Actually, you continue to demonstrate serious defects in comprehension.
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The Messianic verses of Isaiah
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Get a good dictionary. Anyone who thinks interpretation and translation is the same thing, needs some serious help.
I never suggested anything of the kind. You seem to just make things up on the fly.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
adrianoo9,
Very good questions! To understand the difference between Jesus' first coming and his coming in our day, you must consider what Jesus comes to earth for. As Jesus comes from heaven he binds Satan with a chain and throws him into the Abyss, and seals it for a thousand years, Revelation 20:1-3. Satan is put in the Abyss so that he cannot lead people wrong, during The Thousand Year Judgment Day, whenpeople who live through the Great Tribulation, and the billions of the dead will be resurrected, and all grow to perfection, as were Adam and Eve.
As Jesus descinds from heaven, he then resurrects the anointed ones, and takes to heaven the anointed one who are alive when he comes again, the ones who will be Kings and Priests in heaven, with Jesus, Romans 8:17, Revelation 20:4-6, 1Thessalonians 4:13-17. Then there wil be the Marriage of the Lamb,Jesus, to his Bride, the 144,000 who are anointed and sealed, who were changed in the twinkling of an eye to be immortal spirit creatures in heaven to rule with Jesus, Revelation 7:3,4, 14:1-5, 19:7,8.
Next, Jesus becomes the Judge of all the earth, putting all to death, who do not Know God well, and who do not obey the lord Jesus, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 25:31-46. Armageddon!!!
Then starts the Judgment Day, where all the good things Isaiah wrote will come true, the dead wil be resurrected, the blind will see, the lame will walk, the mute will talk, all the animals will be tame, and eat straw instead of each other, Isaiah 11:1-9, 25:8, 35:1-7, 65:17-25, Revelation 21:1-5.
Thank you for you post.
This sounds distinctly like a Jehovah Witness perspective. I have no problem with interfaith discussion and in my experience have found the JWs courteous and have spent a lot of time reading their bible. As a Baha'i I believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible as the Christians. I believe also in the second coming of Christ. We have different understandings as to how this will happen.
The book of revelations because of its highly symbolic nature and being prophetic is perhaps one of the most difficult books in the bible. It may not be the best starting point for our discussions. I know the JWs have very literal interpretations of this book.
Some of the areas that Baha'is and Jehovah witnesses differ are:
(1) Baha'is do not believe in the existence of a literal satan.
(2) Baha'is do not believe the Jesus was literally resurrected.
(3) Baha'is believe that Christ has already returned.
My experience with JWs is that they are clearly and firmly held beliefs as Baha'is do. However I'm happy to discuss any areas you would like.
To begin with, the animals in Isaiah most likely refer to different nations or empires as they do in the book of Daniel so I sign of peace in the future will be that nations, religions, and peoples that were previous antagonistic towards each other will be able to live in harmony.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is my take:
There is no explicit verse in the Jewish Scriptures that says, when Messiah comes, He fulfils some prophecies then He leaves the World and comes back again and fulfils the remaining prophecies.
However to me it is fair to say that, Book of Isaiah prophesies about Two different individuals.
The Messiah and the Lord of the Host.
The Messiah is also known as the king of the Jews.
But the Lord of the Host, is coming of the God of Israel, who is different than the Messiah in the Jewish belief (Jews please correct me, if you have a different view). It is during the time of Manifestation of the Lord of Host that World peace was to be established.
What Christians believe is the Messiah is that same Lord of the Host (Christians, please correct me if you have a different view).
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Thank you for your contribution to this thread. I like the title investigate truth as that is the purpose of this thread.
I believe there are Jewish scriptures that refer to when the Messiah (Jesus) and when He returns (Baha'u'llah).
I'm preparing a draft commentary of Daniel 9:24-27 from a Baha'i perspective.
These four verses are important for a complete understanding of both the New and Old Testaments of the Christian Bible. Through a careful study of these verses we are better able to appreciate how Jesus is the fulfilment of this important Old Testament prophecy. Amongst the insights gained we understand the use of important numbers in apocalyptic scripture and how the relate to important dates for both Christ and His return. The key number in this prophecy is 490 which related to the number of years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC to Christ's crucifixion at age 33 years. Understanding this will enable us better comprehend the numbers 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300. I hope to prepare another thread to explore how these numbers relate to key dates in the Baha'i revelation through the advent of the twin Manifestations of God, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Verse 24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
How long is seventy weeks in biblical terms?
490 Years
In Biblical terms each day is a year:
Numbers 14:34: The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan
Ezekiel 4:5-6: The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
Therefore, 490 days are 490 years!
What is the Holy City?
Jerusalem
What does “Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity” refer to?
Daniel 9 begins with Daniel praying to God on behalf of His people. At the time the Hebrews had been exiled and this was a direct consequence of their failure to adhere to the Eternal Covenant God made with Moses, Noah, and Abraham.
‘To bring everlasting righteousness’. What does this mean and how could it happen?
Jesus would partially fulfil this prophecy by bringing a New Covenant (Jerimiah 31:31) along with many other Old testament prophecies. The Returned Christ will completely fulfil it (Jeremiah 31:31-34) along with the remaining Old Testament prophecies and those in the New Testament.
‘To seal up vision and prophecy’ and ‘anoint the most Holy’– What does this mean?
Jesus would fulfil this prophecy in Daniel and that is part of what He eluded to on the Mount of Olives. Jesus was anointed in the lead up to His Crucifixion.
Verse 25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
What is this commandment to restore and build Jerusalem?
It was the command issued by Artaxerxes 457 B.C as unlike the previous two decrees this was the one that was acted on. The decree in regards to the wall and gate was not the one as the rebuilding of Jerusalem was well advanced at that stage.
The first decree was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign—that is, in 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.
But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Christ was 33 when He was martyred and ascended. When you add 33 to 457, the result is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the coming of Christ.
When Jesus on the Mount of Olives during the week leading to His martyrdom He mentions the abomination of desolation in Daniel. He is indicating the fulfilment of prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27. Once this is understood then further insight can be appreciated by further analysis of these key verses.
The Messiah the Prince is of course Jesus the Christ
Does seven weeks and two and three score (62) weeks refer to the same time period as above and if so why the division into distinct periods?
It refers to the same period but is divided up to emphasize the importance of the first seven weeks (49 years) with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the time period up until the last week when Christ was Manifested.
Where is the missing week?
Daniel 9:27 refers to the missing week
“the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.” Why refer to these aspects?
The completeness of reconstruction of Jerusalem which will have important symbolic significance eg book of Revelation.
Verse 26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
When is ‘after threescore and two weeks’?
The last week where Christ is manifested.
The Messiah shall be cut off’ ‘but not for himself’ What does this mean?
He will sacrifice Himself for the Salvation of humanity.
‘and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary’ What is the Meaning?
The Jews who have (indirectly) put to death their Messiah, in turn have their temple and Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans.
‘and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined’ What does it Mean?
Life is going to become very difficult for God's chosen people.
Verse 27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is this the missing week?
Yes
What is the Covenant? What other Covenants are there in the bible?
The New Covenant prophesised in Jeremiah 31:31 symbolised at the last supper.
‘Shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease’ what is the Meaning?
Sacrifice at the temple ends with the destruction the temple. Jesus is the new focal point of worship.
‘And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate’ What is the Meaning?
The Jews will experience many abominations that result in desolation over a long period of time.
‘even until the consummation ’ What dose this Mean?
The Return of Christ ends this difficult period for the Jews (Bridal symbolism - Matthew 25 and book of Revelation)
‘and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.’ Meaning?
The Returned Christ's Love will be poured upon the Jews. They will be the first as a Nation to recognise the Returned Christ. They will become an inspiration and source of redemption and salvation for all the Nations.
Please feel free to add any comments or suggest amendments
I believe there are Jewish scriptures that refer to when the Messiah (Jesus) and when He returns (Baha'u'llah).
I'm preparing a draft commentary of Daniel 9:24-27 from a Baha'i perspective.
These four verses are important for a complete understanding of both the New and Old Testaments of the Christian Bible. Through a careful study of these verses we are better able to appreciate how Jesus is the fulfilment of this important Old Testament prophecy. Amongst the insights gained we understand the use of important numbers in apocalyptic scripture and how the relate to important dates for both Christ and His return. The key number in this prophecy is 490 which related to the number of years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC to Christ's crucifixion at age 33 years. Understanding this will enable us better comprehend the numbers 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300. I hope to prepare another thread to explore how these numbers relate to key dates in the Baha'i revelation through the advent of the twin Manifestations of God, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Verse 24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
How long is seventy weeks in biblical terms?
490 Years
In Biblical terms each day is a year:
Numbers 14:34: The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan
Ezekiel 4:5-6: The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
Therefore, 490 days are 490 years!
What is the Holy City?
Jerusalem
What does “Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity” refer to?
Daniel 9 begins with Daniel praying to God on behalf of His people. At the time the Hebrews had been exiled and this was a direct consequence of their failure to adhere to the Eternal Covenant God made with Moses, Noah, and Abraham.
‘To bring everlasting righteousness’. What does this mean and how could it happen?
Jesus would partially fulfil this prophecy by bringing a New Covenant (Jerimiah 31:31) along with many other Old testament prophecies. The Returned Christ will completely fulfil it (Jeremiah 31:31-34) along with the remaining Old Testament prophecies and those in the New Testament.
‘To seal up vision and prophecy’ and ‘anoint the most Holy’– What does this mean?
Jesus would fulfil this prophecy in Daniel and that is part of what He eluded to on the Mount of Olives. Jesus was anointed in the lead up to His Crucifixion.
Verse 25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
What is this commandment to restore and build Jerusalem?
It was the command issued by Artaxerxes 457 B.C as unlike the previous two decrees this was the one that was acted on. The decree in regards to the wall and gate was not the one as the rebuilding of Jerusalem was well advanced at that stage.
The first decree was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign—that is, in 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.
But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Christ was 33 when He was martyred and ascended. When you add 33 to 457, the result is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the coming of Christ.
When Jesus on the Mount of Olives during the week leading to His martyrdom He mentions the abomination of desolation in Daniel. He is indicating the fulfilment of prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27. Once this is understood then further insight can be appreciated by further analysis of these key verses.
The Messiah the Prince is of course Jesus the Christ
Does seven weeks and two and three score (62) weeks refer to the same time period as above and if so why the division into distinct periods?
It refers to the same period but is divided up to emphasize the importance of the first seven weeks (49 years) with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the time period up until the last week when Christ was Manifested.
Where is the missing week?
Daniel 9:27 refers to the missing week
“the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.” Why refer to these aspects?
The completeness of reconstruction of Jerusalem which will have important symbolic significance eg book of Revelation.
Verse 26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
When is ‘after threescore and two weeks’?
The last week where Christ is manifested.
The Messiah shall be cut off’ ‘but not for himself’ What does this mean?
He will sacrifice Himself for the Salvation of humanity.
‘and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary’ What is the Meaning?
The Jews who have (indirectly) put to death their Messiah, in turn have their temple and Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans.
‘and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined’ What does it Mean?
Life is going to become very difficult for God's chosen people.
Verse 27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is this the missing week?
Yes
What is the Covenant? What other Covenants are there in the bible?
The New Covenant prophesised in Jeremiah 31:31 symbolised at the last supper.
‘Shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease’ what is the Meaning?
Sacrifice at the temple ends with the destruction the temple. Jesus is the new focal point of worship.
‘And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate’ What is the Meaning?
The Jews will experience many abominations that result in desolation over a long period of time.
‘even until the consummation ’ What dose this Mean?
The Return of Christ ends this difficult period for the Jews (Bridal symbolism - Matthew 25 and book of Revelation)
‘and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.’ Meaning?
The Returned Christ's Love will be poured upon the Jews. They will be the first as a Nation to recognise the Returned Christ. They will become an inspiration and source of redemption and salvation for all the Nations.
Please feel free to add any comments or suggest amendments
Isaiah 24 & Isaiah 34 is the 6th seal of the Tribulation; which happens before the official return...
Isaiah 61 (Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34) which is the coming day of the Messiah, also brings the final destruction like the day of Jonah; only those who've accepted the Marvelous Work are to remain on the earth after (Revelation 15:3, Zechariah 8:6).
There are people out of all tribes that are chosen to remain (Revelation 7:3-8) after the Tribulation.
Not sure where your statement comes from scripturally?
I do not know Hebrew. It would be interesting to hear from the Jews. There a number of different Messianic titles:
The Glory of the Lord
The Glory of the god of Israel
The Lord of Hosts
The King of Glory
The everlasting Father and Prince of Peace
The Desire of all nations
The Branch
I do not believe there is a title that is specific to one individual or the other. Some verses refer to one Messiah or the other, some refer to both, and some also refer to God.
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. Isaiah 40:1-5.
Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
Ezekiel 43:1-2
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Psalms 24:9-10
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 6-7.
And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.
Haggai 2:7
"And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:12-13
We need to consider each verse on a case by case basis to work out which is which. If the Christians are correct in their belief that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah then they have an advantage over the Jews in being able to make a distinction between the two whereas the Jews will only see one Messiah. If the Baha'is are correct, then it is easier for us to make the distinction.
Lets consider the words sun, moon, and stars as being the conditions of religions where the Divine light that shines from religion is dimmed, the moon of the Holy teachings becomes distorted and runs with bloods, and the leaders and saints fall into disrepute. What greater tribulation could there be, when a seeker of truth whose heart is oppressed no longer knows where to find the answers to relieve his perplexity?
Not sure where your statement comes from scripturally?
The story of the bible is about redemption, and what greater redemption than for God's chosen peoples to recognise their Messiah.
From a scriptural perspective we could consider Matthew 19:30 where the wheel turns full circle and Jews who have rejected Christ recognise Him upon His return.
The following scripture may be relevant:
Romans 11:11-12
Romans 11:26-27
Isaiah 51:11
Isaiah 52:13
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Zechariah 8:23
If that seeker of truth thinks they're to find it in books or a person, they've missed what all the other guided messengers taught.
Knowledge is found at the end of your nose, wisdom is found at the bottom of your toes; seek too much of man's knowledge, and you won’t see your toes, as your nose grows.
Mahapralaya, the Day of the Lord, Judgement day, Tribulation, Frashokereti, etc... When reality crumbles around us, think many who are materialistic really won't cope very well.
Sounds lovely like a Disney movie....
If Yeshua Comes Back Fulfilling Messianic Prophecy, Will The Jews Accept Him
Having spent 13 years speaking with Jews, etc, most are determined they've been taught Yeshua is an imposter, who didn't fulfill a thing....
Now fair enough we could try this on a much larger scale, and appeal to the whole audience via a documentary explanation of some of the prophecies.
Yet based on the results so far of people who are going to even comprehend the basics of what has been fulfilled, even appealing to the world still sounds far fetched.
Understand the Rabbinic and Christian concepts...
Yet personally see it as a history book of guided people in a world full of hypocrisy; thus then the prophets get guided that the book its self shall become a snare, and our peoples name an insult....
People hear, what they want to hear, whilst clinging to certain ideas, and miss out on it is a dark novel, where only those who are deemed worthy shall remain....This is why it mortified the prophets.
OK explain a method, based upon all Abrahmic prophecies?
Seriously would like to find, the Messiah comes and unites everyone, we all live happily ever after; yet scripturally i can't substantiate it.
Or people could simply stop misappropriating Jewish scripture for their own use.
So forget about Moses, Christ, and all the prophets? I still look to scripture and use reason/wisdom
How about those who cling to outdated dogmas and doctrines?
Looks like your efforts to engage our resident RF Jews fell flat. The problem with Christianity is that its too far gone. I'm not interested in converting Jews to either Christianity or the Baha'i Faith. I'm here mostly to learn and connect with people, as well as teach about the Baha'i Faith to those that are interested. The Jews I've come across here on RF appear very knowledgeable about the Tanakh so I'm really interested in what they have to say and to learn. How about you?
The greatest of the Ocean is because it is lower than the rivers that flow into it. If we place ourselves on the highest mountains we deprive ourselves of God's abundant grace. I recall the disciples who argued amongst themselves as to who was greatest and Jesus's wise words, that who is least is greatest.
If you consider the tribulations that befell the peoples in the time of Noah, The Egyptians in the time of Moses, and the Jews after Christ came, it all happened after they had been warned by the prophet. It was a consequence of not heeding the warning.
Many Christians await the great tribulation as a sign to come before Christ comes. They have the order wrong! The tribulations that have come are a result of failing to heed to the warnings from Him who has already returned.
Seriously would like to find, the Messiah comes and unites everyone, we all live happily ever after; yet scripturally I can't substantiate it.
Isaiah 2:2-5
Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 11:6-9
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If we're not looking to what they were looking at; the books are useless if we don't follow the directions properly...
It is like lots of people reading a map, yet not using the maps own guidelines; they been taught to use a religious scholar's impressions of map reading, who has never been to any of the places.
People clinging to out dated dogmas and doctrines, doesn't really compare to reality crumbling before our eyes.....
Unless you were trying to imply these prophecies are made up exactly the same all over the world?
I'm interested in learning why people believe what they do; yet more as someone made manifest by God to check why they've got the map upside down before the Great Day.
The warnings were for not following what is right to begin with, same applies today....Many things being followed are diametrically apposed to God.
'He will judge among the nations' is a reference to judgement on the whole world first, this is a time after the Tribulation when God reigns on earth.
On 'David's throne' is symbolic of Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34, when the Messiah is officially anointed after the Tribulation, and the Remnant return...
Like Isaiah 9:5 says garments 'rolled in blood' is a metaphor for the Day of the Lord's vengeance (Isaiah 63:3).
Which is also found in Isaiah 65:25, which if we read Isaiah 65:17 is a new earth, after the Tribulation.
Now fair enough we've only gone and got odd pointer references on some of these verses; yet we could go across the book on each, showing the timeline between the prophets to substantiate the whole measure used on the Map.
That is true.
Yet peoples beliefs can either assist or hinder their capacity to view reality.
Arguably there are similarities between the prophecies of the major world religions. Each speaks of the coming of a great messianic type figure to redeem humanity when the moral standard declines.
What conclusion have you reached?
So what do we need to do in your opinion?
We agree that there will be a time of great tribulation and after that when God reigns on earth.
I suppose we disagree about the timeframe then. You have the Messiah coming after the tribulation and being anointed like King David. Wasn't that the thinking of the Jews before Christ came?
It won't literally be a new earth though, more like a new era that Jesus brought. Sounds like you are expecting a literal apocalypse and fulfilment of prophecy.
Now fair enough we've only gone and got odd pointer references on some of these verses; yet we could go across the book on each, showing the timeline between the prophets to substantiate the whole measure used on the Map.
At least we agree on the outcome. How it happens is a different story.
True, which is why we should try and break down beliefs, to maintain facts as much as possible....Being willing to throw every foundation away, if it helps us build a more solid understanding.
Within the texts the Messiah figure comes at the same time as the Tribulation in Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Mayan, Hopi, Buddhism....
Baha'i tries to reiterate all the apocalyptic prophecies as being a metaphor.
Too many to list without a specific reference... Yet that what I've been told by the divine, is within the text clearly, and can be understood with enough patience, and questioning all the logic involved.
Simply put is to worship the God of the living, not the dead.... Blood sacrifices are black magic.
God wants us to be decent righteous characters sharing Oneness; not following a load of religious Laws whilst being an arrogant bigoted hypocrite.
The Messiah is here just before the Tribulation; Revelation 3:3, Revelation 16:15 says Christ comes as a thief before the day.... Plus Christ is here with those who survive the Tribulation (Revelation 14:1).
The Messiah by definition has to be anointed, that is what the word means, and previously Yeshua was never coronated.
The Jews seem to think there will be some magical transition, where we go from all religions against each other, to everyone getting on smoothly, and us all living happily ever after with them as slave masters.
First had visions, then read most religious texts, they clearly state a new earth, with the old one being systematically destroyed, understand some want to make it all metaphor, yet the text is quite clear globally.
Also this rose tinted glasses to what Yeshua left, he gave Israel a defiled/broken covenant, he cursed them, and the Christians have been told a lie of joining on to the defiled covenant (which counts for nothing).
Partially, if the Bible doesn't break your heart, make you grieve for years, then clearly you're reading what you want to find within it.
The best approach IMHO is to present a positive vision or plan to encourages widespread participation. Breaking down everyone's faulty beliefs just leads to conflict and contention. I would rather try to build positive relationships and look for points of agreement.
There are literal and metaphorical aspects. The two world wars with the great depression in between was an apocalypse of sorts, as with what's happened in some communist countries, and the Middle East. Baha'u'llah wrote to the Kings and Rules of the great world powers in the nineteenth century and they all ignored His message of course. Had they heeded His warning all these troubles could have been avoided.
Put positively, worshiping the One True God and living the life. Many people are trying to do just that.
The thief in the night analogy certainly supports the Messiah coming first but doesn't give a time frame between Him coming and the tribulation. The events depicted in revelation 14:1 are metaphorical, but I don't think I'm going to convince you to see it otherwise.
Jesus of course was anointed by a woman of ill repute.
The Jews seem to think there will be some magical transition, where we go from all religions against each other, to everyone getting on smoothly, and us all living happily ever after with them as slave masters.
Its a rather dark view of the Jews.
So how are we going to get a new earth literally?
I'm good with the what He sent to the Jews and the Gentiles, and I'm good with the Jews and the Gentiles. Call me a deluded optimist.
Partially, if the Bible doesn't break your heart, make you grieve for years, then clearly you're reading what you want to find within it.
The bible brings me happiness and peace.
I've very familiar with it all, and don't think I've missed anything. Let me know where the really bad bits are so I can become miserable.
Interestingly replying to this just made me realize something, the problem of comprehension is where people place their optimism.
So for example... Rabbinic Judaism places it on a 3rd temple, and in the hopes of a restoration to the times of David.
Christians think here is Hell controlled by the Devil, and thus look for a savoir from this world.
etc...
Yet what about just reading the text unbiasedly, based on what is specifies, like I'd love the prophecy to be how I'd like the future step by step; yet it isn't...
It states it shall be like a roller-coaster; then each group with their own optimisms paint the roller-coaster as different things, such as an old fashion steam train, and claim we won't notice the difference, whilst a lot of the passengers are being sick.
So for instance that is the Jews in the Christian steam train version; whilst the Jews try to paint it as an exclusive horse and roller (even more old fashion than a steamroller), going back thousands of years to a point of barbarism, for the sake of returning some expectation, yet with the wrong aspects....
Fair enough Isaiah 1:26 says God will restore 'the Judges of old', it is in the context of their righteousness, and even their souls resurrecting, not just their practices.
Anyways to make a long story short; the hope (optimism presented within the Biblical text alone) is within all prophetic fulfillment, that all the workers of iniquity are removed this time for good...
As the flood was a first attempt, this time is to make sure by setting a snare/inception to catch out those that would swear falsely, and those that steal what isn't theirs; plus to remove all the ravenous beings in one go.
Now fair enough my optimism was as a musician; yet I've either got to be serious and say, 'what does God really want' or just make it up, and pretend none of it is real.
Yes, and it makes you a likeable person, and agree that challenging people's conceptions causes conflict....
Decided to myself, 'blood is thicker than water, spirit is stronger than flesh', thus I've either got to stand by the truth, even if I'm standing alone or join a world destined for Hell.
I'm always open to listening to any opinion, if the logic can be shown, and having worked with Irish people, even upside down logic will be listened to if it works.
Sorry should have maybe put Zionist, as some of them statements were from a BBC documentary on Zionists, who really believe that each Jew will have 10-20 Goyim slaves when the Messiah comes, and makes them rulers of the world.
Personally have Jewish genealogy; just shocked by their Rabbinic teachings being so bigoted, and racist.
Did you read 'Isaiah 24 & Isaiah 34 is the 6th seal of the Tribulation'...
People are about to cause complete annihilation (WW3, biosphere overload, there is nuclear radiation flooding the pacific, etc), thus at its peak, when all nations fight against Israel God steps in, this then causes earthquakes, whirlwinds, hail, thunder, lightening, and a holy fire that consumes all evil in its path.
Then God resets earth, and the remnant who are here after all that Tribulation, have been chosen to be Saints of the Most High for ever.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
adrian009,
You cannot blieve in the Holy Scriptures if you do not believe that the Devil, Satan, is a real person!!! Do you believe that Jesus was trying to deceive everyone when he was tempted by the Devil, Matthew 4:1-10, 1Peter 2:22, Jude 9, Revelation 12:7-17.
The things spoken of at Isaiah 11:1-9, sounds like a paradise earth to me.
Revelation 20:1-3, 10, sounds like the end of a real rotten person to me.
What about back in the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan talked to Eve, Genesis 3:1-6, and about Satan coming to the great meeting of God and the other angels, Job 1:6-12. Satan seems to be a real person, just like the other angels. At 2Corinthians 11:13-15, it seem that Paul is talking about a real person.
At John 8:44, Jesus is talking about Satan as a real person, and Jesus does not deceive or prevaricate. Agape!!!
jtartar
Well-Known Member
The best approach IMHO is to present a positive vision or plan to encourages widespread participation. Breaking down everyone's faulty beliefs just leads to conflict and contention. I would rather try to build positive relationships and look for points of agreement.
There are literal and metaphorical aspects. The two world wars with the great depression in between was an apocalypse of sorts, as with what's happened in some communist countries, and the Middle East. Baha'u'llah wrote to the Kings and Rules of the great world powers in the nineteenth century and they all ignored His message of course. Had they heeded His warning all these troubles could have been avoided.
Put positively, worshiping the One True God and living the life. Many people are trying to do just that.
The thief in the night analogy certainly supports the Messiah coming first but doesn't give a time frame between Him coming and the tribulation. The events depicted in revelation 14:1 are metaphorical, but I don't think I'm going to convince you to see it otherwise.
Jesus of course was anointed by a woman of ill repute.
Its a rather dark view of the Jews.
So how are we going to get a new earth literally?
I'm good with the what He sent to the Jews and the Gentiles, and I'm good with the Jews and the Gentiles. Call me a deluded optimist.
The bible brings me happiness and peace.
I've very familiar with it all, and don't think I've missed anything. Let me know where the really bad bits are so I can become miserable.
adrian009,
You seem to be a rsonable person. Stop a second and think about this. If all people were believing the truth and living as Jesus said to live, why would there be a reason for more than one religion??? All Christians are to speak the same, teach the same things, Ephesians 4:3-6, one faith, one hope, 1Corinthians,1:10, 1Peter 3:15, John 4:23,24, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13. Remember, in the first century, Christianity was called THE Way, Acts 9:2, 19:9,23.
You know, as well as I Do that when you have different religions, there is going to be disunity. How many Arks were there, in Noah's day. Really, there is no good reason for there being different religions. Not if all spoke the same things as the Bible says we should. Agape!!!