The Mahdi in the Quran.

[Link]

Salam

This thread, I've shown the concept of the Mahdi who plays a similar role as Mohammad to his city and the cities around it but to the whole world, as far as the issues of destruction of cities and world goes.

That is the Mahdi if believers are oppressed and oppresses don't cease their oppression, will be who through God destroys the oppressors just as people of Noah were destroyed, just as Ad was destroyed.

We saw that if people rebel and disbelieve, not a town/city (who disbelieves) but will be destroyed by God and we saw that God doesn't punish or destroy unless he sends a Messenger.

So far, this concept of this type of warner, is yet to come to the whole world. We saw also the role of miracles in all that, and that miracles need to be available for God to punish people in this regard.

Keeping in mind that Mohammad is the final end of all Prophets and there is no Prophets after him, we can realize although the Mahdi is a Messenger, he is not a Prophet, he doesn't receive a revelation from God to be held on to by the people. Rather, he revives the Quran.

As for him being from Ahlulbayt, as Mohammad sealed revelations, and the only way people have authority is by proof from God, we can deduce that the Mahdi is a member of Ahlulbayt.

We saw the Ahlulbayts as far as Men go, are thirteen men, one founder and Twelve Successors, and then there is also chosen ladies like Sarah, Mariam, and Fatima in their respective chosen families.

We saw that the Quran emphasized on the number twelve with respect to succession and covenant taken. The 12th Successor with Mohammad has to be thus the final leader and guide to humanity, because revelations have been sealed.

Aside from that, the Quran talks about there being a witness from every people in many places, and that on the day of judgment, every people will be called with a witness from themselves and talks about how every people will be called with their leader on the day of judgment.

This shows there must be a guide, and so the Shiite Twelver concept is complete now. The 12th is not a founder of religion, he revives the religion so it would look like it's new.

All the hadiths in confirmation of this have to be seen in true, for the Quran confirms these hadiths. Another concept of Ghayba is realized by the theme of stars. There is theme of stars in Quran, and if you keep this in mind, you will see that it predicted the Ghayba of one of the Imams. Historically, this makes sense to be the Mahdi. In the past it was Elyas and Jesus who went to Ghayba, and Elyas who remained the guide on earth but was hidden till Mohammad, from the household of Moses and Aaron.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Salam

This thread, I've shown the concept of the Mahdi who plays a similar role as Mohammad to his city and the cities around it but to the whole world, as far as the issues of destruction of cities and world goes.

That is the Mahdi if believers are oppressed and oppresses don't cease their oppression, will be who through God destroys the oppressors just as people of Noah were destroyed, just as Ad was destroyed.

We saw that if people rebel and disbelieve, not a town/city (who disbelieves) but will be destroyed by God and we saw that God doesn't punish or destroy unless he sends a Messenger.

So far, this concept of this type of warner, is yet to come to the whole world. We saw also the role of miracles in all that, and that miracles need to be available for God to punish people in this regard.

Keeping in mind that Mohammad is the final end of all Prophets and there is no Prophets after him, we can realize although the Mahdi is a Messenger, he is not a Prophet, he doesn't receive a revelation from God to be held on to by the people. Rather, he revives the Quran.

As for him being from Ahlulbayt, as Mohammad sealed revelations, and the only way people have authority is by proof from God, we can deduce that the Mahdi will me a member of Ahlulbayt.

We saw the Ahlulbayts as far as Men go, are thirteen men, one founder and Twelve Successors, and then there is also chosen ladies like Sarah, Mariam, and Fatima in their respective chosen families.

We saw that the Quran emphasized on the number twelve with respect to succession and covenant taken. The 12th Successor with Mohammad has to be thus the final leader and guide to humanity, because revelations have been sealed.

Aside from that, the Quran talks about there being a witness from every people in many places, and that on the day of judgment, every people will be called with a witness from themselves and talks about how every people will be called with their leader on the day of judgment.

This shows there must be a guide, and so the Shiite Twelver concept is complete now. The 12th is not a founder of religion, he revives the religion so it would look like it's new.

All the hadiths in confirmation of this have to be seen in true, for the Quran confirms these hadiths. Another concept of Ghayba is realized by the theme of stars. There is theme of stars in Quran, and if you keep this in mind, you will see that it predicted the Ghayba of one of the Imams. Historically, this makes sense to be the Mahdi. In the past it was Elyas and Jesus who went to Ghayba, and Elyas who remained the guide on earth but was hidden till Mohammad, from the household of Moses and Aaron.

I see in this post, all you have proven is the OP link posted below, has foundation in Truth and a scope that is worldwide, inclusive of Islam;

The Great Deception of Christianity - Foretold in the Bible

Baha'u'llah has offered;

"We verily have not fallen short of Our duty to exhort men, and to deliver that whereunto I was bidden by God, the Almighty, the All-Praised. Had they hearkened unto Me, they would have beheld the earth another earth.” And again: “Is there any excuse left for anyone in this Revelation? No, by God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne! My signs have encompassed the earth, and My power enveloped all mankind, and yet the people are wrapped in a strange sleep!”

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Peace Tony,

I understand your sentiment. You see Prophets sent in the past, but rejected, then people follow those Prophets after time, and reject the new Prophets and every covenant renewed, you see people don't believe.

This theme should make us take seriously the issue of religion, but it should not make us accept false Prophets. It should make us take seriously the issue of rejecting anyone claiming to be a Prophet, but again, it should not make us equate true Prophets and true books from God with false Prophets and with doesn't beseem to be attributed to God. In the case of Baha'allah, I already made a thread about it.

This is about the Mahdi in Quran. Unfortunately, yes, the way I presented verses and see them about the Mahdi, for you, contradict the Bab and Baha'allah version of the Mahdi.

This isn't about Babism or Bahaism, it's about my presentation of the Mahdi in Quran, as a requested by a Sunni Muslim. That said, not every thread has to be a discussion on Bab and Baha'allah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This isn't about Babism or Bahaism, it's about my presentation of the Mahdi in Quran, as a requested by a Sunni Muslim. That said, not every thread has to be a discussion on Bab and Baha'allah.

That is the Quandary Link, it is either about them or it is not. It is fair that I leave your OP with this post.

"Of the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least." (Surah Ahzab 33:23)

So in all peace and friendship I can only

…give good news to those who believe that theirs is a high rank with their Lord. (Surah Yunus 10:2)

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

This thread, I've shown the concept of the Mahdi who plays a similar role as Mohammad to his city and the cities around it but to the whole world, as far as the issues of destruction of cities and world goes.

That is the Mahdi if believers are oppressed and oppresses don't cease their oppression, will be who through God destroys the oppressors just as people of Noah were destroyed, just as Ad was destroyed.

We saw that if people rebel and disbelieve, not a town/city (who disbelieves) but will be destroyed by God and we saw that God doesn't punish or destroy unless he sends a Messenger.

So far, this concept of this type of warner, is yet to come to the whole world. We saw also the role of miracles in all that, and that miracles need to be available for God to punish people in this regard.

Keeping in mind that Mohammad is the final end of all Prophets and there is no Prophets after him, we can realize although the Mahdi is a Messenger, he is not a Prophet, he doesn't receive a revelation from God to be held on to by the people. Rather, he revives the Quran.

As for him being from Ahlulbayt, as Mohammad sealed revelations, and the only way people have authority is by proof from God, we can deduce that the Mahdi is a member of Ahlulbayt.

We saw the Ahlulbayts as far as Men go, are thirteen men, one founder and Twelve Successors, and then there is also chosen ladies like Sarah, Mariam, and Fatima in their respective chosen families.

We saw that the Quran emphasized on the number twelve with respect to succession and covenant taken. The 12th Successor with Mohammad has to be thus the final leader and guide to humanity, because revelations have been sealed.

Aside from that, the Quran talks about there being a witness from every people in many places, and that on the day of judgment, every people will be called with a witness from themselves and talks about how every people will be called with their leader on the day of judgment.

This shows there must be a guide, and so the Shiite Twelver concept is complete now. The 12th is not a founder of religion, he revives the religion so it would look like it's new.

All the hadiths in confirmation of this have to be seen in true, for the Quran confirms these hadiths. Another concept of Ghayba is realized by the theme of stars. There is theme of stars in Quran, and if you keep this in mind, you will see that it predicted the Ghayba of one of the Imams. Historically, this makes sense to be the Mahdi. In the past it was Elyas and Jesus who went to Ghayba, and Elyas who remained the guide on earth but was hidden till Mohammad, from the household of Moses and Aaron.

Among Muslims there is a generally a belief that, when Mahdi comes, He will conquer the world, and establishes the true Religion of Islam. This view is not completely compatible with what Hadithes says. See for example this Hadith:

11- Muntakhabul Basair: Through the same chains of narrators, it is narrated
from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that he said: Amirul Momineen (a.s.) used to say:
“Muddaththir will be there during the period of Rajat.
Someone asked: O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), is there a second life before
Qiyamat? And then death after that?
He replied: Yes, by Allah, during the period of Rajat there would be more disbelief.”

Now, according to Hadithes, Period of Rajat is after Imam Qaim passes away. It is when Imam Hussen returns. But notice according to this Hadith, even after the Qaim passed away, and Imam Hussein returned, there is More Disbelief than before!

Other hadithes tells us, the Qaim will be imprisoned similar to Prophet Joseph! That hadith again rejects the idea that the Qaim will be ruling literally.

And here is a Hadith that tells us, Qaim will not have a worldly kingdom:


Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: O Mufaddal, you have made a nice
statement. Now tell me in what type of our Rajat do you believe? While some of our miserly Shia consider that the Almighty Allah will give material rule and wealth and make Imam Mahdi (a.s.) as the ruler. But woe unto them, when was our kingdom usurped that it would be restored to us?
Mufaddal said: Your kingdom has never been usurped from you, because it is in fact prophethood, messengership, Imamate and successorship. Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: O Mufaddal, if our Shia had pondered on the Holy Quran, they would never have doubted in our excellence......

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here are some other verses about the Mahdi:



"The Day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good through his Faith." (6:158). It is recorded in Bihar, that Imam Ali and Imam Sadiq said this verse denotes the advent of the awaited Qaim from us.



In another words, according to that verse, after Rise of Qaim, if someone had not believed in Quran before, but begins to believe in Quran after rise of Qaim, His belief will not do any good anymore, because, at that time, believing in Qaim, and His New Book will Profit him.

The Quranic evidence of abrogation of Quranic Laws is in surrah Al-Hajj:

“Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33


Therefore according to the verse, the Quranic Rites are beneficial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven.
The term Ancient House in Islamic traditions is described as a heavenly Kabba, a place from where Quran was revealed to mankind. Thus, according to the above verse, after a certain time, these Quranic Laws go up again to the ancient house (meaning God will take then back, as no benefit in them anymore).


, and the time of ascension of the Quranic ordinances is in the 32nd Surrah:

“He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.” 32:5



And the evidence of abrogation of Quran and coming of a new Book are in these Traditions recorded in Bihar and Al-Kafi:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”



And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:

“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71


And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam MuhammadBaqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.”

(Meaning people do not agree to accept the new Book)!!.


And in Bihar in another Hadith, Imam said, “Qaim rises with a new Cause, a new Book, new Judgement which is sever on Arabs.”

The Quranic evidence of the Book being severe on Arabs is in Surrah AlQamar:

"The Day the caller calls to an undesirable event" 56:6
It is recorded this verse is regarding, Imam Mahdi, who calls people to that which they dislike and deny. That is the New Book that Qaim calls them to follow!

 

[Link]

When you interpret Quran not according to clear signs and built on unclarity, and abandon mutuwatur hadiths for odd interpretations of a few, than it's not that guidance is not clear, it's that you are lead by conjecture and desires.

 

[Link]

Among Muslims there is a generally a belief that, when Mahdi comes, He will conquer the world, and establishes the true Religion of Islam. This view is not completely compatible with what Hadithes says.

There are a lot of hadiths that say he will do this, so you are saying, it contradicts other hadiths. Well, this would not be a surprise if true, almost all hadiths are contradicted by another.

To me it's clear in Quran, I don't have to go metaphoric mustashibihat on the day of judgment verses and say refers to Baha'allah, and etc, because I have no attachment to bahaism. You obviously are attached, to interpret every verse in Bahaism way. The same is true with your knowledge of hadiths, you aren't aware of the mutuwatur hadiths that contradict Bahaism or are aware but don't care.

At any rate, I've provided a clear description from Quran about future promises of warning of destruction of cities and humans in general, if they reject the Mahdi.

The Mahdi is yet to come per Quran, but of course, if you go all that is mutashabihat, and say "destruction" really is metaphorical, there was no destroyed nations of the past, day of judgment is metaphoric, miracles are all metaphoric, etc, you can make up any new religion by those standards. It's just totally baseless and based on conjecture, but whatever suits you.

By the way "raja" was literal resurrection period of many of dead people of the past, it has support in the Quran. A group of disbelievers will be raised from every community that denied God's signs before the day of judgment per Quran, while on the day of judgment, everyone is raised together.

I don't know what do of all the hadiths about Raja to be honest, I haven't thought all of them, but there is no reason to assume the literal is not what is meant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here is another verse about Mahdi:


"Lo! ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards: but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss; for God is the Rich and ye are the poor: and if you turn back, He will change you for another people, and they shall not be of our like." (Surrah Muhammad)

How will Allah change Arabs with another people? Hadithes tells us, Allah will send Mahdi to Persians, and chooses them over Arabs!

Muhammad was asked who were the people He referred to as "another people", who were to replace the Arabs. One of His followers, Salmán, a Persian, was sitting near Him. Muhammad patted on the legs of Salmán and said. "He, and his people." And then He continued: "By the True One, in Whose hand Is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely, men from Persia shall reach it. "(This tradition is accepted by both Sunnis and Shia's and is included by Nasafi in his book, Vol. IV, page 169, as well as by Muhammad Farid Vajdi, in his book, third edition, page 676.)


Here is another evidence:


It is narrated from Ali bin Husain from Muhammad Attar from Muhammad bin Hasan Raazi from Muhammad bin Ali Kufi from Ibne Mahbub from Abil Mughra from Ibne Abi Yafur from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“Woe unto the arrogants of the Arabs from a soon evil.”

I said: “May I be your ransom! How many of the Arabs will be with the
Qaim (a.s.)?”
He said: “Very few.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link
I don't interpret the Quran from myself. I use recorded traditions, and prove this is how infallible Imams interpreted them!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here is another proof, and prophecy that came true!:

It is recorded in Biharulanwar, vol 51-53,:

And Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said with regard to the following
verse:
قُلْ هُوَ الْقَادِرُ عَلَى أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ
يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعاً وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ


“Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We repeat the communications that they may understand.” (Surah Anam 6:65)


“‘From above you’ means the advent of Dajjal and the call from the sky.
‘From beneath your feet’ means the splitting of the earth. ‘Throw you into
confusion’ denotes difference about religion and ridiculing each other. ‘Make some of you taste the fighting of others’ means that you will kill each other and all this will occur among Muslims only.”

 

[Link]

@Link
I don't interpret the Quran from myself. I use recorded traditions, and prove this is how infallible Imams interpreted them!

You use some hadiths but don't acknowledge other hadiths that interpret those hadiths and are not presenting a holistic picture.

Anyways, I've proven my case for the Twelver Shiite understanding of the Mahdi in this thread through Quran. There are mutuwatur hadiths I can flood that support this interpretation as well.

 

[Link]

And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."

There are many hadiths that say each Imam is a Qaim but then there is THE QAIM and who is intended by that is someone else.

We have prayers from Ahlulbayt and many hadiths that interpret 17:71 as that there will always be a leader on earth. Those are found in Al-kafi as well from the Nabi (s).

This is just an example of hadiths you quote but then we have so many hadiths interpreting it to mean other then what Bahais say.

But you qoute hadiths and ignore plethora of others. You do this with every hadith you cite as proof.

 

[Link]

This is an example, and flooding hadiths without contextualizing it with other hadith, can only be used as proof as people ignorant of other hadiths. Therefore on verse 17:71, I will quote some.

في الكافي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال بإمامهم الذي بين أظهرهم وهو قائم أهل زمانه.

in Al-kafi on authority of Al-sadiq (as), he said, "the leader among their presence and he is the Riser of their time"

والقمّي عن الباقر عليه السلام في هذه الآية قال يجيء رسول الله صلىَّ اللهُ عليه وآله وسلم في قومه وعليّ عليه السلام في قومه والحَسَن عليه السلام في قومه والحُسين عليه السلام في قومه وكلّ من ماتَ بين ظهرانيّ قوم جاؤا معه.

An Al-qummi from Al-Baqir (as) regarding this verse, said , "The messenger (s) will come among his people, and Ali (as) among his people, and Hassan (as) among his people and Hussain (as) among his people and each who dies among his his (the leader) presence of people will come with him (the leader).

والعياشي ما يقرب من معناه.

And from Al-Ayashi what is close to meaning.

وفي الكافي والعياشي عن الباقر عليه السلام لما نزلت هذه الآية قال المسلمون يا رسول الله ألست إمام الناس كلّهم أجمعين فقال أنا رسول الله إلى الناس أجمعين ولكن سيكون من بعدي أئمّة على الناس من الله من أهل بيتي يقومون في الناس فيكذّبون ويظلمهم أئمّة الكفر والضلال وأشياعهم فمن والاهم واتبعهم وصدّقهم فهو مني ومعي وسيلقاني الا ومن ظلمهم وكذّبهم فليس منّي ولا معي وأنا منه بريء.

And from Al-alkafi and from Al-ayashi from Al-Baqir (as)

When this verse was revealed, the Muslims said "O Messenger of God, are you not the leader of all humans all together?" "I am a Messenger of God to all people all together but after me there will be leaders upon the people from God from the folks of my house they will rise among the people and deny them and behaving unjustly towards them will the leaders of disbelief and misguidance and their followers so whoever follows them and verifies them so he is from me and with me and will meet me - alas - whoever is unjust towards them and denies them so he is not from me nor with me and and I am free from them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When you interpret Quran not according to clear signs and built on unclarity, and abandon mutuwatur hadiths for odd interpretations of a few, than it's not that guidance is not clear, it's that you are lead by conjecture and desires.

That is the quandary Link, what InvestigateTruth posted was clear to me. The key is it is not built upon unclarity, it is built upon knowledge of a fulfilled promise and explanations given in a Book, just as is offered from the Quran.

The same is true with your knowledge of hadiths, you aren't aware of the mutuwatur hadiths that contradict Bahaism or are aware but don't care.

It is all about Truth Link, we care a great deal, just as you do.

So this is applicable to your stance as well. It does depend as to which frame of reference is based in the Truth. If Truth is on your side, then yes we as Baha'i have overlooked important aspects of the Quran. Likewise, if the Truth is that given by Baha'u'llah, then your stance is against Truth and it is you that are not seeing in the Quran, what is to be seen.

I can only say that to say Allah would send no more Messages after Muhammad is not humble and does not allow for the fact that it is Allah that does what Allah willeth and it is not for us to question Allahs Will.

The question to ponder is, "how is it that people of all Faiths of all Nations have now embraced the One God, Allah, offer reverence to Muhammad and the Quran, if the Message that allowed that to happen was not of Allah and complimentary of Muhammad and the Quran?

RegardsTony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is an example, and flooding hadiths without contextualizing it with other hadith, can only be used as proof as people ignorant of other hadiths. Therefore on verse 17:71, I will quote some.

في الكافي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال بإمامهم الذي بين أظهرهم وهو قائم أهل زمانه.

in Al-kafi on authority of Al-sadiq (as), he said, "the leader among their presence and he is the Riser of their time"

والقمّي عن الباقر عليه السلام في هذه الآية قال يجيء رسول الله صلىَّ اللهُ عليه وآله وسلم في قومه وعليّ عليه السلام في قومه والحَسَن عليه السلام في قومه والحُسين عليه السلام في قومه وكلّ من ماتَ بين ظهرانيّ قوم جاؤا معه.

An Al-qummi from Al-Baqir (as) regarding this verse, said , "The messenger (s) will come among his people, and Ali (as) among his people, and Hassan (as) among his people and Hussain (as) among his people and each who dies among his his (the leader) presence of people will come with him (the leader).

والعياشي ما يقرب من معناه.

And from Al-Ayashi what is close to meaning.

وفي الكافي والعياشي عن الباقر عليه السلام لما نزلت هذه الآية قال المسلمون يا رسول الله ألست إمام الناس كلّهم أجمعين فقال أنا رسول الله إلى الناس أجمعين ولكن سيكون من بعدي أئمّة على الناس من الله من أهل بيتي يقومون في الناس فيكذّبون ويظلمهم أئمّة الكفر والضلال وأشياعهم فمن والاهم واتبعهم وصدّقهم فهو مني ومعي وسيلقاني الا ومن ظلمهم وكذّبهم فليس منّي ولا معي وأنا منه بريء.

And from Al-alkafi and from Al-ayashi from Al-Baqir (as)

When this verse was revealed, the Muslims said "O Messenger of God, are you not the leader of all humans all together?" "I am a Messenger of God to all people all together but after me there will be leaders upon the people from God from the folks of my house they will rise among the people and deny them and behaving unjustly towards them will the leaders of disbelief and misguidance and their followers so whoever follows them and verifies them so he is from me and with me and will meet me - alas - whoever is unjust towards them and denies them so he is not from me nor with me and and I am free from them.

These hadithes regarding 17:71 are also true. So, what is the problem?
Many verses of the Quran can have more than one correct interpretations.

As I quoted before a Hadith from Muhammad, that each verse of Quran has an apparent meaning, and then totally 7 layers of meanings, which are concealed. This is why you see different interpretations about same verse is given by Imams.


A hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[9]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."

 

[Link]

Tony, the way I See it, regarding the Mahdi and Ahlulbayt in Quran, they had so much scenarios that could've happened, and which prophecy will come about, wasn't known in the past and still is not known.

The scary one is the following:

إِنْ يَشَأْ يُذْهِبْكُمْ أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ وَيَأْتِ بِآخَرِينَ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكَ قَدِيرًا

In chapter 4, verse 133

"If he wishes he can make you disappear O humans/people and bring about other people and God is capable of this"

In Suratal Yaseen, there was but one believer in those sent.

The future is not written in stone, it mutates and our actions can change destiny. I want the world to accept the Mahdi.

And if Bab and Baha'allah are Prophets, I would want the world to accept them, but from what I perceive, the Mahdi is the twelfth branch of way that is one way after Mohammad, cut into twelve branches as ways themselves, and they are the kin of revelation in 42:23, Mohammad and his family, are the object of love in 42:23 commanded by Quran.

The Mahdi and salvation all lies, in people, letting go of hate towards the blessed tree of light, Mohammad and his family.

Imam Ali to Imam Hassan Al-askari were Messengers but not Anbiya (receivers of a book to be held on to by the people).

4:59, is impossible now, because there is no Messenger among us to refer disputes back to, just past Messengers who left a legacy, and the commands of Ahlulbayt, we don't know for sure Ahlulbayt (as) commanded them except what we can verify by Quran and reason and light.

The leader is hidden, so we won't unite, humanity, till he is back. All we can do in the process is patch work. There are too many errors in Islam right now to fix.

It can't be done by a fallible. We need miracles in the open to make people take the Mahdi seriously, and then, the dispute will back to the issue of sorcery, are the miracles signs of God or sorcery, like it always is the dispute.

When it's not that dispute, things are relatively unclear..... but the family of Mohammad position in Quran is clear to me, and the many conditional prophecies of Quran regarding the Mahdi of which I shared some, are clear to me.

He is the greatest good news if he is received on good terms, the great mercy that will envelop everyone if we strive now, but the greatest warning of Quran before the last day, and if we reject him, literally, we will face what the people of Ad and Thamood faced, because we are lead by Gog and Magog in this century, and oppressors are ruling by sorcery which is confirmed outwardly and inwardly.

The Quran too many dark spells on too many of it's chapters and verses. The blindness is strong. All this, we have to quickly remove and heal the evil, so that the Mahdi can be a mercy on his return.

The miracles manifest a clear day light regarding the proof, but we see people act unjustly towards miracles. In the case of the Messengers Ali to the Hassan Al-Askari (peace be all of them and Fatima), their miracles, were such they were dismissed on creating propaganda that their followers and all those who would witness and report miracles were liars. But it was so widely narrated that Sunnis didn't even deny it historically, they reported in their books and called them instead of signs or miracles to be "karamat" that God bestows his friends, but are not identical to miracles and signs of Prophets.

This is despite some of the stuff they report in their sources was liking healing the blind literally, which we see is a sign from God with Jesus, and is not just a honor that God bestows his friends.

Miracles were out in the open, Sunnis called them Karimat and Shiites emphasized they were true signs and proofs. Historically, both Sunni and Shiites agree on some of them.

As for the Mahdi, he is in Ghayba so for God not to destroy humanity so quickly and so to give rest from the sun light of truth and in this dark night, and dark nights have passed, it's the darkest of all nights, for it appears miracles were but fables of the past, made up stories, history exaggerated, and so on and so forth....

But there is a way to truth still, and God promises he will guide by the guide who turns to God often. Miracles are still here like said in Du'a Nudba, they are still here and present, but the way to access it, is devotion to God and prayer.

Recognize that the Quran says the straight path is the leader and guide, and everything will become easy inshallah. He will meet you by God's permission and show you miracles, just prepare yourself to not reject him or accuse the signs of being sorcery.

Make sure you are in a submissive state and pray God guides you to him, and inshallah, God will guide you through the Mahdi.

 

[Link]

These hadithes regarding 17:71 are also true. So, what is the problem.

I know they are true, it's just you quoted one out of context and I put into context of the others. And also, it refutes bahaism, as you have no Imam in the present time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, the way I See it, regarding the Mahdi and Ahlulbayt in Quran, they had so much scenarios that could've happened, and which prophecy will come about, wasn't known in the past and still is not known.

I will read this latter Link, I have an exam soon and will finish that before thinking about what you have offered.

My thought about all this, is how the Quran corrects Christian doctrines and yet no Christian will see Muhammad, or the Quran, has any authority to do so.

This pattern is repeated with each of God's Messengers, history proves this so and history would suggest the same thing will happen with the Mahdi, despite how clear Muslims may think they know the Book.

It will be a few hours before I get back to this. Stay well and happy Link.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I know they are true, it's just you quoted one out of context and I put into context of the others. And also, it refutes bahaism, as you have no Imam in the present time.

I see now what you mean.
You are saying that since, according to the Hadithes there must always be an Imam for people, then, where is the Imam for Bahais?

In our view, This Hadith means, that God does not leave humanity without guidance. So, whenever humanity needs a new guidance, God will raise an Imam (guide) for them.
Similar to Islam. After the 11th Imam passed in the year 260AH, for a long time there was no Imam among people. It is because, the guidance of the Quran and hadithes, were sufficient for guiding Muslims. God would raise the Imam among people only, when, the Muslims have corrupted and misinterpreted the Quran, and the Mosques are full of Muslims, but there is no guidance in them, as religious leaders become corrupted. It is only when the Religion of God becomes corrupted, and people invent their own interpretations, then God will manifest the Imam. For Bahais is the same. We are told, once the Religion of God needs to be renewed, God will make next guidance (Imam) manifest for humanity.