The Military Fights to Defend our Freedom, or absurdist things the news tells me.

[Badran]

Exactly. The United States is targeted because of our involvement in the Middle East and our support of Israel. Other secular, Western countries have not been targeted to the extent that the U.S. has been. It's not our secular Western lifestyle that is causing these people to blow themselves and others to bits.

Yes, i can't see how is there any arguments of this at the very least being the main reason.

 

[kai]

The US is targeted because certain "groups" use violence to project their political aims, the reasons are many and will be adapted to suit their argument at the time.There is no overall one reason, but the destruction of Israel seems to be top of most of thems list.

 

[Aquitaine]

Easy now.

Two cheers for Saddam. Much better than that messy democratic stuff. And some cities are still rebuilding, no ***** sherlock, there was just a war there.

Please don't mistake me for being some sort of fan of Saddam, he was an evil tyrant, yes, but that did not justify our invasion of Iraq. As for Iraq's elections, they were a farce, a way to make us Westerners somehow feel good about wasting lives, money, and equipment in that pointless war. Remind me, what were the reasons our countries went into Iraq again?

This is not true.

Operation Cyclone.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

You'll have to forgive me, Joe. You don't have much of a track record for recommendations. Take this one for instance. You have failed to grasp that we're talking about the whole spectrum of Muslims fighting the US, and not just al-Qaeda. Consequently, you are assuming that the opinions of two people in al-Qaeda fairly represent the opinions of thousands of various fighters. That would be an interesting mistake if only it were an intelligent mistake. Alas! It is not even that.

American military interrogators have said the number one reason the people they interrogate are fighting us is that they are furious with us for killing Muslims. Each time we kill someone, we increase the odds his brother, his cousin, his friend, or perhaps just another member of his religion will take up arms against us -- according to the interrogators. Maybe Usima Bin Ladin and his number two guy hate us for our way of life. But by far, most of the Muslims fighting us are fighting us because we have been killing Muslims.

That's not all that different from the way so many Americans joined the military after seeing the deaths of 9/11. The desire to revenge attacks on your friends, family, nation, or religious group is universal.

Try to understand it, Joe.

Well, at least you admit that the leadership of al-Qaeda wants us dead because of who we are more so than what we have done.

Second, I hope you realize that the Arab-Muslim world is one of least educated and most prone to whack-job conspiracy theories (can someone explain how the 'Arab street' can cheer 9/11 as if it was a good thing and then argue it was carried about by Jews) than almost any place on earth. Cue the obligatory racism charge because Arab Muslims are a wee bit tanner than you or I.

Third, do these noble freedom fighters know that US military action in the Middle East the past two decades has been to defend the lives of Muslims (against violence from other Muslims)?

So, forgive me if I don't buy the claims that they are fighting to nobly defend their Muslim brothers and sisters (especially their Muslim sisters, Muslims treat women like excrement). I don't remember seeing the Muslim world's outcry when Saddam Hussein was murdering other Muslims. I don't believe they care too much about their Muslim brothers. Their actions indicate that they don't.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can't help but wonder if you understood Sunstone, Joe. Your claims are so biased that I don't really feel like disputing them.

Also:

I don't remember seeing the Muslim world's outcry when Saddam Hussein was murdering other Muslims.

Were you looking for it? Do you have Muslim connections, or did you have them at the time? Do you believe that your lack of such knowledge is a good indicator of its existence?

I don't believe they care too much about their Muslim brothers. Their actions indicate that they don't.

With all due respect, who are you talking about? Accusing any group of not caring about itself is a very bold claim, worth of some detail and evidence.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

I can't help but wonder if you understood Sunstone, Joe.

I sure did. He is arguing that the vast majority of Muslim terrorists are fighting us because they believe we are killing their Muslim brothers and sisters. I am arguing that these Muslims (the terrorists) don't really care about their fellow Muslims. First, the Arab-Muslim world treats women as property yet we hear not much in the radical Muslim world about imporving the treatment of Muslim women. And when various Arab leaders are slaughtering Muslims you don't hear much from radical Muslims. They seem to have selective moral outrage.

 

[LuisDantas]

I sure did. He is arguing that the vast majority of Muslim terrorists are fighting us because they believe we are killing their Muslim brothers and sisters.

"Believe"? Don't you believe the claims of the US military? Or maybe you're putting in question the Muslim nature of the people of Iraq and Afeghanistan?

Your way of putting things is often, to say the least, interesting and even inovative.

I am arguing that these Muslims (the terrorists) don't really care about their fellow Muslims.

And as evidence and support for this intriguing claim you provide...?

First, the Arab-Muslim world treats women as property yet we hear not much in the radical Muslim world about imporving the treatment of Muslim women.

Not much of an expert on Islam, are you? I suggest talking with a Muslim or two when you have the chance. You show a disturbing lack of basic understanding of Muslim society. There are a few Muslim women in these forums, I'm sure one of them will be happy to comment on this statement of yours. I'm even more certain that you will greatly benefit from listening and understanding those comments.

Regardless, that is quite besides the point anyway. While there is certainly a need for revising the role of women in the Muslim world, that is a very poor excuse for disregarding acts of war and state-backed terrorism.

And when various Arab leaders are slaughtering Muslims you don't hear much from radical Muslims. They seem to have selective moral outrage.

Perhaps. But how would you know? Just because you don't hear much about it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Have you attempted to find out at all?

 

[LuisDantas]

Please take a look here:

iraqometer.com iraq war cost

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

I find this hilarious. Of course this proves the axiom made by the great Ann Coulter: liberals will always side with barbarism over civilization. Radical Muslims terrorists make claims against the West and of course you and Sunstone side with the radical Muslim terrorists.

"Believe"? Don't you believe the claims of the US military? Or maybe you're putting in question the Muslim nature of the people of Iraq and Afeghanistan?

Your way of putting things is often, to say the least, interesting and even inovative.

Oh please, the US military takes great pains to avoid killing civilians. Regrettably this doesn't always happen. But you believe that Israel is genocidal so it wouldn't be far to believe that the US is the great Satan that makes it a policy of murdering Muslim civilians.

Not much of an expert on Islam, are you? I suggest talking with a Muslim or two when you have the chance. You show a disturbing lack of basic understanding of Muslim society. There are a few Muslim women in these forums, I'm sure one of them will be happy to comment on this statement of yours. I'm even more certain that you will greatly benefit from listening and understanding those comments.

LOL! Saudi women can't even drive let alone be with men on their own. Female circumcisions and the honor killings. This is how women are treated by radical Muslims (not all Muslims, just the radical ones).

Perhaps. But how would you know? Just because you don't hear much about it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Have you attempted to find out at all?

You know we are talking about the radical Muslims here? There has been an outcry from more moderate and liberal elements of the Arab-Muslim world, but the radical Muslims are just as bloodthirsty as Saddam was (hence no outcry when Saddam was doing the murdering).

 

[Madhuri]

Joe Stocks, you mentioned 'radical Islam'. Nobody is defending that. Not even 'liberals'. If people take a position of defence it is for the normal Muslims who are not radical. Most predominantly Muslim nations do not participate in things like female circumcision.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Madhuri,

Joe Stocks, you mentioned 'radical Islam'. Nobody is defending that. Not even 'liberals'. If people take a position of defence it is for the normal Muslims who are not radical. Most predominantly Muslim nations do not participate in things like female circumcision.

Sunstone mentioned Muslims that are interrogated by the US. I saying that the vast majority of those Muslims are radical. Sunstone and Luis, not surprisingly, hear the claims from these radical Muslims and take them as the gospel truth. I am disputing the claims made by these Muslim terrorists that Sunstone and Luis agree with.

 

[Neo-Logic]

I think your perspective is goal centric -- that is to say the merits of the immediate reasons that the military is doing the fighting for and the dying for should be the rubric in judging whether or not it actually causes the defense of our existing freedom or adds to it. I think that is perfectly valid. Hopefully though, you are limiting the scope of your analysis and conceputalization to the military as an organization and not generalizing your conclusion to all parts of the whole. After all, the merits we assign to each particular war goals are always subjective as are the reasons for those goals, but what is always objective is the sacrifice of the individual soldiers and the families. The military as an organization may have ulterior motives and its commanders -- both civilian and military -- may not make the right decisions, but the individual soldiers are always fighting for our freedom and I absolutely believe that as a fact.

A picture speaks a thousand words and the one below says much more than I ever could with mere words. It's never just the soldier that fights and sacrifices for our freedom, it's also their families and loved ones. For that reason alone, I would characterize their plight as both noble and fighting for our freedom. When I look at the picture below, I can't help but think that the boy's sacrifice of a fatherless childhood and the last measure of devotion his dead soldier-father gave was not for a military goal, but for our collective freedoms.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi Madhuri,



Sunstone mentioned Muslims that are interrogated by the US. I saying that the vast majority of those Muslims are radical. Sunstone and Luis, not surprisingly, hear the claims from these radical Muslims and take them as the gospel truth. I am disputing the claims made by these Muslim terrorists that Sunstone and Luis agree with.

I take offense at this statement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Neo-logic: it is one thing to value their sacrifice. It is another, completely different, to know that it was directed at worthy efforts.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone and Luis, not surprisingly, hear the claims from these radical Muslims and take them as the gospel truth.

It's perhaps ironic that Luis and I seem to have more respect for the expertise of the US military's interrogators than does Joe Stocks. But is it surprising that Joe would think he knew better than the military's experts what was going on?

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Luis,

I find this hilarious. Of course this proves the axiom made by the great Ann Coulter: liberals will always side with barbarism over civilization. Radical Muslims terrorists make claims against the West and of course you and Sunstone side with the radical Muslim terrorists.

:biglaugh: I can't get over how you would quote Ann Coulter as an authority. You've lost it, Joe.

Ann Coulter? You believe her! You actually believe, on the basis of Ann Coulter's words, that Luis and I side with radical Muslims. Well, you just show 'em, Joe! You just go ahead and appeal to Coulter's shrewd honesty, insight and intelligence. Who couldn't be more spot on than Ann Coulter!

 

[sandandfoam]

I think US 'defensive' wars are madness, the 'warrior' seems to have some almost mythic status. In 'protecting' itself the US is sowing the seeds of war for years to come.
It's time to stop the killing.

 

[Sunstone]

I believe that one of the main reasons terrorists target the US and other areas all over the world is because so many of them are radical religious extremists who despise secular, Western society.

And nobody has to tell me that. It seems quite obvious to me.

Thank you for the candidness of your response. I won't try to convince you otherwise since you have effectively declared that reason and evidence are not the basis for your opinion, but that instead you believe in whatever "seems quite obvious to you". We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Badran]

Third, do these noble freedom fighters know that US military action in the Middle East the past two decades has been to defend the lives of Muslims (against violence from other Muslims)?

Wow. How does Iraq fit into that picture?

And, assuming that in someway or another that is the case, the result remains to be awful. As ridiculous as this notion is, it still doesn't justify invading another country and destroying it and killing civilians and torturing them in prison.

So, forgive me if I don't buy the claims that they are fighting to nobly defend their Muslim brothers and sisters

You talk about muslims, but you don't really seem to know what you're talking about. Its not hard to see why though, since you don't even acknowledge that the US is indeed doing anything to hurt them, but rather in your opinion it helps them.

Nobody is saying that its a "noble" defense, but rather the reaction they do to what the US does. That includes invading countries, killing their brothers and sisters, supporting another invading country, and so on. This is clearly the prime motivator for anybody to go extreme.

(especially their Muslim sisters, Muslims treat women like excrement).

No they don't.

 

[Kathryn]

Exactly. The United States is targeted because of our involvement in the Middle East and our support of Israel. Other secular, Western countries have not been targeted to the extent that the U.S. has been. It's not our secular Western lifestyle that is causing these people to blow themselves and others to bits.

Well, I certainly agree that we are not causing them to blow themselves and others up. They're doing this of their own volition, for a myriad of reasons, including their hatred of Western society and other religions - especially (but not limited to) Christianity and Buddhism.

Radical Islamists are on a rampage across this globe. Since 9/11 there have been over 15,000 deadly terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists worldwide, and the vast majority of those attacks (and victims) were NOT in the US. There have been regular attacks throughout Europe and directed at many non Muslim people and groups - fueled by a potent mixture of religion and politics.

27 people were killed in an attack on an Iranian mosque by a Sunni suicide bomber just two days ago. My gosh, they killed 74 innocent soccer fans in Uganda!

Certainly the US is targeted in part because of our support of Israel and our involvement in the Middle East, but those are only two of the myriad of reasons that radical Muslims dislike the US. To deny that their hatred is exacerbated by their hatred of Western society in general and Christianity in particular is to be IN denial of pertinent facts.

Check out this story detailing the videos of the last moments of the two suicide bombers who bombed the mosque in Iran:

Two suicide bombers pose for the camera before killing 28 at Iranian mosque | Mail Online

The latest twist is that now Iranian clerics are saying that the US supported that attack in order to create imbalance and chaos in the Middle East.

Seems to me they don't need our help in that matter - they seem to be doing a fine job of that all by themselves.