The Messianic verses of Isaiah

[Rakovsky]

Thank you for posting too. I can see you have had some respectful discussions with our learned Jewish brothers so that is great. What an amazing book Isaiah is.

Thanks for your nice words.
Some Hebrew experts I talked to think that Yarutz in Isaiah 42 more likely comes from Ratsats (crushed). Grammatically it could mean either I think.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for your nice words.
Some Hebrew experts I talked to think that Yarutz in Isaiah 42 more likely comes from Ratsats (crushed). Grammatically it could mean either I think.

Thank you.

When I started engaging in discussions on RF a few months ago early on I came across the Jews and witnessed a conversation between a Jew and Christian where both had an interpretation of Isaiah 53 that suited their world view, and each was completely unable to see or engage constructively with the others perspective.

If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

 

[Rakovsky]

Thank you.

When I started engaging in discussions on RF a few months ago early on I came across the Jews and witnessed a conversation between a Jew and Christian where both had an interpretation of Isaiah 53 that suited their world view, and each was completely unable to see or engage constructively with the others perspective.

If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

Interesting issue. It looks like Rosends who is Jewish is able to see the Christian view that Isaiah 53 is Messianic, but he naturally doesn't equate Messiah with Jesus nonetheless:

So is Isa 53 Messianic or not?

yes.

 

[rosends]

Interesting issue. It looks like Rosends who is Jewish is able to see the Christian view that Isaiah 53 is Messianic, but he naturally doesn't equate Messiah with Jesus nonetheless:

well, that's a slight misreading of my "yes." There is an aspect to Isaiah 53 which is "messianic" in that it discusses what will happen during future messianic days (on one level). This does not mean that the text relates to a messiah -- ANY specific messiah. Additionally, the specifics of the nature of the references in 53, show that, even if it were about a specific person, it cannot be Jesus.

 

[Rakovsky]

well, that's a slight misreading of my "yes." There is an aspect to Isaiah 53 which is "messianic" in that it discusses what will happen during future messianic days (on one level). This does not mean that the text relates to a messiah -- ANY specific messiah.

I understand what you mean, Rosends. The point I was trying to make is that in some way you and your interlocutor were agreeing on a substantive issue. There are some critics who claim Isaiah 53 as not Messianic in any way, and they see the chapter as purely referring solely to the Babylonian exile of the 6th c. BC.

Shalom.

 

[rosends]

I understand what you mean, Rosends. The point I was trying to make is that in some way you and your interlocutor were agreeing on a substantive issue. There are some critics who claim Isaiah 53 as not Messianic in any way, and they see the chapter as purely referring solely to the Babylonian exile of the 6th c. BC.

Shalom.

I defer to the main commentator, R. Shlomo Yitzchaki who writes on verse 8, "The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now."

Since this is about events at the end of days, I see that on some level, at least parts of Isaiah 53 are about the messianic era.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Interesting issue. It looks like Rosends who is Jewish is able to see the Christian view that Isaiah 53 is Messianic, but he naturally doesn't equate Messiah with Jesus nonetheless:

I defer to the main commentator, R. Shlomo Yitzchaki who writes on verse 8, "The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now."

Since this is about events at the end of days, I see that on some level, at least parts of Isaiah 53 are about the messianic era.

What interested me the most was the debate between Jew and Christian with each offering a compelling and plausible interpretation, but the other not able to acknowledge in the slightest the others perspective.

 

[wizanda]

Additionally, the specifics of the nature of the references in 53, show that, even if it were about a specific person, it cannot be Jesus.

Could you please list the references you see as not being specific please?

 

[rosends]

Could you please list the references you see as not being specific please?

Mostly in its reference to a generic, unnamed servant, then, secondarily, to the literarily consistent practice of referring to the nation as that servant.

 

[rosends]

What interested me the most was the debate between Jew and Christian with each offering a compelling and plausible interpretation, but the other not able to acknowledge in the slightest the others perspective.

But what's important to note is that my position is that the chapter has messianic elements but isn't about the messiah, any messiah.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But what's important to note is that my position is that the chapter has messianic elements but isn't about the messiah, any messiah.

I understand the distinction. What intrigues me is the Jews and Christians along with their scholars, apologists, and centuries of study have diametrically opposed views to the same texts. Both sincere and well considered, both compelling in the depth of thought and understanding of scripture, and yet contradictory.

 

[Muffled]

At last we agree about something.

Perhaps it is this:
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and they give their power and authority unto the beast.
14 ¶ These shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they also shall overcome that are with him, called and chosen and faithful.

 

[Muffled]

But what's important to note is that my position is that the chapter has messianic elements but isn't about the messiah, any messiah.

I believe that is like saying that there are letters that indicate words but they are not really words. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Muffled]

I understand the distinction. What intrigues me is the Jews and Christians along with their scholars, apologists, and centuries of study have diametrically opposed views to the same texts. Both sincere and well considered, both compelling in the depth of thought and understanding of scripture, and yet contradictory.

I believe it is due to the fact that Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messaih so they have a vested interest in viewing the text from that perspective. It is also true vice versa. I believe I am objective even though I believe Jesus is the Messiah. I believe the shoe fits for this to be a prophecy of the birth of Jesus as well as being a prophecy of current events of the time.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But what's important to note is that my position is that the chapter has messianic elements but isn't about the messiah, any messiah.

I believe that is like saying that there are letters that indicate words but they are not really words. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Is English your primary language?

 

[Muffled]

Is English your primary language?

I believe it is but it works for any language. I believe it is if then logic. If there are elements then it is indicative of the whole set. Of course "ktxbrz" does not seem to make a word so a context such as a dictionary is needed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is English your primary language?

I believe it is but it works for any language. I believe it is if then logic. If there are elements then it is indicative of the whole set. Of course "ktxbrz" does not seem to make a word so a context such as a dictionary is needed.

 

[rosends]

I believe that is like saying that there are letters that indicate words but they are not really words. That just doesn't make sense to me.

So a book can't tell you about what ice cream flavors will be available when the 50th president is in office without discussing the president?

 

[wizanda]

when the 50th president is in office without discussing the president?

Thankfully this is why the Tanakh is very specific, and uses Yeshuat Eloheinu in Isaiah 52:10, so it clearly identifies the servant by name...

Yet some people are trying to read the ice cream menu, as a science book, and thus get confused when it doesn't use specific grammar.

 

[rosends]

Thankfully this is why the Tanakh is very specific, and uses Yeshuat Eloheinu in Isaiah 52:10, so it clearly identifies the servant by name...

Yet some people are trying to read the ice cream menu, as a science book, and thus get confused when it doesn't use specific grammar.

That's like saying that the first amendment to the constitution forbids congress from making any laws because it says "Congress shall make no law." I guess you think Moses was referring to Jesus's magical appearance in the desert in Ex. 14:13.

Do you agree with Muslims that the Song of Songs references Muhammed? Would you accept that the text names Saul in Deut 18:16 and Kings 1, 2:20?

Even ice cream menus use proper grammar and word choice. A sundae isn't a Sunday.