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The Mysterious Alien Tablet

ecco

Veteran Member
The existence of God cannot be proven, nor can it be disproved.
If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?
Why does it matter to you. I am not preaching it. I am not telling you things to do based on my religion. You have a problem, take it up with someone else. I didn't name ya.

I get it. You're an activist atheist that gives all the other atheists a bad name. Fine. Why does it bother you so much that other people would have beliefs? Why do you have to challenge even those that do nothing to you?

Where are you going with this? What do you expect to achieve here? Is it going to be that if I provide some scientific information that you would be in agreement with, but since I am a Christian, you are going to challenge me on it? What? Come on dude. You're starting to look like a caricature.

If I provide information about science that is wrong, then call me on it. If you do, I will. If you provide factual information that I agree with, I will agree with you. If you say you are an atheist, I accept that and have no issues with it. If you call out a creationist for babbling their babble, I will probably have beaten you to it.

Where you going with this? You just looking for a fight? Do you feel the need to beat up on someone? Your entire point of this is lost on me, except as gratuitous behavior.

Good Golly, Miss Molly! I must have struck a nerve. Such vitriol! You made a comment with which I disagreed. In response, I asked a simple question: If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?

Calm down. If you feel you can't, or don't want to, answer a simple question you can just ignore it or state you don't want to answer. Instead, you got your panties all in a bunch and went off on me as though I had attacked your mother.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Good Golly, Miss Molly! I must have struck a nerve. Such vitriol! You made a comment with which I disagreed. In response, I asked a simple question: If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?

Calm down. If you feel you can't, or don't want to, answer a simple question you can just ignore it or state you don't want to answer. Instead, you got your panties all in a bunch and went off on me as though I had attacked your mother.
Not really. I just wanted to see where you would go with this. I lost interest a while back, but I see you did not.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco said:
Good Golly, Miss Molly! I must have struck a nerve. Such vitriol! You made a comment with which I disagreed. In response, I asked a simple question: If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?

Calm down. If you feel you can't, or don't want to, answer a simple question you can just ignore it or state you don't want to answer. Instead, you got your panties all in a bunch and went off on me as though I had attacked your mother.​

Not really. I just wanted to see where you would go with this. I lost interest a while back, but I see you did not.
You made a really long post for someone who supposedly "lost interest".
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
ecco said:
Good Golly, Miss Molly! I must have struck a nerve. Such vitriol! You made a comment with which I disagreed. In response, I asked a simple question: If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?

Calm down. If you feel you can't, or don't want to, answer a simple question you can just ignore it or state you don't want to answer. Instead, you got your panties all in a bunch and went off on me as though I had attacked your mother.​


You made a really long post for someone who supposedly "lost interest".
Are you still at it? Wow! So when are you proving that God exists? Or is it doesn't exist? Whatever? Have at it. I'll get the popcorn.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Are you still at it? Wow! So when are you proving that God exists? Or is it doesn't exist?
When?

Right after you answer my questions which you have avoided.
Did Atlas ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Did Shiva ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Did Olokun ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Did Set ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?

If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
When?

Right after you answer my questions which you have avoided.
OK. Here goes. Just for you. Since you said "Pretty Please with a Carrot on top".

Ecco has been begging me to answer these questions for weeks now.

Here are his questions with my answers following each.
Did Atlas ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Don't know.

Did Shiva ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Don't know.

Did Olokun ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Never heard of him/her/it. Don't know.

Did Set ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Set of what? Don't know.

If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?
Don't know. I know what I believe. I have no evidence. My belief is based on faith. My believing it harms no one. That people believe seems to bother you something fiercely and I find that funny. I am not here to prove my belief is true nor am I claiming it is objectively true. I believe it is, but I cannot demonstrate it nor have I ever claimed I can. If you can find where I have, then, by all means, produce that evidence. If you can find where I have invoked my religious beliefs in the defense of science or as an explanation for the physical, then, by all means, produce that evidence. If you can prove that no god exists, then, by all means, do so. You have claimed that you did not like my statement that was to the effect, "God cannot be demonstrated to exist and no one can demonstrate that God does not exist". This is true of many things, but people still believe in many things. What you choose to believe or not is your own business and I do not attack you for not having a belief in a god. It does no harm to me at all that you do not believe. I am perfectly OK with it and have never tried to corner someone or throw them into a "gotcha" trap because they do not believe.

OK now? Will you stop begging for these answers? Here they are?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Here are his questions with my answers following each.
Did Atlas ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Don't know.

Did Shiva ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Don't know.

Did Olokun ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Never heard of him/her/it. Don't know.

Did Set ever exist or was he the creation of man's imaginings?
Set of what? Don't know.

If all gods (except one) were the creation of man's imaginings, why do you suppose that one is real?
Don't know.

I wouldn't consider "don't know" to be a really a good foundation to build anything on. But, to each his own.




I know what I believe. I have no evidence. My belief is based on faith. My believing it harms no one. That people believe seems to bother you something fiercely and I find that funny.

It doesn't bother me one way or the other. It's interesting that some people would believe something without any understanding of why they believe it. It's puzzling, to me, that some people believe in something, know they don't know why they believe and make no effort to determine why.

... If you can prove that no god exists, then, by all means, do so. You have claimed that you did not like my statement that was to the effect, "God cannot be demonstrated to exist and no one can demonstrate that God does not exist".

Well, if you believe that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun, et al may be real gods and not just the creation of man's imaginings, then I would find it hard to demonstrate anything to you.

But thanks for the honest responses.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I wouldn't consider "don't know" to be a really a good foundation to build anything on. But, to each his own.






It doesn't bother me one way or the other. It's interesting that some people would believe something without any understanding of why they believe it. It's puzzling, to me, that some people believe in something, know they don't know why they believe and make no effort to determine why.



Well, if you believe that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun, et al may be real gods and not just the creation of man's imaginings, then I would find it hard to demonstrate anything to you.

But thanks for the honest responses.
In all candor, I did not expect you to provide an argument against what I said regarding the existence of God.

Though I would have been interested to see your attempts.

I myself, cannot prove that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun (whoever or whatever that is) or any other believed entity or object does not exist no matter whether a person considers some, all or none of them to be the imaginings of people. The same is true for elves, fairies, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and manbearpig. Though, I do wonder about manbearpig.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
In all candor, I did not expect you to provide an argument against what I said regarding the existence of God.

Though I would have been interested to see your attempts.

I myself, cannot prove that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun (whoever or whatever that is) or any other believed entity or object does not exist no matter whether a person considers some, all or none of them to be the imaginings of people. The same is true for elves, fairies, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and manbearpig. Though, I do wonder about manbearpig.

If you can believe that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun, elves, fairies, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and manbearpig can possibly be real, then any dialog with you on this subject would be useless.

I hope your god doesn't take offense at your indiscriminate belief system.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
If you can believe that Atlas, Shiva, Olokun, elves, fairies, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and manbearpig can possibly be real, then any dialog with you on this subject would be useless.

I hope your god doesn't take offense at your indiscriminate belief system.
I did not say I believed they were real. I said that I cannot prove they do not exist.

I suppose that any issues God has with me will be something I have to deal with personally. It is not something anyone else would have any say in, unless you are trying to tell me that you are God.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
See were it to happen like that you'd love it to prove alien Intellegent life from outer space. Yet that same proof when it's right here you prove the hypocrisy of proof for you & it's not really about science or proof.
Science don’t really do “proof” or “proving”, that belonged to mathematics and jobs of mathematicians.

Proof is a logical statement, like equation, formula or metric constant.

When mathematicians or theoretical physicists attempted to “prove” something, what they are actually trying to do is to solve or simplify complex equations.

The equation solving or number games, are only abstract representations of the real world, not the real world itself.

Note that I wrote “theoretical physicists” above.

Theoretical physics only possible or potential explanation or solution they are trying to solve, but they are not accepted as “science”.

Science do evidences, not proofs.

Evidences come from verifiable observations or from reproducible and repeatable experiments. These evidences provide real world data, real world solutions.

Evidences are what scientists use to debunk flawed hypotheses and pseudoscience, as well as verifying probable hypotheses.

All science some maths or proofs (eg equations, formulas or constants) because maths are useful tools...HOWEVER, maths don’t actually test if the hypotheses are probable or improbable; that’s done with observable and verifiable evidences or with experiments.

People who study very little science, often confuse “proof” and “evidence”, as you seem to be doing. Among scientists and mathematicians, they are not synonymous, they distinguished between the two.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ducks rock.
HopefulVacantJaeger-size_restricted.gif
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Allow me.

Puppy dogs are cute. Sunsets are beautiful. People make computers. A weird computer and what might be a spacecraft could be evidence for ET. Therefore, intelligent design.
... therefore (wink wink) Jehovah!

I first encountered the all-too-common ID argument via analogy many many years ago. I was initially very surprised that so many people found it compelling - 'the brain is alike a computer, and an intelligence makes computers, so... (wink wink)... DNA/gene expression is like a computer or a language, and it takes intelligence to make computers, so... (wink wink).

So.... I guess the best they can do is present analogies whose only real "conclusion" or "lesson" is that they think human intelligence created brains and DNA and the universe...?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Don't bother. Even if we can't read that prticular article, I'm sure most of us have read a few other articles from CreationMagazine.com



There is nothing new here. It is just the same old GodDidIt stories rehashed ad nauseam.
I am always amazed at how frequently one finds exclamation marks in creation "science"...
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I still find it incredibly ironic that all these Dr that write for the sites I use all graduated from Universities that only taught evolution. Most believed that until the science itself began to fall apart.

That is, how can I put this - a lie.

Not yours, most likely, but a lie nonetheless.

You see, that is called 'witnessing', I think. The professional or wannabe-professional creationists almost always claim that this is the case (a few are "honest", admitting that they were creationists all along but just wanted 'credentials' to make their 'arguments' seem more impressive; e.g., Jon Wells, Jon Sarfati).

My favorite most blatant example is one Dr. Steve Austin, creationist geologist at the ICR.

His 'conversion' fantasy is that he was old-earth evolutionist until he studied at Mt. St. Helens in the 1980s after it erupted. He claims that what he saw there, somehow, as if by magic, converted him from an old-earth evolutionist to a YEC biblical literalist.. Just like that. The Power of God is amazing!

Yeah, well...


Problem is, he was writing creationist screeds at least 4 years prior to the eruption under the pseudonym "Stuart Nevins".

But for some reason, he still tells of his "conversion", and YECs dolts still find it compelling.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Ok so here's the deal. You're trying to tell or sell me on the idea or concept that language, be it written, oral, sign etc shows no sign of Intelligence & just comes about w/o any Intelligence involved. That's what evolution sells.
Not at all.

Your YEC heroes are trying to tell you that because humans make things like computers, and that because we can sort of kind of look at DNA like a computer, therefore, DNA was made by humans.

No evolutionist says that language is not 'written' by an intelligence - we know that human intelligence is the source of everything we consider to be a language.

The problem comes in when we use the general concept of language to describe something else - like computer software or DNA activity - for simplicity. There are many people that do not grasp the subtlety of the analogies and think that they are somehow direct applications.


We use the 'language analogy' for DNA because it make sit easier for students to grasp the interactions of the molecules involved in gene expression.

We use the language analogy for computer workings for the same reason. We call writing software coding because that is what we call that activity. And we, unfortunately, also call the genetic code a code because calling it that make sit easier to understand, not.


Creationists forget that words and phrases and meanings and analogies have the meanings WE give them.


So go ahead & make your pitch & sell me on the idea, concept that communication between people, things ie computers etc don't need intelligence.
Why the strawman? Is this your defense mechanism?

Why can't creation 'science' just produce some, you know, SCIENCE that would convince skeptics that their middle eastern tales are grounded in reality? Why rely on these just-so stories and analogies and lame attempts to poke holes in evolution? Is it because these amazing scientists CANNOT find anything scientific to support their position?

Sure seems that way to me.
As a computer any of you give me your best shot. As a linguist give me your best shot. As a deaf person give me your best shot. I don't care who or what you do.

As a creationist, give your best shot at explaining how creationism explains anything.
You show me & convince me communication can be done w/o INTELLIGENCE being involved.
You mean you want us to prove that creationist analogies that rely on apparent strawman fallacies are realistic?

Isn't that YOUR job??
I can hardly wait to see these. Now I have to go take my computer & put in the shop & go out to eat with my wife. I really thank God that we all will have intelligence so we can communicate with understanding.

Now sell me how intelligence was never ever needed for any of this or these things. They just evolved per evolution.

Have a good evening.

Strawman, then a burden shifting fallacy to cover up the strawman.

Most creationists are ignorant AND lazy.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
... therefore (wink wink) Jehovah!

I first encountered the all-too-common ID argument via analogy many many years ago. I was initially very surprised that so many people found it compelling - 'the brain is alike a computer, and an intelligence makes computers, so... (wink wink)... DNA/gene expression is like a computer or a language, and it takes intelligence to make computers, so... (wink wink).

So.... I guess the best they can do is present analogies whose only real "conclusion" or "lesson" is that they think human intelligence created brains and DNA and the universe...?
There are a couple of examples from the movie "A Flock of Dodos" and one always come to mind when the subject comes up. There was Dover school official attempting to equate the human intelligence behind Mt. Rushmore as evidence for design in nature. At least it he used a different basis than computers. I haven't seen the film in a while, but I think the other used the comparison with computers.
 
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