The Mystery Thread

[Bird123]

Not by a long shot. Nothing you posted is any different in substance from what others have said. The Bahais and the Mormons and the Pentecostalists will all say the same thing to you. How is it that you have not discovered their truth?




Stating that I love my beliefs is childishly silly. That's just one more example of why I don't take people like you seriously.






So, you can't regale me with something I don't have a clue about. I didn't think you could.



Let's see, I still have my gyroscope from when I was a kid. I still have no supernatural spiritual beliefs.

I guess you are wrong again.


There you go again with your childishly silly comments.

See below.



So how did you go about your road to discovery? Remember, you said I was wrong getting my information from what other people said and wrote.

Did you just wander around smelling the roses and coming to the conclusion that the roses and the earth and the universe were all just created by your version of a god?

While wandering around I guess you never listened to dissenting voices. How is that being open-minded?



By your own words, you didn't do a very thorough job of investigating. Maybe you spent a lot of time in a sweat lodge chewing peyote. That's a sure way to get religious visions.



What I am missing is a belief in an imaginary man in the sky. Boo Hoo.




Man has been creating gods for thousands of years. The only puzzle is how you cannot see that.




Do you really think you are the first person who has said that? Pap is pap.

Are you so sure of your ways that you never question them?

Once again religion has corrupted your view to value Beliefs. I have never asked you to believe anything.

Man has been creating gods for a thousands of years. Have you ever wondered why?

There is a Great difference from creating and discovering.

Discovery takes work. Believing is so easy. Go ahead, believe God does not exist. It doesn't matter anyway. You will accomplish what you are here for regardless.

One can travel great distances taking baby steps given enough time and there is an eternity of that.

AS for me, I will continue to be that Hungry Student. There is so much to be Discovered.

I hope you choose to make your Journey a Happy one. It has always been just up to you.

 

[ecco]

...

Bird's comments in black
ecco's response in red


Are you so sure of your ways that you never question them?
Do you still question 2+2=4?


Once again religion has corrupted your view to value Beliefs.

That's too ambiguous to address.

I have never asked you to believe anything.

I never claimed you did.

Man has been creating gods for a thousands of years. Have you ever wondered why?

Sure. To answer questions for which, at the time, there were no answers. Like:
Where did we come from?
Why are there bad people?
Why don't the rains come anymore?
Why does it rain so much?
What happens when we die?

Also to provide backing for laws and rules. "God will punish you if you do bad".

Have you never wondered why man created gods? Did it even occur to you to wonder? Or was your indoctrination so complete?

There is a Great difference from creating and discovering.

There is ample evidence for man creating gods. In order for there to be "discovering", there has to be evidence for something to be discovered. There isn't - other than blind faith.

Discovery takes work. Believing is so easy. Go ahead, believe God does not exist.

Yes, believing in a god is easy. Especially if people are raised in a culture where almost everyone believes. That's why Americans believe in Jesus and Muslims believe in Allah and Hindus believe in Shiva.

Finding the truth, that all gods are man's creations does take work.

AS for me, I will continue to be that Hungry Student.

Nah. You can pretend to be, but you aren't. The very concept of no God would shatter your psyche completely.

I hope you choose to make your Journey a Happy one. It has always been just up to you.

My journey has been and is a happy one. One not burdened by images of an invisible man in the sky.

 

[Jose Fly]

No, i used philosophical conditions and used logical arguments. I did not use religious conditions. No, i certainly did not.

Yes you did. "God wouldn't do that because I don't believe God would be deceitful" is a religious condition.

Again. You provided the 2 definitions of religion and philosophy and yet you cant see the difference in demonstration?

Go back and look at the definitions again. The primary difference between religion and philosophy is that religion invokes God and the supernatural and philosophy doesn't. You've invoked God and the supernatural throughout this thread.

You could say its a religious belief, but, its also philosophical as well. Why? Because if creation dont look like one day old, then logically it probably isnt. Thats a philosophical position.

No it's not. The only reason you gave for why that isn't possible was because you didn't believe God would do that (it would make God deceitful), even though it's entirely within God's abilities. That's a religious argument.

Again, if your next response is more of the same, I see no point in continuing.

 

[Jollybear]

Yes you did. "God wouldn't do that because I don't believe God would be deceitful" is a religious condition.

Yes, but, your ignoring the philosophical conditions. God would not create the universe in millions of years and make it appear as one day old, due to the fact that it dont look like one day old. Thats philosophical.

Also a infinite God cannot create a rock so big he cannot lift it. Thats philosophical.

Go back and look at the definitions again. The primary difference between religion and philosophy is that religion invokes God and the supernatural and philosophy doesn't. You've invoked God and the supernatural throughout this thread.

No, thats false. Philosophy can invoke God, and it can invoke no God. Philosophy works both ways. Great philosophers in ancient times, like plato, aristottle, they invoked God.

No it's not. The only reason you gave for why that isn't possible was because you didn't believe God would do that (it would make God deceitful), even though it's entirely within God's abilities. That's a religious argument.

No. No. No. Thats not the only reason i gave. I gave also the reason that he cannot do certain things based on logic. If he made the universe in millions of years and made it look one day old, or vise versa, one day old and made it look millions of years and feel like millions too. Thats not logical because of our experience. So, thats philosophical.

Again, if your next response is more of the same, I see no point in continuing.

I wanna ask you this question.

Do you agree that this statement is philosophical or religious > a infinite God cannot create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

 

[Bird123]

Bird's comments in black
ecco's response in red


Are you so sure of your ways that you never question them?
Do you still question 2+2=4?


Once again religion has corrupted your view to value Beliefs.

That's too ambiguous to address.

I have never asked you to believe anything.

I never claimed you did.

Man has been creating gods for a thousands of years. Have you ever wondered why?

Sure. To answer questions for which, at the time, there were no answers. Like:
Where did we come from?
Why are there bad people?
Why don't the rains come anymore?
Why does it rain so much?
What happens when we die?

Also to provide backing for laws and rules. "God will punish you if you do bad".

Have you never wondered why man created gods? Did it even occur to you to wonder? Or was your indoctrination so complete?

There is a Great difference from creating and discovering.

There is ample evidence for man creating gods. In order for there to be "discovering", there has to be evidence for something to be discovered. There isn't - other than blind faith.

Discovery takes work. Believing is so easy. Go ahead, believe God does not exist.

Yes, believing in a god is easy. Especially if people are raised in a culture where almost everyone believes. That's why Americans believe in Jesus and Muslims believe in Allah and Hindus believe in Shiva.

Finding the truth, that all gods are man's creations does take work.

AS for me, I will continue to be that Hungry Student.

Nah. You can pretend to be, but you aren't. The very concept of no God would shatter your psyche completely.

I hope you choose to make your Journey a Happy one. It has always been just up to you.

My journey has been and is a happy one. One not burdened by images of an invisible man in the sky.

People look for God because they know the Spiritual connection of who they are. Religion is mankind's attempt to find God. Of course, being a creation of mankind, it reflects mankind and so many of the petty things mankind values.

In my early years when I realized so much of religion simply did not add up, I began a journey to Discover the Real Truth. When one searches for the Real Truth, one must be open to all possibilities. My journey to discover the Real Truth was open to all possibilities,even if that Truth was that God did not exist.

One thing is true. If one does not seek, one does not discover. Clearly, you are satisfied with your Belief that God does not exist. That is your choice. Great. On the other hand, won't you be surprised when you bump into God again.

Mankind is not the greatest intelligence that exists.

 

[ecco]

Yes, but, your ignoring the philosophical conditions.

phil·o·soph·i·cal
/ˌfiləˈsäfək(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

re·li·gious
/rəˈlijəs/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or believing in a religion.

It's pretty clear who is ignoring what.

 

[Jollybear]

phil·o·soph·i·cal
/ˌfiləˈsäfək(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

re·li·gious
/rəˈlijəs/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or believing in a religion.

It's pretty clear who is ignoring what.

Its pretty clear who is yes. Its not me.

 

[ecco]

People look for God because they know the Spiritual connection of who they are. Religion is mankind's attempt to find God.

No, it isn't. Don't you know what the word "religion" means. Here, I'll help you.

re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
   • a particular system of faith and worship.

My journey to discover the Real Truth was open to all possibilities,even if that Truth was that God did not exist.

Uh huh.

On the other hand, won't you be surprised when you bump into God again.

Yes, I certainly would be.

You, on the other hand, will never learn the truth.

 

[ecco]

Its pretty clear who is yes. Its not me.

That would be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

[Jollybear]

That would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Let me just ask you what i asked josey.

Is this question a religious question or a philosophical one? >

Can an infinite God create a rock so big he cannot lift? Answer, no.

 

[Bird123]

No, it isn't. Don't you know what the word "religion" means. Here, I'll help you.

re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
   • a particular system of faith and worship.

Uh huh.


Yes, I certainly would be.

You, on the other hand, will never learn the truth.

As with all things, you must look deeper especially with the simple dictionary definition of religion. You miss so very much when you choose to restrict your view.

I do not understand when you say I will never learn the truth. A Hungry student does Learn. In fact everyone Learns and Grows regardless.

If you assume I will never learn the truth about God, you are misled by your assumption.

OK, if I were to assume God does not exist, then I would also have to assume you do not exist. If I do this I would no longer be wanting the truth. I would be attempting to create a false reality.

I can not say you do not exist because I have direct evidence you do. I have direct evidence God exists as well. If you want me to start valuing Beliefs, then I run into the very same problem with you that I had with religion so many years ago.

I will not blindly accept your Belief nor will I blindly accept religion's belief. I'm the guy who will always venture into undiscovered country to Discover the Real Truth.

Yes, Greater intelligence than mankind does exist. AS I see it. Being hurt by religion is no excuse for believing the opposite without regard of what the Real Truth actually is.

 

[ecco]

Let me just ask you what i asked josey.

Is this question a religious question or a philosophical one? >

Considering that you do not know the difference between religious and philosophical, why are you even asking this question?

Can an infinite God create a rock so big he cannot lift? Answer, no.

First off, I think you mean an omnipotent god, not an infinite god.
Second, any question referencing a god is, by definition, a religious question.

I suggest you go back and read, and try to understand, the definitions I posted.

 

[ecco]

I will not blindly accept your Belief.

All superstitious beliefs are based on blind belief. You have blindly accepted your superstitious beliefs.

Yes, Greater intelligence than mankind does exist.

Considering the vastness of the universe, I'm quite certain that there are species who have greater intelligence than earthly humans. But, that's not what you were referring to, is it?

Being hurt by religion is no excuse for believing the opposite without regard of what the Real Truth actually is.

I'm sorry to hear you were hurt by religion.

 

[Bird123]

All superstitious beliefs are based on blind belief. You have blindly accepted your superstitious beliefs.


Considering the vastness of the universe, I'm quite certain that there are species who have greater intelligence than earthly humans. But, that's not what you were referring to, is it?



I'm sorry to hear you were hurt by religion.

Have I really blindly accepted any superstitious beliefs? Don't I Question everything? Perhaps there is something that can be Discovered rather than believed.

How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? Maybe, you should think in beliefs instead. If man was meant to fly, he would of had Wings.

As I see it. All the secrets of the universe Stare us in the face. This leaves one with two choices. One can choose to value beliefs, thereby seeing only what they want to see. Or one can choose to Discover what it's all about. From my point of view, Reality is so much better. I could never value beliefs as so many people do.

 

[Jollybear]

Considering that you do not know the difference between religious and philosophical, why are you even asking this question?

Im asking because you wanna tell me i dont understand. So, answer my question and we will see who truely does not understand.

First off, I think you mean an omnipotent god, not an infinite god.

No, i meant an infinite God. That is, outsidr space. Infinitely big.

Second, any question referencing a god is, by definition, a religious question.

Logic works behind assumptions. Do you understand this?

I suggest you go back and read, and try to understand, the definitions I posted.

I suggest you stop beating around the bush and answer my question.

Can an infinite God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? Is this a religious or philosophical question? If its religious, explain?

 

[ecco]

No, i meant an infinite God. That is, outsidr space. Infinitely big.

Infinite does not mean outside space. You cannot make up your own definitions for words.

I suggest you stop beating around the bush and answer my question.
Can an infinite God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

Again, the word you are looking for is omnipotent, not infinite. That being said, it is a nonsensical question because there is no such thing as a God.

Is this a religious or philosophical question? If its religious, explain?

It's a religious question, not a philosophical question because:

re·li·gious
/rəˈlijəs/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or believing in a religion.

phil·o·soph·i·cal
/ˌfiləˈsäfək(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

If you understood these basic definitions you would not need to ask the question.

 

[ecco]

Have I really blindly accepted any superstitious beliefs? Don't I Question everything? Perhaps there is something that can be Discovered rather than believed.

Many things have been discovered. The origin of man has been discovered; The cause of volcanoes has been discovered; The cause of planetary motions has been discovered. I'm a big fan of discovery, but I don't see any need to capitalize the "D".

How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? Maybe, you should think in beliefs instead. If man was meant to fly, he would of had Wings.

First you tout "Discovery", now you suggest I should think in terms of "beliefs". For the record, I'll take discovery over beliefs any day.

As I see it. All the secrets of the universe Stare us in the face. This leaves one with two choices. One can choose to value beliefs, thereby seeing only what they want to see. Or one can choose to Discover what it's all about.

Now you're back to touting Discovery (with a capital D) over beliefs.

From my point of view, Reality is so much better. I could never value beliefs as so many people do.

And yet, if I'm not mistaken, you believe in a magic man in the sky as so many people do. Strange indeed.

 

[Jollybear]

Infinite does not mean outside space. You cannot make up your own definitions for words.

No, i dont mean omnipotent. I mean exactly what i said. Infinite.

And im not making up my own definitions.

Here is the definition of infinite according to the dictionary web.

"limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God"
synonyms: boundless, unbounded, unlimited, limitless, without limit, without end, never-ending"

Also, dont tell me what i mean by terms i use. Ill be the one to do that, not you. Its your job to refute my point, not tell me what my point is. Got it?

Again, the word you are looking for is omnipotent, not infinite. That being said, it is a nonsensical question because there is no such thing as a God.

Wrong. Infinite. And you assume no God.

It's a religious question, not a philosophical question because:

re·li·gious
/rəˈlijəs/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or believing in a religion.

phil·o·soph·i·cal
/ˌfiləˈsäfək(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

If you understood these basic definitions you would not need to ask the question.

Ok, if God is real, isnt that then a part of "reality" and "knowledge"?

Also, one more thing. Is logic a part of philosophy?

Also, when using logic, are there assumptions behind using it?

Answer those questions for me and we shall see how smart you really are. Because so far you just come across as a smart aleck.

 

[Bird123]

Many things have been discovered. The origin of man has been discovered; The cause of volcanoes has been discovered; The cause of planetary motions has been discovered. I'm a big fan of discovery, but I don't see any need to capitalize the "D".

First you tout "Discovery", now you suggest I should think in terms of "beliefs". For the record, I'll take discovery over beliefs any day.


Now you're back to touting Discovery (with a capital D) over beliefs.


And yet, if I'm not mistaken, you believe in a magic man in the sky as so many people do. Strange indeed.

You still don't get it. DISCOVERY IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!!!!! Why do you think you are here on Earth?

I do not believe in a magic man in the sky as so many people do. Just as I know you exist, I know God exists. Beliefs are not involved.

Once again, I see you value Beliefs over all else. Beliefs only point a direction by which one can search to Discover the truth. Beliefs are not a stopping point. On the other hand, moving beyond beliefs takes work. People can choose to do anything but work. Perhaps that's why a catalyst is needed to move people in the direction of learning. So many would do nothing if not for adversity knocking on the door.

 

[ecco]

No, i meant an infinite God. That is,
outsidr space.

Infinite does not mean outside space. You cannot make up your own definitions for words.

No, i dont mean omnipotent. I mean exactly what i said. Infinite. And im not making up my own definitions.

Here is the definition of infinite according to the dictionary web.

"limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God"
synonyms: boundless, unbounded, unlimited, limitless, without limit, without end, never-ending"

Also, dont tell me what i mean by terms i use. Ill be the one to do that, not you. Its your job to refute my point, not tell me what my point is. Got it?

You, yourself, just stated a definition of infinite:

endless in space​

Notice the word "IN"?

Earlier you insisted that infinite was:

That is, outsidr space.
​

However, I will no longer tell you what the meanings of words are. But if you want to intentionally misuse words, then there is no point in my having a conversation with you.

If a person says the world is flat and then defines flat as round, it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation.