Give people some credit. Most theists know better than to just do things automatically out of some piece of scripture.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Monopoly of Religious Believers
- Thread starter monti
- Start date
Give people some credit. Most theists know better than to just do things automatically out of some piece of scripture.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
My husband is the most kind, generous, benevolent and moral person I know....he is an atheist. I'm a believer?
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of criminals out there who are atheist....
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Please learn about The Onion. It's as if you've posted a link to Mad Magazine.
Except that "we" don't believe this. Please quit talking about religious believers like we're some homogenous category that all think alike. We don't, and to speak like we do is either rationally indefensible or communicatively sloppy. Only religious exclusivists would make a claim like this, and exclusivist attitudes represent but a portion of religious folks given it is really only found in certain traditions of a couple of the monotheisms.
It's not really that simple. For one, not all religions place these kinds of demands in the first place. For two, of those religions that do, relatively few adherents hold to the orthodoxic extreme that you're suggesting. For three, even assuming the person is very orthodoxic, it would be extraordinarily unusual for any human being's behaviors to be governed from a single cause. The teachings of their religion on ethics - if they are even present - would be one factor of many influencing how "believers" conduct themselves.
But by all means, continue blaming "religion" and "believers" for all the wickedness of human civilization. See how far it gets you.
THEY DON'T HAVE A "MONOPOLY on being the only people who can be kind and benevolent to others." Why does this bother you? Do they have something you don't?
The ultimate was & is Jesus! "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Get with the program! Read the factory owners manual for people [God's word-the bible]. You may find that not only does God know more than you, but he does love you, more than you could possibly love anyone or anything. It is pure.
Do you know better than God? - What HE is doing?
The ultimate was & is Jesus! "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Get with the program! Read the factory owners manual for people [God's word-the bible]. You may find that not only does God know more than you, but he does love you, more than you could possibly love anyone or anything. It is pure.
Do you know better than God? - What HE is doing?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
And even more who ain't.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Same with religious folks of course.
Actually, if we go to the stats, I'm fairly certain that theism is not generally helpful far as law-abidding and moral crimes go.
But that is not a very helpful argument to make. It is as much of a generalization as one can be, and this is a very personal matter.
But that is not a very helpful argument to make. It is as much of a generalization as one can be, and this is a very personal matter.
Yes and?
I am saying that religious believers who follow the laws and dictates of their gods will do things because their god dictates it.But by all means, continue blaming "religion" and "believers" for all the wickedness of human civilization. See how far it gets you.
An atheist can act the same but not because of the dictates of a god, and, their are atheist who simply would not do the same as the religious believer WHO FOLLOWS THE LAWS AND DICTATES OF THEIR GOD will do.
Why are you finding it so hard to understand what it is I am stating?
Jews circumcise (genitally mutilate) their children because their god dictates it.
An atheist would not.
Jehovah witnesses deprive their loved ones of the right to life(blood transfusion) BECAUSE THEIR GOD DICTATES IT, an atheist would not.
Last edited:
Causation would be extremely difficult to establish, but I don't imagine there's much correlation either. Why would there be? Theism and non-theism in of themselves do not make any ethical proclamations. I imagine it has about as much to do with a person's ethics as their favorite color would.
Why are you finding it so hard to understand that I don't agree with your sweeping generalizations and am pointing out that motivations and causes for human behaviors are an awful lot more complex than you seem to be allowing for? You make this statement as if it's some sort of incontrovertible truth (emphasis mine):
It's not a straight track of "god says jump" and a theist says "how high?" Establishing causation for human behavior really isn't simple, and neither theists nor non-theists are automatons who will always respond a certain way if you push a button. If you haven't studied much of the social sciences - particularly things like social psychology and sociology - I would recommend it. Hell, if you changed the above sentence to "some theists believers may be influenced by the guidance of their gods" I would completely agree with you. But that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.
Because convenient beliefs may be used to mask unethical behavior.
Theism has been abused that way time and again, although I agree that it is difficult to quantify how often and perhaps even whether that is a significant factor in lack of ethics.
Afterlife beliefs seem to be an even worse influence, if my experience with Kardecism is any indication.
Yes, it does, but for many people theism involves surrendering one's ethics to the supposed wisdom of God.
Fair enough, however ...
... I see this as a very separate thing. It is one thing to accept a particular god-concept, and entirely something else to model yourself and your behavior after it. That's a thing being layered on top of the theism that is not present in all theistic paradigms. Part of the reason why I separate these concepts more than some others is because I'm a polytheist. When you have many gods, there are different standards of ethics one would arrive if you were to model your ethics after a deity. Acceptance of the gods in of themselves, therefore, tells you very little about the ethics of a polytheist. To my knowledge, ethics in historical Pagan societies wasn't particularly tied to theism, perhaps for this reason. This seems to be a thing that the monotheists did? But I'm not sure on that. At any rate, the idea of the gods being THE ethical authority isn't intrinsic to theism.
Not intrinsec to theism, but popular for many monotheists.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I totally agree with you on this.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Do you realize this also works in reverse? How many atheists believe in loving their enemies or turning the other cheek. But perhaps you do not see those as positives.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
:::yawn:::
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
It's difficult because I don't agree with your viewpoint...
I know plenty of atheists who have undergone circumcision for various reasons? Do not confuse FGM with male circumcision, the two are VERY different.
Actually a JW themselves deprive themselves of the right to life by refusing a blood transfusion. They obviously learn from the church but in a medical setting, JWs make their own decisions. Some people agree with euthanasia? Every religion rejects that....so what's the difference? People are making their own choices.
My brother is an atheist and it took him a while to agree to a blood transfusion. He just didn't like the idea of having someone else's blood pumped into him
So your point about religious believers doing things that atheists wouldn't do is wrong.
We are not robots...we choose what we do. Many bad things happen in the world, horrible crimes etc, they are performed for all sorts of beliefs but the religion is not the true cause...most religions actually teach love, to not kill, to not steal etc. if someone twists that into their own liking, is that religion or them?
Take Islam...it's actually a very peaceful religion, but terrorists have twisted it but I'm hoping you wouldn't put a very nice Muslim in the same category of a terrorist?
Atheist do harm, Christians do harm, Muslims do harm, Hindus do harm pagans do harm, agnostics do harm...my point is that it is NOT the religion per se, it's the people and what they choose to do.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Indeed. They should be reminded that your belief's don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
As far as I can see it's those (albeit a minority) of a religious persuasion (or claiming to be thereof) calling for things such as the Religious Freedom Act.
Atheists also don't go around trying to inform people, children among them, that if they don't love them, they will burn and suffer for eternity.