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The Marriage of A'isha and Apologetic Myopia

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Most Muslims, at least Sunni ones, do view Muhammad as sinless. A lot of Qur'anists don't view him as such and believe that he was prone to sinning, and they're viewed as heretics by a lot of Sunni Muslims as a result of that, among other things.

Furthermore, most Muslims view Muhammad as both the most recent and greatest prophet. At the very least, most Muslims don't see any prophet as greater than Muhammad, but to say that Jesus, Abraham, or any other prophet is greater than him? I have never heard a single Islamic scholar or regular Muslim say that.

That's not what Sunni Muslims taught me, in the Koran the angel tells Mohammad to take no more wives, and he goes ahead and takes another wife, that was given as evidence by Sunni Muslims that even Mohammad wasn;t perfect, Muslims teach that all the prophets are equal. Not one greater than the others. This is what I was taught at the local Mosque by Sunni Mulsims, I suspect you haven't spent much time at the mosque studying Islam.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not what Sunni Muslims taught me, in the Koran the angel tells Mohammad to take no more wives, and he goes ahead and takes another wife, that was given as evidence by Sunni Muslims that even Mohammad wasn;t perfect, Muslims teach that all the prophets are equal. Not one greater than the others.

I'm not sure what you're talking about right now, but I have a feeling it's one of those issues that historical and scriptural context drastically changes.

Let me do something, though. I think it will be relevant to this discussion.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not what Sunni Muslims taught me, in the Koran the angel tells Mohammad to take no more wives, and he goes ahead and takes another wife, that was given as evidence by Sunni Muslims that even Mohammad wasn;t perfect, Muslims teach that all the prophets are equal. Not one greater than the others. This is what I was taught at the local Mosque by Sunni Mulsims, I suspect you haven't spent much time at the mosque studying Islam.

I'm not sure what you're talking about right now, but I have a feeling it's one of those issues that historical and scriptural context drastically changes.

Let me do something, though. I think it will be relevant to this discussion.

Here: This is a link explaining the majority scholarly consensus regarding the Sunni view of whether prophets (including Muhammad) are sinless:

https://islamqa.info/en/7208

Your statement that Muhammad directly violated a command from God by taking another wife explicitly contradicts the view that prophets don't intentionally sin.
 
Here: This is a link explaining the majority scholarly consensus regarding the Sunni view of whether prophets (including Muhammad) are sinless:

https://islamqa.info/en/7208

Your statement that Muhammad directly violated a command from God by taking another wife explicitly contradicts the view that prophets don't intentionally sin.

Not trying to take sides here, but the article you quoted says that Prophets did make 'mistakes.' The article's point is that, since they have been forgiven, they are not considered sins. It then goes on to say that, despite these mistakes, assume that everything he did was correct because he is the best example available.

It's a slightly different point to how you're portraying it.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Not trying to take sides here, but the article you quoted says that Prophets did make 'mistakes.' The article's point is that, since they have been forgiven, they are not considered sins. It then goes on to say that, despite these mistakes, assume that everything he did was correct because he is the best example available.

It's a slightly different point to how you're portraying it.

Yes, and "mistake" in this case is not an intentional sin, as the article explains. For example:

From the article said:
We may note that in this case, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not have any clear text so he made ijtihaad and consulted his companions, and he made a mistake in deciding what was the best thing to do.

Cases like this are few in the Sunnah. We have to believe that the Messengers and Prophets are infallible, and we know that they did not disobey Allaah. We should also beware of the words of those who want to cast aspersions on his conveying of the Message by referring to the fact that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made some mistakes with regard to earthly matters. There is a huge difference between the former and the latter. We should also beware of those misguided people who say that some of the rulings of sharee’ah which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us about are his own personal ijtihaad which could be right or wrong. What would these misguided people say in response to the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): “Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired” [al-Najm 53:3]? We ask Allaah to protect us from confusion and misguidance, And Allaah knows best.

(Source.)

Saying that Muhammad directly violated a command from God (relayed to him through an angel) is completely irreconcilable with the view that prophets only make minor, unintentional mistakes as opposed to intentionally sinning.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Yes, and "mistake" in this case is not an intentional sin, as the article explains. For example:



(Source.)

Saying that Muhammad directly violated a command from God (relayed to him through an angel) is completely irreconcilable with the view that prophets only make minor, unintentional mistakes as opposed to intentionally sinning.

Yes but its in the Koran, you can't deny that, the angel told him not to take another wife and he did it anyway.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Oh, "If I could just taste a drop of his swear or glimpse his face" aren't very different at all from many of the things I've heard over the years. These are some of the things I've heard both from scholars and a lot of the Muslims I know, including my immediate family:

• Muhammad's sweat smelled like musk.

• Muhammad's face looked like a piece of the moon.

• Muhammad's hand "smelled better than musk and was colder than ice." (I honestly don't know what the latter is supposed to mean, since being so cold doesn't strike me as a desirable thing.)

• Muhammad had an aura of veneration so powerful that some people couldn't look at him and describe him.

Some Muslims might differ on the authenticity of some of the above descriptions, but what I do know for sure is that many Muslims revere him to such extents. Many Muslims hang his name on walls or make it their profile picture on Facebook, for example (since drawing him is haram).



I don't think you'll find many Muslims who will deny that they venerate Muhammad, but praying to him? That's not in line with mainstream Islamic teachings at all.
No, not praying to him, but some of the practices do come off as excessive when it comes to what Muslims teach about strict monotheism and their practice of venerating Mohammad, the Ka'ba and the Black Stone. I don't know, it just seems odd to me, but I try not to judge since us Catholics and the Orthodox have our practices misinterpreted and lied about by outsiders all the time.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
DS is asking you, however. Why don't you do it since you're so certain the verses detailing Muhammad's disobedience are there? Do you not know where the verses are? Do you not know if the verses even exist?

A Muslim scholar told me, I'm not a Muslim scholar so ask a Muslim scholar, whats so hard about that??
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Note: I decided to divide some paragraphs into two paragraphs or more for ease of reading. Even though I think some ideas flowed well as one paragraph, some of the paragraphs were so long that I decided to split them instead.

First off, I would like to clarify that I'm not one of the supporters of the view that A'isha was raped if we go by the cultural and marital standards of the time period she lived in. Aside from the fact that no majorly scholarly authentic historical accounts of her life that I have ever read say that she suffered from any problems that would indicate sexual abuse, Muhammad's enemies at the time would have also used the marriage against him had it been uncommon for someone to marry someone that young at his time, but they didn't.

I'm clarifying the above because I personally think that it is unjustified to conclude that she was a victim of child sexual abuse when she went on to live a life that still has no majorly scholarly authentic accounts of suffering from the effects of such. I'm open to changing my current view in light of evidence; it's just that I currently think it would be hasty to conclude that she was sexually abused as a child unless we talk about her marriage in isolation of cultural and historical context.

That said, one of the things that baffle me is when I see some people attack criticism of A'isha's marriage due to her age according to some of the most widely accepted Islamic views as "slander" and "misinformation." I think it is indeed the sign of unfortunate dismissal and the myopic if not outright blind political correctness that accompanies Islamic apologetics in many cases.

When millions of Muslims unwaveringly assert that A'isha was no older than nine or ten years old when Muhammad "consummated" his marriage with her yet some non-Muslims claim that it is "slanderous," "hateful," etc., to point out that belief, I can't help but wonder to what depths intellectual bankruptcy can sink so as to allow people to so readily dismiss viewpoints that they disagree with even if said viewpoints are based on texts that are widely considered authentic by many Muslims and Islamic scholars.

We have, for example, the two most authoritative hadith books in Sunni Islam, Bukhari and Muslim. This is some of what they have to say about A'isha's age at the time of her marriage to Muhammad:



Given that most Muslims consider Muhammad to be a moral role model (with many Muslims considering him a perfect moral example), I can't help but wonder how harmful it can be to assume that what he did 1,400 years ago is acceptable to do now. A middle-aged man marrying a girl who was still playing with dolls—and that, again, is according to one of the two most authoritative hadith books in Sunni Islam, the sect of Islam that makes up the significant majority of Muslims.

This is from the other most-authoritative Sunni Islamic hadith book, Muslim:



And we have more support in one of the major Sunni Islamic views for the marriage based on the view that A'isha was indeed nine years old at the time of the "consummation" of the marriage:



Now, I think it is definitely worth pointing out that most Muslims, at least most Muslims I know, would never allow their daughters to marry at nine or ten years of age. Like most places in the world, the age I'm aware most Muslims I know agree is the minimum age for marriage is 18-20. While I do believe that A'isha's marriage was nothing extraordinary at her time, to say that it is also acceptable for girls to marry at that age today strikes me as outright support for child rape and sexual exploitation of children.

The fact that A'isha's age at the time of her marriage was so young when the marriage was to a man considered by millions of people to be the greatest moral example in the history of humanity seems to me to be more than a little problematic, exploitable, and prone to solidifying and propagating misconceptions about the age of consent for girls.

I haven't mentioned the website from which I took the above quotes yet. Someone might ask which Islamophobic, anti-Islamic website I took this stuff from. I intentionally saved it for last to make a point. Here it is:

Refutation of the lie that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah when she was 18 years old

Yes, that's the title of the link; it calls one of the apologetic arguments a "lie." One more tidbit about the link, IslamQA: it states that its general supervisor is Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid. This is him according to Wikipedia:



Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Al-Munajjid

Of course, someone might argue that the Salafi school of thought doesn't comprise the entirety of Islam, and that would be absolutely true. However, I highlighted in red a part I found interesting above.

The IslamQA link is not the first instance of my reading or hearing strong assertions with quotes from authoritative Islamic texts among the majority of Sunni scholars stating that A'isha was nine or ten years old when Muhammad "consummated" his marriage with her. Like it, hate it, oppose it, support it, or don't even care about it, that view is held and supported by millions of Muslims and many Islamic scholars, and it seems to me that apologetics is not going to change that.

I'm interested to hear thoughts on this subject, be they in agreement or disagreement, or possibly just neutral.

I gave you a like because you are to a certain degree being fair minded. Firstly, we do not possess any evidence or indisputable proof that A'isha's age was 9. Secondly, Hadiths are not the Words of God and do not trump the Quran so we must and Muslims must be very careful when claiming Hadiths that contradict the Quran have any validity. As Baha'is we do not accept Hadiths as valid. Duties Aisha was given on the battlefield place her at much more than 9 at the time of her marriage. There is a book on Aisha on Kindle Amazon, I suggest people read it. There is no birth certificate and no reliable system kept 1400 years ago. Even my wife's family today who come from an oriental background do not know their own birthdays or exact age. Judging Islam by western standards is wrong because they did not have our record keeping skills at that time.


Islam is divided into Sunni and Shiah. This Hadith comes from Sunni sources which were the Umayyads and Abbasids that slaughtered. and destroyed and killed and were not the true successors of Muhammad. They were always falsifying Hadiths to help them interpret the Quran to support their brutality. Shiah don't support this view of Aisha. Also there are conflicting reports about her age depending on which source you consult.

This is one example.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

-According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Also another thing to consider. After Muhammad's engagement to Aisha He did not marry her immediately but 'waited for a time'. Why? Because it says in the Quran marriage is only permitted when a woman has her womanhood so Muhammad waited until she had reached puberty. This showed Muhammed did not consume the marriage when she was a child but a fully fledged woman.

Quran 4:6

4: 6 Test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage, then if you determine in them sound judgment then hand over their possessions..

Here marriageable age is equated to sound judgement.

Sound judgement is not held by a child of 9 and the fact the Quran says to test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage shows the Quran is cognisant of under age marriage and forbids it.
 
That's not what Sunni Muslims taught me, in the Koran the angel tells Mohammad to take no more wives, and he goes ahead and takes another wife,

I'm not sure which passage you are referring to, I do know he was ordered to take another wife at one point though:

When thou saidst to him whom God had blessed and thou hadst favoured, 'Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear God,' and thou wast concealing within thyself what God should reveal, fearing other men; and God has better right for thee to fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished what he would of her, then We gave her in marriage to thee, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished what they would of them; and God's commandment must be performed. (37)

Muslims teach that all the prophets are equal. Not one greater than the others. This is what I was taught at the local Mosque by Sunni Mulsims

While some may believe that, it doesn't really chime with the scripture and tradition.

In the story of the Miraj, Muhammad visits the 7 heavens lowest to highest. Jesus is only in the 2nd heaven with Abraham at the top of the pyramid. Muhammad of course gets to ascend to the highest heaven.

Also in the context of eschatology, only Muhammad is considered worthy of intercession:

It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us: “When the Day of Resurrection comes, the people will surge with each other like waves. They will come to Adam and say, ‘Intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Ibraaheem for he is the Close Friend of the Most Merciful.’ So they will go to Ibraaheem, but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Moosa for he is the one to whom Allaah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moosa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to ‘Eesa for he is a soul created by Allaah and His Word.’ So they will go to ‘Eesa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ So they will come to me and I will say, I am fit for that.’ Then I will ask my Lord for permission and He will give me permission, and He will inspire me with words of praise with which I will praise Him, words that I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a barley-grain.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a small ant or a mustard-seed.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth from the Fire everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of the lightest, lightest grain of mustard-seed.’ So I will go and bring them forth.”

Only Muhammad's name is worthy of inclusion in the shahada (interestingly it took nearly a century AH for this to happen, it didn't appear in the earliest examples of the shahada), the hadith and sirah contain detailed accounts of how Muhammad dressed, ate, how he wore his beard, even how he urinated. Many Muslims will try to imitate these, but they don't try to imitate Moses or Jesus in these ways.

Muslims certainly honour and respect all prophets, but some appear to be more equal than others.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You base your anti religion on the Hadiths, not the Quran.
 
You base your anti religion on the Hadiths, not the Quran.

Anti-religion???

I was simply pointing out what many Sunnis believe. Sunnis use the hadiths, so it makes sense to refer to these when mentioning what many Sunnis believe: Muhammad was the perfect role model for humanity.

Why is it anti-religion to describe what other people believe?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Sunnis use some of the Hadiths not all by any means, and most of them do not put anywhere near the significance on them that they put on the Koran, you being a non Muslim, and having no idea which Hadiths are accepted or not and by who, I suggest you stick to making arguments from the Koran, and not dragging up obscure Hadiths you have no comprehension of the significance of.
 
Sunnis use some of the Hadiths not all by any means, and most of them do not put anywhere near the significance on them that they put on the Koran, you being a non Muslim, and having no idea which Hadiths are accepted or not and by who, I suggest you stick to making arguments from the Koran, and not dragging up obscure Hadiths you have no comprehension of the significance of.

Err, the Miraj is not 'obscure', but a pretty key even in Sunni theology. It is only narrated in the hadith which is why it is rejected by Quranists. The hadith are of great importance in classical Sunni theology given that even basic things prayer are more derived from hadith than they are from the Quran.

Muhammad's ability to intercede is hardly obscure either, given its significance in Sunni theology, and in case you didn't notice I was linking to a conservative Sunni website.

Why the hostility about the fairly uncontroversial observation that many Muslims do indeed honour Muhammad above all other men? Is this somehow 'Islamophobic'? I'm guessing that more Sunni Muslims would find your perspective that Muhammad was flawed to be more offensive than my observation that he was the most important of the prophets.

Are you the only non-Muslim learned enough to comment on Islam?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Sorry but I've studied with Sunni scholars, you my friend, are no expert on Islam.
 
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