The message of the cross is foolishness!

[MaddLlama]

What "unbelievers" that you have personally encountered have been offended by the message?

 

[Darkness]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Cor

Yes, I do believe Jesus' death to be foolish, though I do not think him a fool. I think it is foolish and downright evil to sacrifice your son, when you can simply forgive people for their "sins." That being said, I think it is noble for Jesus to die and quell his Father's wrath.
​

The Biblical Gospel when proclaimed is an offense to the unbeliever. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. The Biblical Jesus leaves no one neutral. Mankind has always persecuted God's messengers. I believe the hostility toward faithful Evangelicals (banned and current RF members) is really directed at the message of the cross, and not the messengers. Nobody has the ability to judge the heart of another. Man judges the outward appearance, but God judges the heart. Let's talk about it. We can focus on many things on this Thread. We need to first define the Biblical Gospel and see if it offends the unbeliever. Then, we can discuss the messengers if you want.

I will not persecute Christians who do not try to forcefully control my life (as the Conservatives try to control gays and lesbians in the United States). I may get angry when someone says I or another deserves to burn in hell. I do hate that Gospel, for it is not good news but a Message of Hatred and Tyranny. No one, no matter how evil, deserves to suffer for all eternity. You may believe I am evil for this, but in reality I am the one showing compassion. Apparently, you do not believe being good is showing benevolence, but following the commands of your Twisted Heavenly Master (story of Abraham and Issac).

We are now at a brick wall. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you it is evil to torture "sinners" for all eternity. It is not a law of the Universe that malevolence is wrong. It is my human nature (it is I) which determines it to be wrong and evil. Maybe God does not feel the same way we do, and from his heavenly domain he is righteous in his actions. But that naturally places us on opposite sides of the spectrum. Maybe neither of us are absolutely right, but our very beings are opposed and I would hate myself for serving your God. It is a matter of wills. God's will can surely send us to hell and torture us for all eternity, but as Satan said in Paradise Lost, the only thing God cannot conquer is our will. As long as our will is in rebellion against his tyranny, he can never defeat us.

So, yes, I do hate the Christian Fundamentalist Gospel. How can I love something filled with so much hate? It goes against my very nature of favoring compassion over unending hatred; of forgiveness over eternal contempt.

 

[Quagmire]

Let's talk about it. We can focus on many things on this Thread. We need to first define the Biblical Gospel and see if it offends the unbeliever. Then, we can discuss the messengers if you want.

"Gospel" is merely old English for "good tidings" or "good news". It was lntentionally carried over into the current English versions of the Bible untranslated because, left as it is it impilies (and diefies) a set of books rather than the simple message it was intended to convey.

When Paul wrote his epistles there was no written gospel, so obviously he couldn't have been referring to the Gospels we have today but was rather just saying the "good news", ie, "the good news of the forgiveness of sin" that Jesus instructed his disciples to proclaim to the world.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: ​

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Cor​

The Biblical Gospel when proclaimed is an offense to the unbeliever.

Quite right; the Biblical Gospel, ie the "good news of the forgiveness of sin" and the injunction to love each other is going to offend control freaks and megalmaniacs, ie these "faithful evangelicals", because there's nothing in there that they can use to control other people or exhalt themselves with.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. The Biblical Jesus leaves no one neutral.

You're right; he said "There is none good, no, not one" ie, noones "special". Not anymore than anyone else.

Mankind has always persecuted God's messengers.

You're right; the self appointed religious elite have always persecuted anyone who tryed to show them they were living a lie.

I believe the hostility toward faithful Evangelicals (banned and current RF members) is really directed at the message of the cross, and not the messengers.

So if the forum rules say , "don't do such and such or you will be banned" and someone goes ahead and does such and such anyway, and gets banned for it, that's persecution?

Anyone who doesn't treat a specific group as if they were above everyone else and therefore excempt from the rules everyone else has to follow is is attacking God?

How does that line up with the humility Jesus taught?

How does attacking someone and objecting when they defend themselves represent "Love thy nieghbor as thy self" or "turn the other cheek"?

Are the lessons in the gospels just something you can present to everyone else and say, "I'm excempt, but this is how you're supposed to be treating me"?

Nobody has the ability to judge the heart of another. Man judges the outward appearance,

What? like pointing to someone else who you don't know and haven't made any effort to understand and saying, "You believe this", or, "you're acting this way because you are (fill in the blank)"?

My take on the nasty little crusade that's been going on in the forums lately---people going into forums where they don't belong, proslytising, calling other people's religions illegitamate-- is that the self appointed religious and moral elite see RF as a place where people from all religions or none at all are getting along and trying to understand each other--ie, practicing love--and they can't stand it. There's nothing in there that they can use to exalt themselves with.

So they have to try to disrupt it by practicing hatred (and calling it Love).

but God judges the heart.

Yes, so He probably wont accept self-deception as an excuse for ignoring or perverting His message because, after all, you're not just the decieved, you're also the deciever.

 

[doppelganger]

What? like pointing to someone else who you don't know and haven't made any effort to understand and saying, "You believe this", or, "you're acting this way because you are (fill in the blank)"?

My take on the nasty little crusade that's been going on in the forums lately is that the self appointed religious and moral elite see RF as a place where people from all religions or none at all are getting along and trying to understand each other--ie, practicing love--and they can't stand it. There's nothing in there that they can use to exalt themselves with.

Curse the frubal limits!!!! Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Cor​

I interpret this passage as a warning of the dangers of exclusivity in religion. Spiritual wisdom and knowledge is not the property of the elite, but the treasure of everyone. To be "saved" is to understand this and work towards a more inclusive enlightenment.

God frustrates the elite who withhold spiritual treasure, as is shown in the many colors of spirituality in the spectrum of humanity. The Spirit shines through each of us, not a few.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I interpret this passage as a warning of the dangers of exclusivity in religion. Spiritual wisdom and knowledge is not the property of the elite, but the treasure of everyone. To be "saved" is to understand this and work towards a more inclusive enlightenment.

God frustrates the elite who withhold spiritual treasure, as is shown in the many colors of spirituality in the spectrum of humanity. The Spirit shines through each of us, not a few.

Indeed, the message of the cross is foolish! The Fool, as represented by the Tarot, is the traveler at the start of his journey. The cross represents the meeting point of God and Human, and this meeting point is a crossroads towards a new journey.

 

[Wandered Off]

The Corinthians verse is one of the most clever mind traps in the faith. It's a self-reinforcing way to turn apparent absurdity from its usual disadvantage to an advantage. The moment any doubt arises, that verse is right there to say "Ah HA! It's ingeniously SUPPOSED to look ridiculous, which of course proves that it's true, so stop thinking." Like that proverb that's so good it's in there twice...

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

The message seems to be, "Your brain is a marvelously intricate paper weight." I believe this attitude fuels an anti-intellectual bias in certain religious movements (not all, of course).

Galilleo's wisdom trumps Paul's, IMO:

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

 

[kmkemp]

I don't see the conflict between the two quotes. In fact, it is our intellect (that thing that Galileo urges us to use) that leads us to believe that the ways we choose are not always the right ways.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There are many Christians on this site who proclaim Christ and Him crucified. Some have been banned. We proclaim the truth in love in complete unity!

Are you saying that there is some relationship between holding a certain faith and being Banned.?
How would you justify that.?

 

[McBell]

Keep dreaming. God didn't write that. Paul wrote it in Greek. Someone translated it into English and you have interpreted it to suit your personal agenda. Sorry, I'm still not offended by your imagined Gospel.

As you so poitedly put it: "Curse the frubal limits!!!! Khaaaaaaaaaaan!"

Curse the frubal limits!!!! Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

I was able to and in fact did Frubal that most excellent post.

 

[MaddLlama]

Indeed, the message of the cross is foolish! The Fool, as represented by the Tarot, is the traveler at the start of his journey. The cross represents the meeting point of God and Human, and this meeting point is a crossroads towards a new journey.

I think that's a very astute analysis.

 

[Quagmire]

Curse the frubal limits!!!! Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

Lol!

"Faith; the final frontier..."

 

[Caina]

"stouros" doesnt really mean cross now does it...

 

[Special Revelation]

Does the unbeliever find this an offense and foolishness?​

2 Thessalonians 1

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

"stouros" doesnt really mean cross now does it...

Nor is "stauros" a significant Christian symbol.

 

[Caina]

Nor is "stauros" a significant Christian symbol.

Well I suppose they had to use something

 

[MaddLlama]

Does the unbeliever find this an offense and foolishness?​

2 Thessalonians 1

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

You never responded to my post. Are all "unbelivers" supposed to be offended? Because, I'm not offended by it at all. I'm not sure how that fits into your thought process.

How do you explain the unbelievers who aren't offended by the gospel?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Does the unbeliever find this an offense and foolishness?​

2 Thessalonians 1

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

I find it remarkably exclusive.

 

[daemonikus]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Cor​

The Biblical Gospel when proclaimed is an offense to the unbeliever. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. The Biblical Jesus leaves no one neutral. Mankind has always persecuted God's messengers. I believe the hostility toward faithful Evangelicals (banned and current RF members) is really directed at the message of the cross, and not the messengers. Nobody has the ability to judge the heart of another. Man judges the outward appearance, but God judges the heart. Let's talk about it. We can focus on many things on this Thread. We need to first define the Biblical Gospel and see if it offends the unbeliever. Then, we can discuss the messengers if you want.

​

you know. i gotta hand it to the writers of this religion in that day. they really covered their bases. "the message of the cross if foolishness to those who are perishing". no way out of that little statement is there. how do you argue with that? where is there room for questioning? black/white, do/dont, yes/no. there's just no logic to any of it. so yeah. it is foolishness. i'm not particularily offended by it, i just think its rather unfortunate the level of credit that religions get for some things and how ludicrous the justifications for certain beliefs and practices really can be.​

​

 

[wizanda]

Isa 29:14-16
(14) Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
(15) Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
(16) Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Isa 45:9-10
(9) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
(10) Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Rom 9:21
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Jer 8:9-12
(9) The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
(10) Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
(11) For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
(12) Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.