

And ‘GOD IS SEATED ON HIS THRONE’…
Jesus is STANDING IN FRONT AND CENTRE of the throne WITH THE ELDERS (of the same kind).

God is not a SLAUGHTERED LAMB… a Sacrifice for sin.
Jesus is a SLAUGHTERED LAMB… a Sacrifice for sin.

ONLY God is WORSHIPPED…
Both Jesus and GOD are offered:

• ‘Praise, Glory, and Honour’

In an insipid and unreverent attempt to claim that Jesus is God (even though Jesus and God are mentioned everywhere as two different and separate entities) Trinitarians try to claim that ‘Praise, Glory, and Honor’ IS WORSHIP!

But how is that when ANYONE and EVERYONE who achieves high office CAN BE ‘Praised, Honored, and Glorified’!!

They are not called ‘Almighty God’, though! Why? Because simple common sense says it’s not true - only Trinitarians try to say so!

At the end of time it is JESUS who is said to be returning (Is to come).
GOD is NEVER said to be ‘Coming’ anywhere let alone ‘RETURNING’…

If you begin with the premise that God cannot dwell on earth as a man, then you will forever be perplexed by verses that clearly demonstrate that the Father's Spirit was in the Son, Jesus.

John 2:19. 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days l will raise it up'.

The problem with your theology is that it only takes account of a selection of scripture. Since your theology fails to take account of all the scriptures, it is bound to be deficient.

Colossians 1:19. 'For it pleased the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell;'

Colossians 2:9. 'For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily'.

How can the fulness of the Father's Spirit dwell on earth without it being worthy of worship?

 

[nPeace]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

You make some good points here.

I especially like that you showed that Jesus honored the father, directing all attention toward God, and God's will.
What I find interesting, about this prayer, which you briefly touched on, is that God's name is first on the list of these important things. Yet many who profess Christianity do not honor God's name, far less, use it.

In fact, they don't seem to think as Jesus did, that God's name should be sanctified, because they address God, or refer to him by a mere title - God.

Have you ever heard them pray at public gatherings? ...and God. ...and God, may you... and God.
The Bible does not mention every prayer of Jesus, and where it does, Jesus addresses his father, "Father...", but he made God's name known. John 17:6

Perhaps one reason the belief in Jesus being God, has survived from its inception, is due to leaving God nameless... even in their translations, which has removed it entirely.

 

[nPeace]

What?
The Bible isn't the only "Scripture", you know.
I think that it is good to know what "platform" the individual debaters are arguing on.

Personally, I argue from a Muslim/Christian platform.
I do not believe that Jesus is God.

I have recently attended a mosque, Methodist church and JW kingdom hall.
What about you?

Not shifting from the topic, but how did you find the meeting at the Kingdom Hall? Did you attend the Public discourse, or the Christian Life and Ministry meeting?

 

[nPeace]

Sorry, no such thing!

Why do you say that… have you not seen me rail against JW doctrine in this forum (in fact, every forum I’ve been in!)

I realize people keep making that mistake with you.
I think it's because you "argue" against some mainstream beliefs, and most people think JWs are the lone culprits in this.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not shifting from the topic, but how did you find the meeting at the Kingdom Hall? Did you attend the Public discourse, or the Christian Life and Ministry meeting?

Public discourse on a Sunday morning?
Yeah, it was OK. There was an internet link to another town on screen, for an interesting Bible study.

 

[nPeace]

Public discourse on a Sunday morning?
Yeah, it was OK. There was an internet link to another town on screen, for an interesting Bible study.

An interesting Bible study?

 

[muhammad_isa]

An interesting Bible study?

Yes, it normally follows an article in the magazine, and microphone is passed around for participation of the congregation.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, it normally follows an article in the magazine, and microphone is passed around for participation of the congregation.

Oh right. The second meeting which follows the public discourse - studying the Bible with the aid of a Watchtower article.
Yes. quite an interesting meeting part. One of the exciting features the children look forward to.
So you were tied in to another congregation.