The Meaning of Body Resurrection

[sojourner]

your choice is either to admit that it was an interpolation by the Gentile who wrote the gospel or stop claiming that Jesus was Jewish. What do you pick?

Jesus was a Jewish learnt man

Which is it? Jewish, or not Jewish. Make up your mind.

he knew that the idea of bodily resurrection is a contradiction to the Scriptures.

Jesus knew a lot of things that were contrary to the scriptures. Why do you think he said, "Turn your lives around?"

 

[Ben Masada]

You are too fast in saying that there is no Scripture to support what I say. I am waiting for an scripture to support what you say that Jesus taught about an afterlife.

Jesus taught about life after death in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus who had lived a good life was at rest in the bosom of Abraham, while the rich man who lived a selfish life, disregarding the needs of others, suffered in torment in the world of Hades.

Ben: In parables, visions and dreams, everything is possible; even to see God and live. Besides, the aim of Jesus in that parable was not to enhance the idea of heaven or hell but to confirm his message of Matthew 5:17-19, that nothing of the Law had been abolished. That even in face of heavens or hell, the only way is to listen to Moses, or the Law.

Jesus would have known this from the holy scriptures in which Isaiah says in 57:1; Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when good people die, no calamity cand hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

Ben: This has nothing at all to do with afterlife. That's a comparison between the death of the just and the death of an evil one. While one dies peacefully, the other dies in torments of conscience.

Now, if it only good people who find peace and rest in death, then there remains another state for people who do not lead good lives, and Jesus reveals that state of torment in his story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Ben: If that's the way you see this parable of Jesus, why don't you decide to listen to Moses and acknowledge the Faith of Jesus
which was Judaism?

But you must keep growing in your errors until you reach a height where you can be brought down with a crash that can be heard through out the forum.

Ben: Well my friend, you have no other option but to wait for that day.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada,

I can see your reason for trying to destroy the beliefs in Christianity. Being a Jew, you were God's chosen people, but because you did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, but rejected God's son, you now have neither the son or the Father.

Ben: To be or not to be, that's the question. We don't have; we are. We don't need to have the Messiah or the son of God. We are the Messiah and the son of God. Take a look at Exodus 4:22,23.

You do not even obey your own laws. Consider Deut 19:15, which says that every matter should good by two or three witnesses. The Christian Greek Scriptures were written by many more Jews than required. Even the Four Gospels were written by four Jews. Why do you reject God's law?

Ben: You are so ill-informed about what you say that you don't even know that Luke was a Greek Gentile. Moreover, none of the writers of the NT was a Jew. At the selection of the writings into the Canon of the NT, only those writings according to the Pauline Christology were approved in the Fourth Century by the Fathers of the Church.

All the scriptures that you cited were showing that the resurrection was impossible for man. This is not so with God, for the Greek Scriptures speak about the resurrection many times.

Ben: Now, I agree with you. That's what I mean. That bodily resurrection is a fabrication of the Greek Scriptures.

You cited Job, but you failed to mention Job 14:14,15, which tells about Job waiting in death until God calls him back.

Ben: Everything is possible in an allegory. That's what the whole book of Job is.

What about Isa 26:19??

Ben: The answer to Isaiah 26:19 is in Ezekiel 37:12. Check it out. Isaiah is not talking about bodily resurrection.

The term resurrection means to stand up to life again.

Ben: But not in a literal manner. You don't understand the symbolism of the Scriptures.

Abraham, on whom you believe, believed in the resurrection. That is the reason he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, through whom the promises would continue.

Ben: Sorry, but Abraham and Isaac had nothing to do with bodily resurrection.

Several people were even resurrected in the Hebrew Scriptures, by prophets, Elijah, Elisha caused two to be resurrected.

Ben: Have you ever heard why the Scriptures attribute so many years, even up to almost a thousand years to the great ones from Noah back to Adam? Because it was part of rendering honor to the old great ones. The same thing with miracles attributed to the spiritual great ones among the Prophets. The Prophets could not bring someone back from death and contradict the Scriptures. That honor to Elijah and Elisha was added by the sacred writer as a token of honor, which had become a legend from generation to generation.

 

[sojourner]

the aim of Jesus in that parable was not to enhance the idea of heaven or hell but to confirm his message of Matthew 5:17-19, that nothing of the Law had been abolished. That even in face of heavens or hell, the only way is to listen to Moses, or the Law.

You're wrong. The aim of Jesus in Matthew is that the prophets and the Law are fulfilled in him.

 

[Ben Masada]

Which is it? Jewish, or not Jewish. Make up your mind.

Jesus knew a lot of things that were contrary to the scriptures. Why do you think he said, "Turn your lives around?"

Jewish or not Jewish? You are the one to decide; not me. Myself, I am speaking about Jesus, who was a religious Jew. You cannot bake you cake and eat it too, but wanting that Jesus was a Jew, and at the same time a Greek demigod.

Jesus never gave testimony about anything contrary to the Scriptures. Anything about Jesus which is not Jewish makes of him a Gentile and not a Jew.

 

[sojourner]

We are the Messiah and the son of God.

And we are the Body of Christ, who is the Messiah. So what? Now that we've determined that we all believe in God, and that God calls us to greater life in God, we're left with the option of degrading the other's religious expression of that, or celebrating the wide diversity in God's kingdom.

Moreover, none of the writers of the NT was a Jew.

Paul was a Jew. Mark was probably a Jew. Matthew was possibly a Jew. The Q author was most likely a Jew.

At the selection of the writings into the Canon of the NT, only those writings according to the Pauline Christology were approved in the Fourth Century by the Fathers of the Church.

The canon wasn't set until the 5th century.

 

[herushura]

Jewish or not Jewish? You are the one to decide; not me. Myself, I am speaking about Jesus, who was a religious Jew. You cannot bake you cake and eat it too, but wanting that Jesus was a Jew, and at the same time a Greek demigod.

Jesus never gave testimony about anything contrary to the Scriptures. Anything about Jesus which is not Jewish makes of him a Gentile and not a Jew.

i think what happened, when greek gained control over israel at the time,may jews adopted the greek values.

With this Greek Influence Jews adopted Cleansing Rituals, and the notion of "Son of God" most likely from dionysus and mithras influences, and led to the formation of the Essene Sect of Jews that most likely led to the formation of Christianity.

also by adopting these greek values, they can create a new religion that would be acceptable by the greeks

 

[sojourner]

Jewish or not Jewish? You are the one to decide; not me. Myself, I am speaking about Jesus, who was a religious Jew. You cannot bake you cake and eat it too, but wanting that Jesus was a Jew, and at the same time a Greek demigod.

Jesus never gave testimony about anything contrary to the Scriptures. Anything about Jesus which is not Jewish makes of him a Gentile and not a Jew.

Jesus was Jewish. He didn't speak contrary to the Law -- he fulfilled the Law. He spoke against the hypocrisy of the religious establishment of the time.

My cake has the following ingredients:
Jesus was a Jew who is God Incarnate. "Greek demigod" must be in the Betty Crocker recipe; it sure ain't in mine.

"Anything about Jesus which is not Jewish" is a straw man. Because, as we all know, Judaism went through a radical change post 70 c.e. What you practice now is not what Jesus would have practiced. At all.

 

[sojourner]

i think what happened, when greek gained control over israel at the time,may jews adopted the greek values.

With this Greek Influence Jews adopted Cleansing Rituals, and the notion of "Son of God" most likely from dionysus and mithras influences, and led to the formation of the Essene Sect of Jews that most likely led to the formation of Christianity.

also by adopting these greek values, they can create a new religion that would be acceptable by the greeks

Cleansing rituals and "son of God" are both semitic concepts.
We don't necessarily think it "most likely" that the Essenes were responsible for Xy. They were too cloistered to have "made disciples of the ethne."

 

[herushura]

Cleansing rituals and "son of God" are both semitic concepts.
We don't necessarily think it "most likely" that the Essenes were responsible for Xy. They were too cloistered to have "made disciples of the ethne."

Son of God is more egytpian then semetic, it appears in the Torah as Adam, because God was is true father, Egytpian Equivilent is "Son of RA" a title that all Egytpian pharoahs have, because the egyptian believed the pharoahs were an incarnation of Horus, who was the first pharoah of egypt. Horus was the Son of God(ra) and Mari-Hathor - Infact the term Hathor means House of God, were Pharoahs are said te be born from, Hathor as the same meaning of bethany and bethel eg Mary of bethany = Meri-Hathor of egypt.
thus the Origin of the term "Son of God"

 

[sojourner]

Son of God is more egytpian then semetic, it appears in the Torah as Adam, because God was is true father, Egytpian Equivilent is "Son of RA" a title that all Egytpian pharoahs have, because the egyptian believed the pharoahs were an incarnation of Horus, who was the first pharoah of egypt. Horus was the Son of God(ra) and Mari-Hathor - Infact the term Hathor means House of God, were Pharoahs are said te be born from, Hathor as the same meaning of bethany and bethel eg Mary of bethany = Meri-Hathor of egypt.
thus the Origin of the term "Son of God"

Kraft Macaroni-and -Cheese is more cheesier than generic, too. But it doesn't mean that the generic brand isn't authentic.

I thought you just said that "son of God" was Greek! But now it's "more Egyptian!"
Why can't it be Semitic, too? Why can't the concept of seeing ourselves as offspring of the Creator be an ubiquitous concept?

 

[Ben Masada]

And we are the Body of Christ, who is the Messiah. So what? Now that we've determined that we all believe in God, and that God calls us to greater life in God, we're left with the option of degrading the other's religious expression of that, or celebrating the wide diversity in God's kingdom.

Paul was a Jew. Mark was probably a Jew. Matthew was possibly a Jew. The Q author was most likely a Jew.

The canon wasn't set until the 5th century.

Yes, when I said that we are the Messiah and the son of God, I gave you Exodus 4:22,23. What do you have to substatiate your claim that you are the body of Christ? Do you see what I mean?

Paul quit being Jewish from the moment he left Judaism to found
Christianity. About the others, you are being too hypothetical. "Probably, possibly and most likely" butter no bread.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, when I said that we are the Messiah and the son of God, I gave you Exodus 4:22,23. What do you have to substatiate your claim that you are the body of Christ? Do you see what I mean?

Paul quit being Jewish from the moment he left Judaism to found
Christianity. About the others, you are being too hypothetical. "Probably, possibly and most likely" butter no bread.

Paul didn't "found" Xy. There was already at least one community of believers by the time Paul showed up, or he wouldn't have had such a cushy job persecuting them, in the first place.

Whether he "quit" is immaterial. He was Jewish.

We know Paul was a Jew, because Paul tells us he was a Jew. The others make no such claim. However, we can infer from their writings what they were. We'll never know for certain, but, then again, neither will you. Therefore, your claim is as hypothetical as mine, and butters about the same amount of bread.

 

[Ben Masada]

i think what happened, when greek gained control over israel at the time,may jews adopted the greek values.

With this Greek Influence Jews adopted Cleansing Rituals, and the notion of "Son of God" most likely from dionysus and mithras influences, and led to the formation of the Essene Sect of Jews that most likely led to the formation of Christianity.

also by adopting these greek values, they can create a new religion that would be acceptable by the greeks

I agree with you that many Jews did absorb a few Greek influences, especially those in the Diaspora; but real Judaism never got lost. The Hasmonians made quite a cleaning up of the Greeks customs which were taking roots. And I agree with you that it was from these elements that Christianity took it's rising.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus was Jewish. He didn't speak contrary to the Law -- he fulfilled the Law. He spoke against the hypocrisy of the religious establishment of the time.

My cake has the following ingredients:
Jesus was a Jew who is God Incarnate. "Greek demigod" must be in the Betty Crocker recipe; it sure ain't in mine.

"Anything about Jesus which is not Jewish" is a straw man. Because, as we all know, Judaism went through a radical change post 70 c.e. What you practice now is not what Jesus would have practiced. At all.

You are talking about a Greek man and not about a man who was Jewish.

 

[Ben Masada]

Cleansing rituals and "son of God" are both semitic concepts.
We don't necessarily think it "most likely" that the Essenes were responsible for Xy. They were too cloistered to have "made disciples of the ethne."

The only Jewish concept about being son of God is found in Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son. So, let My son go, that he may serve Me." That's the Jewish concept. The one Paul fabricated for Jesus is purely mythological.

 

[herushura]

Kraft Macaroni-and -Cheese is more cheesier than generic, too. But it doesn't mean that the generic brand isn't authentic.

I thought you just said that "son of God" was Greek! But now it's "more Egyptian!"
Why can't it be Semitic, too? Why can't the concept of seeing ourselves as offspring of the Creator be an ubiquitous concept?

Son of God is not really prominant in greek myth, because greek is just a large pantheon of Gods, whom are the sons of the earlier gods. Like dionysus is the son of Zeus who is the son of Cronus who is the son of Uranos who is the son of Elion who is the ancestral sons of the mesopotamian gods, Every god in the pantheon is somewhat a son of some god thus the greek didnt acknowledge the divinity of the Son of God term

 

[sojourner]

You are talking about a Greek man and not about a man who was Jewish.

I thought Jesus was Jewish, not Greek...

 

[sojourner]

The only Jewish concept about being son of God is found in Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son. So, let My son go, that he may serve Me." That's the Jewish concept. The one Paul fabricated for Jesus is purely mythological.

So... it is a semitic concept.
Paul didn't fabricate it. Son of God is found in the gospels, and none of those authors knew Paul.
Your claim is purely mythological.

 

[herushura]

Well Israel is the son of Isaac - but he is also called Son of God - in a way Israels spiritual father is God but his real father is Issac, this also appears in the book of enoch who is also called Son of God.