The myriad proofs for the exsitence of God

[zackcool]

Hi all,
Great thief.Im happy for you.
What you've experienced is initiation within.
That is the beginning.
Start pondering and reflecting ,on all things.
The saying ,everything happens for a reason is never further than the truth...
There is no doubt in what recides within,the question is mostly how do we reach inside...
It starts with pondering and reflecting...
The secret is sincerity.

 

[sojourner]

Romance, consciousness, and atheism: all proofs for the existence of God, supposedly!

All these weak and unconvincing arguments do not amount to a single compelling proof. By setting the bar of proof at such a low level the theist is simply stating the terms under which his argument is proved to his own satisfaction. And this raises questions. First of all did the believer come to his own faith through being convinced by such arguments? If he did then little more needs to be said. And if he didn’t then why should it ever be imagined that unbelievers will find them compelling?

Numerous lesser arguments do not amount to a single indubitable one: they simply invite and highlight the erroneous argumentation, which damages the case the advocate was hoping to make. We see that each argument is presented as 'another proof’ of God’s existence, which means previous ones were not on their own sufficient, which is to say they were not able to singularly stand as the Proof.

And yet the matter ought to be settled easily, for if there is one, utterly compelling and self-evident proof for the existence of God then all others are at once made unnecessary and irrelevant. Is there one? If there is let us hear it.

Just out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with Anselm's Proslogion?

 

[McBell]

*yawns*

Would someone please be so kind as to let me know if any thread title proof ever appears in this thread?

 

[zackcool]

Hi all,
Proof.....
How do we indeed proof the existance of spiritual experience?
How do we proof the existance of feelings and emotions?
Sadness,happiness,anger,resentment...
By doing what the feelings and emotions tells us to?
Is that real prove?The doing?
How can something that cannot be seen be prooven?
But do we not doubt it exist? Feelins and emotions?
Can we proof the existance of air?
Yes.But can it be proven decades ago? No.
The fact that air cannot be proven to exist decades ago doesn't mean that it does'nt.
Point being proof only belongs to those who's experienced it,
And the secret is sincerity....

 

[cottage]

Just out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with Anselm's Proslogion?

Do you refer to the Ontological Argument (Proslogion II), where existence is said to follow from a defintion? Yes!

 

[sojourner]

Do you refer to the Ontological Argument (Proslogion II), where existence is said to follow from a defintion? Yes!

Interesting exercise, isn't it.

 

[cottage]

Interesting exercise, isn't it.

It's brilliant! My absolute favourite logical argument, though treated with disdain by theists for some reason. Even Aquinas rejected it. Most of the standard objections to it don't impress me. Kant had two objections and for some reason his 'existence is not a predicate' argument seems to have been adopted as the official refutation. He has another, a much better one that doesn't get much of an airing, which I prefer and use in combination with Hume's treatment of the 'proof'. (I'm sure I've alluded to it a few posts back.) It's often said that even if there is no God the ontological argument would still be true.

 

[sojourner]

It's brilliant! My absolute favourite logical argument, though treated with disdain by theists for some reason. Even Aquinas rejected it. Most of the standard objections to it don't impress me. Kant had two objections and for some reason his 'existence is not a predicate' argument seems to have been adopted as the official refutation. He has another, a much better one that doesn't get much of an airing, which I prefer and use in combination with Hume's treatment of the 'proof'. (I'm sure I've alluded to it a few posts back.) It's often said that even if there is no God the ontological argument would still be true.

I really like it too, but for me, in the end, the exercise of proving God is just so much intellectual fluff. We can discuss the adhesive properties of different types of rubber molecules as they concern pavement, but in the end, all that matters is that the car stays on the road and goes where you point it, all things being equal. For me, God is a given that goes beyond being able to explain the molecular properties of God.

I'm not advocating for "blind faith" here. I'm advocating for a "sense" rather than a "proof." Sort of like having always had a sense of gravity, without having to take a class in physics to prove that it exists.

 

[christian]

your very last line....too true. no-one can argue this point. it's actually a catholic joke of sorts that most RCs believe in God "just in case". hahaha. actually, it's a pretty prudent way to view things. unfortunately if there is a God....it probably won't pass muster. but you do the best you can with what you've got i guess.

if there isn't a god, then it's probably the box (tho some would disagree here). and if it's the box, then believing in god all your life isn't much of a foible once you're gone forever.

i'm not sure what the "wager" is in your post though.

even tho we discuss and contest all the variables, it leaves us all wondering. kind of something to keep us on our toes so to speak. for some it's a dread, others it causes expectation and still others it just stirs things up a bit. interesting stuff to be sure.

 

[Tiapan]

Proof against god, I believe we live in a cyclic universe, evidence is Spin (angular momentum). If we have a universe with no beginning or end then there is no reason to have the "Great Creator". So no god, if I am right., this is in total contradiction to all religious dogma which states there was a beginning instigated by the super guru.

As far as emotions etc being proof of god, I believe they are simply complex social behaviors that have evolved from the complexity of biology over hundreds of millions of years.

Have you see Brolgas dance, are these birds expressing love, joy, consciousness?. Its biology not god.
YouTube - Brolga dancing in northern territory australia

Cheers

 

[Thief]

Well here we go again...
This discussion cycles...a lot.

Even if you would like to say the universe cycles.....
There was...had to be... a primary cycle....a beginning.

So back to the singularity....again.
Back to the notion that Something caused it.
Back to the explosion that would have been an ever increasing hollow sphere.

But that's not what we see when we look up.
I still say the spin was induced by God.
It is the motion that speaks of His existence.

 

[McBell]

There was...had to be... a primary cycle....a beginning.

Why?

I still say the spin was induced by God.

cool.
Now, who/what induced God?

 

[sojourner]

your very last line....too true. no-one can argue this point. it's actually a catholic joke of sorts that most RCs believe in God "just in case". hahaha. actually, it's a pretty prudent way to view things. unfortunately if there is a God....it probably won't pass muster. but you do the best you can with what you've got i guess.

if there isn't a god, then it's probably the box (tho some would disagree here). and if it's the box, then believing in god all your life isn't much of a foible once you're gone forever.

i'm not sure what the "wager" is in your post though.

even tho we discuss and contest all the variables, it leaves us all wondering. kind of something to keep us on our toes so to speak. for some it's a dread, others it causes expectation and still others it just stirs things up a bit. interesting stuff to be sure.

I don't understand what you're getting at. What "wager" are you talking about? Paschal's? No. What I'm saying is far from Paschal's Wager. Actually, my thinking is a lot closer to Anselm, as I said in a previous post -- although it isn't a philosophical "proof" either.

I don't "believe in God 'just in case.'" I believe in God. I've always had a sense of God, and I see evidence of God's existence in the world around me. Not proof, but evidence. Religion isn't a court of law, and we don't have to prove our case.

If "faith is evidence of things hoped for," what I hope for is that the paradigm of the universe is fueled by ultimate love and goodness. I look around and I see that love and goodness are things to be desired. Whatever -- whoever -- God is, I have faith that God exists as the ultimate Impetus.

 

[zackcool]

Hi all,
When a baby is born,it is blind and untrained.Yet,when it is sick or hungry, it will cry to gain the attention of Mother.Now who taught the baby this critical trade?
Some will say ,survival instinct,brought about by complex human social behaviour over thousands of years...
And some will say,it is programmed in the human genes, brought about after thousands of years...
Does that mean that thousands of years ago when the first baby was born it lacked this critical trade? Does it mean that the first baby wont cry to let Mother know that it is sick or hungry?
If that's the case i guess human beings would not have survived beyond the first man.
Yes the first baby will cry to get attention,and yes it is programmed in the human genes...
But brought about by complex human social behaviour over thousands of years.?
Please reflect...

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Hi all,
When a baby is born,it is blind and untrained.Yet,when it is sick or hungry, it will cry to gain the attention of Mother.Now who taught the baby this critical trade?
Some will say ,survival instinct,brought about by complex human social behaviour over thousands of years...
And some will say,it is programmed in the human genes, brought about after thousands of years...
Does that mean that thousands of years ago when the first baby was born it lacked this critical trade? Does it mean that the first baby wont cry to let Mother know that it is sick or hungry?
If that's the case i guess human beings would not have survived beyond the first man.
Yes the first baby will cry to get attention,and yes it is programmed in the human genes...
But brought about by complex human social behaviour over thousands of years.?
Please reflect...

That shows a remarkably shallow - no correct that - simply false understanding of how life evolved. There was NO 1st child, no 1st mother, no 1st human cry.

Life exist on a continuum. There are NO sharp brakes between the virus and us. Simply small variations that over time produce variety. This understanding voids the seeming paradox that a so erroneous understanding produces.

 

[zackcool]

Hi all,
There was...had to be... a primary cycle....a beginning.,
Why?
Perhaps,...for reason being.
Reasons for the creation of life.
Perhaps not so much for God ;;;but for the creations,,
The theory of big bang is widely accepted, as the beginning of life,
and for every beginning there will surely be the ending.
Perhaps it serves as a reminder to the creations...
Now why was God induced to do so?
Why do we like to feel loved ,
why do we like to be respected,,
why do we like to be Known???
Perhaps some of this character traits of ours was induced from God??
As such, perhaps God likes to to be respected,and likes to be known...

 

[McBell]

Hi all,
There was...had to be... a primary cycle....a beginning.,
Why?
Perhaps,...for reason being.
Reasons for the creation of life.
Perhaps not so much for God ;;;but for the creations,,
The theory of big bang is widely accepted, as the beginning of life,
and for every beginning there will surely be the ending.
Perhaps it serves as a reminder to the creations...
Now why was God induced to do so?
Why do we like to feel loved ,
why do we like to be respected,,
why do we like to be Known???
Perhaps some of this character traits of ours was induced from God??
As such, perhaps God likes to to be respected,and likes to be known...

Thief, Is that you?

 

[Thief]

Nope!....I got only the one call name...Thief.

 

[McBell]

Nope!....I got only the one call name...Thief.

Oh.
So sorry.
He is spouting the same non-sense in the same format....

 

[YmirGF]

He is spouting the same non-sense in the same format....

Evidently gibberish is a universal language.