The lusts of men is the problem

[Spiderman]

Your heart is in the right place Popeadope, but as much as this idea can be out right terrifying, it has to be kept in mind that 151,600 people die in a day and 6,316 people die in an hour. This is all day, every day. If death is an evil, it is rather less exceptional than we would want to think it is. You're one person and you can't save everyone. Even Jesus died on the Cross trying to do so.

If this point needed illustrating here's a world death clock. At time of posting its currently at 54.9 million for this year. That's not exactly what you want to hear, but it will save you some pain thinking that you have to change the world to live up to your ideals. There is a tendency to feel guilty about things that you don't have the power to change and I've found that it is not always healthy to listen to it. It just causes you so much unhappiness in the long-run.

If you focus on things you can change, You can make a difference that way. If life is a gift, its best not to waste it gripped by fear and hatred at the cruelty of the world, but to make the most of it by doing what you can.

Excellent post! I'm delighted and surprised to hear that from a communist. It sort of changes my heart about communists...sort of

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't know what you are talking about. How is encouraging men to mortify and control their lusts and condemning hedonism and the vice of lust lacking any logic?

Sure I'm being simple, but the solution to avoiding unwanted pregnancies is purging oneself of unruly passion, exercising self-control, avoiding fornication and adultery. It's not easy but the answer is simple and logical.

Logic:
reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
"experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"
synonyms: reasoning, line of reasoning, rationale, argument, argumentation

I fail to see how my argument isn't rational. I'm saying self-control, self-discipline, avoiding fornication and adultery, and purity of heart is the answer to avoiding unwanted pregnancies. It's totally rational, logical, and obvious. Not easy though

And women should have as much voice in this as men.

You misjudged me.

I'm not actually in disagreement. People should absolutely exercise self control. I'm saying it's not that simple. Life has an annoying habit of shattering even our best laid plans.
Example a couple is newly expecting and excited. Suddenly layoffs occur and both end up unemployed. Now the couple is now facing the prospect of raising a child, surviving off social welfare, which depending on where they live may not be enough. Maybe they lose their house and have no kin near them to get back on their feet. That wanted baby is now suddenly a burden. Maybe the father turns to drink out of despair and failure. Maybe the woman does not wish to raise her baby in poverty (in first world poverty anyway.)

What to do? Allow the child to starve, allow it's childhood to be fraught with trauma?

Example number 2. A couple is newly married and all is going well. No real signs of anything untoward. Suddenly the wife is expecting and the husband starts to become controlling. The woman brushes it off as perhaps simple over protectiveness, eagerness to be a father. Soon that controlling behavior builds and builds to where it is now outright abuse.
The woman is now trapped. Perhaps she is of immigrant descent and does not know where to turn. She leaves but is now homeless. Or she tries couple therapy. Either way, the prospects of her baby aren't encouraging no matter what.

Who are you or even I, for that matter, to tell these woman what their ultimate decision should be?


My point is, life is messy, life is not ideal, life presents scenarios where it's sometimes in the best interest to abort. And no amount of pretending that simple factors like animalistic lust is the only causal factor changes this. You can pretend that the solution really is that simple, if that makes you feel better. But I feel this is lacking, naive even.
Besides, I prefer to live in reality. Well........sometimes anyway.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm not actually in disagreement. People should absolutely exercise self control. I'm saying it's not that simple. Life has an annoying habit of shattering even our best laid plans.
Example a couple is newly expecting and excited. Suddenly layoffs occur and both end up unemployed. Now the couple is now facing the prospect of raising a child, surviving off social welfare, which depending on where they live may not be enough. Maybe they lose their house and have no kin near them to get back on their feet. That unwanted baby is now suddenly a burden. Maybe the father turns to drink out of despair and failure. Maybe the woman does not wish to raise her baby in poverty (in first world poverty anyway.)

What to do? Allow the child to starve, allow it's childhood to be fraught with trauma?

Example number 2. A couple is newly married and all is going well. No real signs of anything untoward. Suddenly the wife is expecting and the husband starts to become controlling. The woman brushes it off as perhaps simple over protectiveness, eagerness to be a father. Soon that controlling behavior builds and builds to where it is now outright abuse.
The woman is now trapped. Perhaps she is of immigrant descent and does not know where to turn. She leaves but is now homeless. Or she tries couple therapy. Either way, the prospects of her baby aren't encouraging no matter what.

Who are you or even I, for that matter, to tell these woman what their ultimate decision should be?


My point is, life is messy, life is not ideal, life presents scenarios where it's sometimes in the best interest to abort. And no amount of pretending that simple factors like animalistic lust is the only causal factor changes this. You can pretend that the solution really is that simple, if that makes you feel better. But I feel this is lacking, naive even.
Besides, I prefer to live in reality. Well........sometimes anyway.

A nurse informed me that a baby can be left at the emergency room no questions asked. The pregnancy is a burden. Does that mean we can kill a human being? Since you don't believe an unborn human is human, I can see why you have different sentiments.

I see that lust and selfishness is what is responsible for the mess and it sickens me...it is the sheer quantity of abortions that makes me so passionately against it. It shows how sick our world is and how the laws of God are trampled upon and ignored!

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

 

[Laika]

Excellent post! I'm delighted and surprised to hear that from a communist. It sort of changes my heart about communists...sort of

I "get" pro-life arguments as using birth to draw a distinction between a human being with rights and a fetus without rights is pretty arbitrary. You can make the same argument for animal rights, rights of robots and machines, etc because it all depends on where you draw the line. historically, that line was drawn to exclude women, ethnic minorities and poor people without property so its a bit of a red flag that it could move at some point in the future. I'm pro-choice but that's for lack of better ideas more than anything. I don't really want to be critical of feminism or women's right either as that's not necessarily constructive and it does seem extremely intrusive to say women must be incubators against their will.

We may be the villains but Communists are still human. Our evil is as much the result of our humanity as inhumanity. Good intentions can kill. We have the same feelings as everyone else and we share the problem of coming to terms with death. Dealing with Communism's body count has always been an issue for me because, despite everything, I still care. Its complicated and unpleasent but it may not be unusual. The video below may be of interest and may just restore a bit of your faith in humanity. Its the little things that add up to make a difference.

 

[Srivijaya]

mortifying our lusts and sick passions, and cease with fornication!

So, is this your path, mortifying lusts? How are you getting on with that?

 

[oldbadger]

I'm simply saying people need to be strong, self-disciplined, sacrifice, have control of themselves, and cease with fornication, adultery, and hedonism. The answer is ridiculously simple..............................

You're just upset 'cos you went out having sex with a strange girl and got a sexually transmitted disease, or that's what your OP mentioned at the end. Does it hurt?.... that might be why you're ranting at us about what we should be doing. ??

Here's a World plan for you. Stop telling the World what it needs to do and start by putting your own self in order. By the time you've developed to a high state of perfection we'll never hear your demands again because you'll be so at peace with yourself that you'll see the World differently as well.

 

[Spiderman]

You're just upset 'cos you went out having sex with a strange girl and got a sexually transmitted disease, or that's what your OP mentioned at the end. Does it hurt?.... that might be why you're ranting at us about what we should be doing. ??

Here's a World plan for you. Stop telling the World what it needs to do and start by putting your own self in order. By the time you've developed to a high state of perfection we'll never hear your demands again because you'll be so at peace with yourself that you'll see the World differently as well.

Or I'm telling people don't suffer what I've seen and experienced. There is something seriously wrong here and I'm begging people to cease with such vices and avoid the misery and pain!

 

[Spiderman]

So, is this your path, mortifying lusts? How are you getting on with that?

20 decades of the rosary a day, daily mass, no porn, and I only masturbate on Saturday. I went a year and a half without masturbating and the sexual tension was huge and ridiculously unbearable, so I'm setting small goals in that department.

No sex outside of marriage. If I can support a family and discern that I've met the woman God has called me to marry, then I can have sex.

For now I must be celibate and seek enlightenment! God bless!

 

[Laika]

Or I'm telling people don't suffer what I've seen and experienced. There is something seriously wrong here and I'm begging people to cease with such vices and avoid the misery and pain!

My experience is that abstinence and feeling guilty about sex has caused me huge pain. The PDF is an extract from a book I read many years ago that helped me come to accept my feelings about homosexuality.

This is a subject where you are in a great deal of pain and are vulnerable. If you're willing to hear the other side of the argument, that it is sexual repression and abstinence that makes people unhappy, this is the book I'd recommend. Its from the 1930's and is written by a Freudian psychologist named Wilhelm Reich. His theories are still controversial and not widely accepted but Wilhelm Reich is widely regarded as the "grandfather" of the Sexual Revolution of the 60's and 70's. So basically, the intellectual source of all of the things you are arguing against. It will make you uncomfortable because it is much more explicit about sex than we are used to, but it may give you something to think about. It took a while for me to accept it because I had never heard anyone say "sex is good" in a reasoned argument before.

Spoiler: Adult Content

http://www.wilhelmreichtrust.org/sexual_revolution.pdf

 

[SomeRandom]

A nurse informed me that a baby can be left at the emergency room no questions asked. The pregnancy is a burden. Does that mean we can kill a human being? Since you don't believe an unborn human is human, I can see why you have different sentiments.

I see that lust and selfishness is what is responsible for the mess and it sickens me...it is the sheer quantity of abortions that makes me so passionately against it. It shows how sick our world is and how the laws of God are trampled upon and ignored!

Yeah, you realize that giving birth isn't exactly a stroll in the park. Especially without medical intervention. You talk about just giving up a child so flippantly. And indeed childbirth, which belies how little this actually affects you as a man. Not your fault, but it is what it is. Even if the woman survives, even if she does not die from preeclampsia, from medical complications, from abuse, poverty, hunger, whatever, the only reason the hospital even operates in such a way is because they are pragmatic. Hint hint hint. They also (at least where I live) give out free clean needles to known habitual drug users, no questions asked. The reason is as a last ditch effort to help, even if it enables "destructive behavior" if you want. Sometimes a woman does go through with the birth, but that has to be her decision. I'm sorry, but her body, her way or no way.

The rate of abortions is relative. You have to take into account actual population statistics. And whilst we've made leaps and bounds with infant mortality rates, it's not exactly like every single aborted fetus would have lived regardless. Nature is cruel, it doesn't give a damn about right to life or anything like that. Disease, SIDS and other causes of infant mortality still exists, regardless of abortions. So really, giving percentages, you're trying to only protect far less than that which is aborted anyway.
The number just seems scary because pro life organisations massage their language to elicit such passionate responses. Look at well it's worked so far. Three threads in a matter of 24 hours? Now, me, I'm just argumentative and bored. But man, you really went all out.

I admire your zeal, I really do. But I will forever be against it, simply because I favour the rights (human rights) of the mother just as fervently. I will be damned if we, as a society, end up like my ancestors who had to die just to exercise control over their own body.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

Correct, women have a large stake in the debate but it is men not exercising self-control, fornication, and using women as objects to satisfy their lusts that is primarily responsible for abortion.!

Aren't men and women equally responsible for their sexual mishaps? It takes two to tango...

 

[oldbadger]

Or I'm telling people don't suffer what I've seen and experienced. There is something seriously wrong here and I'm begging people to cease with such vices and avoid the misery and pain!

There are several billion people out there and they are all ruled by nature's forces.
They won't hear you. It was ever so .
Nature is a hard master.
I hope you get cured soon, and find some peace.

 

[David T]

Approximately 125,000 innocent people were murdered yesterday to satisfy the lusts of men. The massacre continues each day with the cost of trillions and trillions of tax payers dollars, much grief, and countless wounded broken hearts!

What is the solution? Men need to learn self control, charity, sacrifice, stop using women as objects to satisfy their lusts, cease fornicating, cease stirring up passion with pornography addiction, cease getting women pregnant and leaving them, and learn self-control.

If people obeyed the laws of God, how many unwanted pregnancies would there be??

What is driving me nuts is the fowl hedonism, immodesty, unrully passions, and lust that is promoted and propagated in the media and throughout our sick culture! This can't go on!

All of the weakest, undisciplined, hedonistic, perverted men I have spoken to on the topic are pro-choice. Go figure! I wonder why.

It is the unbridled lusts of men that is responsible for the slaughter houses and trillions of dollars spent each year on abortion!

I'm not on a crusade against what a woman can do with her body or to control anyone. However, many of those babies are female. What about the decision to mutilate and put to death their bodies? Who's the one exercising control over another human being, but the doctor performing the procedure? It isn't right!

Lust is listed in the Bible as one of the seven deadly sins. It is lust and hedonism I despise, not women.

Men, myself included, need to learn self-control. You like fornication and pornography? So do I....it doesn't change the fact that it's evil and damages the mind and soul. Last girl I was with gave me a sexually transmitted disease and I wore a condom. So much for safe sex.

We could save countless trillions of dollars and many lives and broken hearts, and stop the spread of STD's by exercising self-control, obeying God's laws, mortifying our lusts and sick passions, and cease with fornication!

Pope wb. Don't worry about it. The population increases by 80,000,000 a year totally unabated. Reality isn't our home, the intellect is lost inside its own house.

 

[David T]

Perhaps we need to step back to a more "Victorian" culture in our society ....

not that I can really talk from experience, being Androgen deficient ( congenital eunuch )

I say no to horses everywhere. Also, I say no to really bad hats. Ok Elib you are Jewish you are allowed on religious grounds like the ammish... And real cowboys.

 

[Srivijaya]

20 decades of the rosary a day, daily mass, no porn, and I only masturbate on Saturday. I went a year and a half without masturbating and the sexual tension was huge and ridiculously unbearable, so I'm setting small goals in that department.

No sex outside of marriage. If I can support a family and discern that I've met the woman God has called me to marry, then I can have sex.

For now I must be celibate and seek enlightenment! God bless!

I admire your dedication, though it seems to bring you little contentment.

I have one other observation though, although I'm not claiming this is true for you. It seems many people who hold your views are radical defenders of the fetus at any cost. Once this child is born, however, it's another matter.

Child poverty is a growing problem in the UK and it is caused by conservative policies of cutting benefits to vulnerable families. Conservative news papers are full of vitriol against the poor who produce 'mouths to feed' which they can't support and expect the tax payer to pick up the tab. Kids from poor homes are considered nothing but a troublesome burden and so it goes on. The self-same conservatives who so desperately want to save the fetus, seem often to despise the child.

Where's the justice in that?

Not saying theses are your views because I don't know you but it is a feature of the conservative mindset here.

 

[Spiderman]

Aren't men and women equally responsible for their sexual mishaps? It takes two to tango...

I've mainly seen men responsible for rape, incest, pornography addiction, trafficking, and manipulation of people for sex. There are exceptions. My mother is one, but I see sexual perversion and addiction more prevalent among men, so it is men's lust that I'm addressing.

I should have chosen a different title for the thread, but chose that title so women who've had abortions know they are not to blame

 

[blü 2]

The virgin Mary at Fatima warned the world about the rise of communism and the coming of the second world war.

Communism seeks economic fairness and social justice, which are proper aims.

The thing wrong with communism is that it doesn't work.

The reason why the Virgin Mary warned against communism was not because it sought those aims, and not because it doesn't work, but because (a) it included sentiments opposing religion (b) the pope saw this as attacking his authority and (c) RCC miracles conform to RCC opinion.

 

[Spiderman]

I admire your dedication, though it seems to bring you little contentment.

I have one other observation though, although I'm not claiming this is true for you. It seems many people who hold your views are radical defenders of the fetus at any cost. Once this child is born, however, it's another matter.

Child poverty is a growing problem in the UK and it is caused by conservative policies of cutting benefits to vulnerable families. Conservative news papers are full of vitriol against the poor who produce 'mouths to feed' which they can't support and expect the tax payer to pick up the tab. Kids from poor homes are considered nothing but a troublesome burden and so it goes on. The self-same conservatives who so desperately want to save the fetus, seem often to despise the child.

Where's the justice in that?

Not saying theses are your views because I don't know you but it is a feature of the conservative mindset here.

You bring up good points. I'm much more concerned about the suffering children in our world than the fetus, but it is the sheer quantity of abortions that bothers me and the hedonism that fuels it.

I believe that nothing is quite as offensive to God as that.

But me personally, I'm more concerned about the living and their suffering. I believe however that sin harms everyone and brings about chastisement from God. 50 million killings from abortion due to lust and hedonism is crying to heaven for vengeance!

Your criticism of the right conservative stance is worth pondering. Thanks

 

[blü 2]

Or I'm telling people don't suffer what I've seen and experienced. There is something seriously wrong here and I'm begging people to cease with such vices and avoid the misery and pain!

Or at least to use a condom.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've mainly seen men responsible for rape, incest, pornography addiction, trafficking, and manipulation of people for sex. There are exceptions. My mother is one, but I see sexual perversion and addiction more prevalent among men, so it is men's lust that I'm addressing.

I suspect that it's more prevalent with women than society is willing to admit. For obvious reasons (a man admitting to being raped by a woman can be very emasculating for some.) Though I think your heart is in the right place, your title is still quite........explosive shall we say.