The Mystery Thread

[ecco]

You still don't get it. DISCOVERY IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!!!!! Why do you think you are here on Earth?

I do not believe in a magic man in the sky as so many people do. Just as I know you exist, I know God exists. Beliefs are not involved.

Ahh, some people just believe their magic man in the sky exists, you KNOW your magic man in the sky exists. May I ask on what you base this knowledge?

Once again, I see you value Beliefs over all else.

That's a baseless assertion. I clearly stated:

Many things have been discovered. The origin of man has been discovered; The cause of volcanoes has been discovered; The cause of planetary motions has been discovered. I'm a big fan of discovery, but I don't see any need to capitalize the "D".
​

From what do you conclude that I value beliefs over discovery?

 

[Jollybear]

You, yourself, just stated a definition of infinite:

endless in space​

Notice the word "IN"?

Earlier you insisted that infinite was:

That is, outsidr space.
​

However, I will no longer tell you what the meanings of words are. But if you want to intentionally misuse words, then there is no point in my having a conversation with you.

If a person says the world is flat and then defines flat as round, it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

According to the big bang, space had a beginning, along with time, matter and energy. So, space EXPANDS.

Now, if this theory is correct, then space is not infinite. This would mean God is outside or bigger then space.

If space is infinite, then God is infinite in space.

Are you hearing me?

The crux of the matter is this, im defining God as infinite. I define infinite as unlimitedly big. I do not define it as omnipotent as you suggested.

Now back to my question.

This is how logic works: logic has assumptions surrounding it. Ok?

So, lets assume God exists for the moment and lets assume hes infinite.

Now, heres the logic question: can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? Yes or no?

If you answer no, your logical, if you answer yes, your defiant of logic.

Do you see this? Yes or no?

 

[ecco]

According to the big bang, space had a beginning, along with time, matter and energy. So, space EXPANDS.

Now, if this theory is correct, then space is not infinite.

OK so far.

This would mean God is outside or bigger then space.
If space is infinite, then God is infinite in space.

You just stated that space is not infinite.

Also, even if space is infinite, it doesn't mean something inside it (your god) is infinite. If you live in a 20000 cubic foot house doesn't mean you are 20000 cubic feet.

Are you hearing me?

I'm hearing a lot of confusion.

The crux of the matter is this, im defining God as infinite. I define infinite as unlimitedly big. I do not define it as omnipotent as you suggested.

OK. Your god is infinite. Your god is not omnipotent.
I'm glad you cleared that up.

Now back to my question.

This is how logic works: logic has assumptions surrounding it. Ok?

So, lets assume God exists for the moment and lets assume hes infinite.

Now, heres the logic question: can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? Yes or no?

Stating your god is infinite says nothing about his abilities and capabilities. Therefore your question does not contain enough information on which to base an answer.

The word that describes the limits (or non-limits) of a god is "omnipotent". I've told you this before. I even took the time to paste the definitions so you wouldn't have to. But if you don't want to read and understand the definitions, then it will continue to be impossible for you to properly formulate an intelligent question.

 

[Jollybear]

OK so far.




You just stated that space is not infinite.

Also, even if space is infinite, it doesn't mean something inside it (your god) is infinite. If you live in a 20000 cubic foot house doesn't mean you are 20000 cubic feet.



I'm hearing a lot of confusion.



OK. Your god is infinite. Your god is not omnipotent.
I'm glad you cleared that up.



Stating your god is infinite says nothing about his abilities and capabilities. Therefore your question does not contain enough information on which to base an answer.

The word that describes the limits (or non-limits) of a god is "omnipotent". I've told you this before. I even took the time to paste the definitions so you wouldn't have to. But if you don't want to read and understand the definitions, then it will continue to be impossible for you to properly formulate an intelligent question.

What is so hard to understand here?

Assume for the moment God exists. Assume God is infinitely big. Assume also God can create.

Now, logic question: can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? Yes or no.

 

[ecco]

What is so hard to understand here?

Assume for the moment God exists. Assume God is infinitely big. Assume also God can create.

Now, logic question: can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? Yes or no.

If you cannot understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Jollybear]

If you cannot understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.

I do understand that difference. But i want to know if you understand how logic works. I want to see if you understand assumptions surround logic.

Do you understand this?

 

[ecco]

ecco previously said:

If you cannot understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.​

I do understand that difference. But i want to know if you understand how logic works. I want to see if you understand assumptions surround logic.

Do you understand this?

Since you refuse to want to understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Do you understand this?

But, I'll let you get the last word - make it good.

 

[Jollybear]

ecco previously said:

If you cannot understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.​

Since you refuse to want to understand the difference between size (infinite) and strength (omnipotent) there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Do you understand this?

But, I'll let you get the last word - make it good.

Lol, the last word isnt what i want.

I do understand the difference between infinite and omnipotent. Infinite is unlimitedly large. Omnipotent is having unlimited power to do anything.

I understand the difference.

But what im trying to get accross to you is based on LOGIC, God cannot be omnipotent.

If God is infinite, then logically he cannot create a rock so big he cannot lift it. Hence he cannot do something. This means he has not the power to create a rock so big he cannot lift it.

Also, an eternal being cannot make himself none existent.

You see?

 

[Polymath257]

According to the big bang, space had a beginning, along with time, matter and energy. So, space EXPANDS.

Now, if this theory is correct, then space is not infinite. This would mean God is outside or bigger then space.

This does not follow. It is quite possible for space to expand even if it is infinite. All that is required is that the distances between all points increase over time. This is possible even in an infinite universe.

 

[Jollybear]

This does not follow. It is quite possible for space to expand even if it is infinite. All that is required is that the distances between all points increase over time. This is possible even in an infinite universe.

Ok....but, whether space is infinite or not, expands or not, is neither here nor there in the bigger scope of the point im trying to drive home.

Im trying to make a logic point.

Im trying to show how logic works.

Logic has assumptions behind it.

So, assume God exists. Then assume hes infinite. Now, heres the logic question: can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

Logically, no he couldn't.

 

[Bird123]

Ahh, some people just believe their magic man in the sky exists, you KNOW your magic man in the sky exists. May I ask on what you base this knowledge?






That's a baseless assertion. I clearly stated:

Many things have been discovered. The origin of man has been discovered; The cause of volcanoes has been discovered; The cause of planetary motions has been discovered. I'm a big fan of discovery, but I don't see any need to capitalize the "D".
​

From what do you conclude that I value beliefs over discovery?

Your first assumption is that God is a Magic Man. Magic is not God. You forget how well the universe works. The math does add up. God adds up. How God does things adds up. All the ways stare us all in the face. Now from a lack of understanding you can say it's all magic, but that would be a voice from one who really does not care to know.

What do I base that God exists? Ask yourself. What do I base that you exist? How hard can it be? Am I dreaming you? Give me a break!

I conclude you value beliefs over discovery simply because you recite your beliefs without taking the first effort to discover anything. You believe you already know all the answers.

Yes, discovery. Has mankind discovered the origin of man? Once again much more lives beyond the surface waiting to be discovered. There is more not known about the creation of mankind than is known. You have not even addressed the Spiritual beings who we really are and have only the very basic knowledge of the physical.

If everything is known about volcanoes, why do people still die from them? You want me to tell you why? It's because there is much more to learn.

Do you really think mankind has celestial mechanics down? Sure, they have the very basics, but so much is missing from their knowledge.

You still did not answer my question. Why are you here? Why do you exist? What is the purpose for you being on Earth? Explain the Why of it all. Is it Magic? Is it Random Chance?? Are you only a physical body? Yes, there are reasons for everything. Give me some of yours.

 

[ecco]

Your first assumption is that God is a Magic Man. Magic is not God. You forget how well the universe works. The math does add up. God adds up. How God does things adds up. All the ways stare us all in the face. Now from a lack of understanding you can say it's all magic, but that would be a voice from one who really does not care to know.

Perhaps it is you who does not want to know that "Magic Man in the Sky" is a sarcastic reference to gods. It has nothing to do with magic.

What do I base that God exists? Ask yourself. What do I base that you exist? How hard can it be? Am I dreaming you? Give me a break!

You base my existence on the fact that I'm typing these posts. Did your god ever type any posts to you? On the other hand, maybe you just posted a really bad analogy.

I conclude you value beliefs over discovery simply because you recite your beliefs without taking the first effort to discover anything.

That's your religious holier than thou ego talking. You know nothing of me and my life. Your lack of knowledge is compounded by the fact you have difficulty understanding what I have, repeatedly, stated about discovery and believing.

You believe you already know all the answers.

Another silly comment.

Yes, discovery. Has mankind discovered the origin of man?

The origin of man? Yes. I realize you do not believe in evolution. But that's your problem.

Once again much more lives beyond the surface waiting to be discovered.

Yes, there is a lot more to be discovered. There's no reason to make it sound mystical by using phrases like "much more lives beyond the surface ".

You have not even addressed the Spiritual beings who we really are.

What do you mean by "Spiritual beings"?

Do you really think mankind has celestial mechanics down? Sure, they have the very basics, but so much is missing from their knowledge.

OK. So, what's your point?


In the following, my responses are in red...

You still did not answer my question. Why are you here?

My father impregnated my mother.​

Why do you exist?

My father impregnated my mother.​

What is the purpose for you being on Earth?

Why do you think there is or needs to be a purpose? What is the purpose of the moon? Do you think the moon exists so that we get high and low tides?​

Explain the Why of it all.

Explain why you need a why.​

Is it Magic?

No. It's nature.​

Is it Random Chance??

Nope. It's nature.​

Are you only a physical body?

Nope. I have a brain.​

Yes, there are reasons for everything.

The reason for woo is that people believe in superstitious nonsense. Don't you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bird123]

Perhaps it is you who does not want to know that "Magic Man in the Sky" is a sarcastic reference to gods. It has nothing to do with magic.






You base my existence on the fact that I'm typing these posts. Did your god ever type any posts to you? On the other hand, maybe you just posted a really bad analogy.



That's your religious holier than thou ego talking. You know nothing of me and my life. Your lack of knowledge is compounded by the fact you have difficulty understanding what I have, repeatedly, stated about discovery and believing.


Another silly comment.


The origin of man? Yes. I realize you do not believe in evolution. But that's your problem.



Yes, there is a lot more to be discovered. There's no reason to make it sound mystical by using phrases like "much more lives beyond the surface ".


What do you mean by "Spiritual beings"?



OK. So, what's your point?


In the following, my responses are in red...




The reason for woo is that people believe in superstitious nonsense. Don't you.

[/QUOTE]




Take that moon away and you will discover it's purpose.

Does God type posts to me?? Now who is being silly. How about this: If God exists, then God can be found.

Evolution is a small part of the picture. Creation knowledge runs deeper than the surface. On the other hand God created the universe to unfold in such a way that given enough time it will be discovered. Poof creation is not reality. Reality adds up.

When you ask about Spiritual beings, it's clear you do not even know who you are. It's another avenue one could explore.

I get it that you came from your mother and father. Why and for what reason do people exist? Why do you exist? What is your purpose in life? What is it all about? AS you see it, Does eternity have purpose? What is that purpose?

Look around you. Doesn't everything have purpose? Have you really never asked yourself these questions?

As I see it, just as all the physics add up so does the People factor. Since there are more variables, the people factor is more complex. The dynamics are amazing.

Do I really know nothing about you? Your words and your actions teach me who you are. Are you sure you know who you really are?

 

[ecco]

...

ecco's responses in red
Take that moon away and you will discover it's purpose.
What?

How about this: If God exists, then God can be found.
How about this: People have found the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, Big-headed aliens. "Finding things" only proves that people are gullible.





Evolution is a small part of the picture. Creation knowledge runs deeper than the surface.

"Creation knowledge" is an oxymoron.

On the other hand God created the universe to unfold in such a way that given enough time it will be discovered. Poof creation is not reality. Reality adds up.
That's your opinion, nothing more.




When you ask about Spiritual beings, it's clear you do not even know who you are. It's another avenue one could explore.
I have no interest in exploring woo other than to debunk it whenever possible.


I get it that you came from your mother and father. Why and for what reason do people exist? Why do you exist? What is your purpose in life? What is it all about? AS you see it, Does eternity have purpose? What is that purpose?

The "whys" that you refer to all fall under the umbrella of woo. Nature doesn't have a why.


Look around you. Doesn't everything have purpose?
Sure my car has a purpose. Man-made things have a purpose. Nature is not man-made.

Have you really never asked yourself these questions?
What questions? Why some people believe in woo? Sure, I've asked those questions and I have a pretty good theory.

Do I really know nothing about you? Your words and your actions teach me who you are. Are you sure you know who you really are?
Well, there's your incredible ego asserting itself again. You've read a couple of posts and you think you know more about me than I do. You could probably get a great job with the CIA spotting terrorists.

On the other hand, they would probably not accept you because they can spot a holier than thou phony just as easily as I can.

 

[Bird123]

ecco's responses in red
Take that moon away and you will discover it's purpose.
What?

How about this: If God exists, then God can be found.
How about this: People have found the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, Big-headed aliens. "Finding things" only proves that people are gullible.





Evolution is a small part of the picture. Creation knowledge runs deeper than the surface.

"Creation knowledge" is an oxymoron.

On the other hand God created the universe to unfold in such a way that given enough time it will be discovered. Poof creation is not reality. Reality adds up.
That's your opinion, nothing more.




When you ask about Spiritual beings, it's clear you do not even know who you are. It's another avenue one could explore.
I have no interest in exploring woo other than to debunk it whenever possible.


I get it that you came from your mother and father. Why and for what reason do people exist? Why do you exist? What is your purpose in life? What is it all about? AS you see it, Does eternity have purpose? What is that purpose?

The "whys" that you refer to all fall under the umbrella of woo. Nature doesn't have a why.


Look around you. Doesn't everything have purpose?
Sure my car has a purpose. Man-made things have a purpose. Nature is not man-made.

Have you really never asked yourself these questions?
What questions? Why some people believe in woo? Sure, I've asked those questions and I have a pretty good theory.

Do I really know nothing about you? Your words and your actions teach me who you are. Are you sure you know who you really are?
Well, there's your incredible ego asserting itself again. You've read a couple of posts and you think you know more about me than I do. You could probably get a great job with the CIA spotting terrorists.

On the other hand, they would probably not accept you because they can spot a holier than thou phony just as easily as I can.

Interesting. In what way have I been phony? I have been up front and honest.

You know there are many people who are not true to themselves. I wonder why you narrow yourself in such a box, limiting the possibilities around you.

Everything has purpose. Take the moon for example. How many reproductive cycles throughout the world would be disrupted without the moon? How much of nature depends on it? How about this: How would the delicate balance of Earth's rotation and tilt change without the moon? There is so much you miss when you limit your possibilities.

More exists beyond the surface. When mankind learns something it opens doors to new possibilities, more lessons and more learning. To deny this would be to ignore Truth!

To rely on a box of Beliefs not open to discover more, whether one is a person of religion or not is not the path to Truth. This is the reason I say science will discover God before religion will. Science corrects mistakes. And Yes, science is just as much a study of God as any religion is, maybe more so.

Seems you classify everything under woo. You are going to have to better define woo for me. Do you think it means too good to be true? That still does not answer what you think your purpose is? Have you no purpose being here?

If you have no purpose, what is your goal in life? Is it to have it made?

How about this question: Have you made conditions in your life that if things were not your way that you would get mad and wall off your thinking from even the possibility God exists? Does this push you to ignore the purpose of things around you to further reinforce your belief that God could not possibly exist? Tell me your story. I need more information.

Ah yes, Ego. Ego gets in the way of so much learning. To correct your view of me, let me tell you how and what I think. It's all Math. Further, I see you and everyone as Children of God. That makes everyone to me very Special. There is no one like you nor will there ever be one exactly like you again.

Yes, I can step on toes especially if they don't want to hear what I am saying. Truth tends to do that as well.

AS I see it. Eternity does have purpose just like you and everything around us. The Math will add up in everything Discovered if it is the Truth!

 

[Polymath257]

Interesting. In what way have I been phony? I have been up front and honest.

You know there are many people who are not true to themselves. I wonder why you narrow yourself in such a box, limiting the possibilities around you.

Everything has purpose. Take the moon for example. How many reproductive cycles throughout the world would be disrupted without the moon? How much of nature depends on it? How about this: How would the delicate balance of Earth's rotation and tilt change without the moon? There is so much you miss when you limit your possibilities.

You are confusing purpose and cause. These organisms adapted to the existence of the moon, so have cycles that align with it. If there was no moon, they wouldn't need the cycles.

More exists beyond the surface. When mankind learns something it opens doors to new possibilities, more lessons and more learning. To deny this would be to ignore Truth!

To rely on a box of Beliefs not open to discover more, whether one is a person of religion or not is not the path to Truth. This is the reason I say science will discover God before religion will. Science corrects mistakes. And Yes, science is just as much a study of God as any religion is, maybe more so.

Seems you classify everything under woo. You are going to have to better define woo for me. Do you think it means too good to be true? That still does not answer what you think your purpose is? Have you no purpose being here?

Woo consists of ideas that are either untestable or have been tested and shown to be wrong. It is the triumph of hopeful egos over facts.

Purpose? That is something determined by conscious beings. My purpose to those at my job is to do my job. My purpose to my wife is to be a caring and helpful partner. My purpose to myself is to learn, grow, think deeply, and feel compassion towards others.

But there is no evidence of purpose outside of what we humans decide is a purpose.

If you have no purpose, what is your goal in life? Is it to have it made?

My purpose is what *I* decide it to be. In my own case, it is as I stated above: to learn, to teach, to feel compassion, to help others, to think deeply, to love freely, etc.

How about this question: Have you made conditions in your life that if things were not your way that you would get mad and wall off your thinking from even the possibility God exists? Does this push you to ignore the purpose of things around you to further reinforce your belief that God could not possibly exist? Tell me your story. I need more information.

I don't need to 'wall off' anything to lack a belief in a deity. It isn't a disbelief produced by anger or regret. It is the result of looking at the evidence of science, history, humans psychology, etc and determining that deities are mythological creatures. They are good for metaphors and literature, but not for knowledge and facts.

Ah yes, Ego. Ego gets in the way of so much learning. To correct your view of me, let me tell you how and what I think. It's all Math. Further, I see you and everyone as Children of God. That makes everyone to me very Special. There is no one like you nor will there ever be one exactly like you again.

Yes, I can step on toes especially if they don't want to hear what I am saying. Truth tends to do that as well.

AS I see it. Eternity does have purpose just like you and everything around us. The Math will add up in everything Discovered if it is the Truth!

I suspect your understanding of math is quite limited. But I'm willing to be proven wrong there.

 

[ecco]

Interesting. In what way have I been phony? I have been up front and honest.

I guess you failed to understand what I wrote. Here, I'll give you another shot at it.

Well, there's your incredible ego asserting itself again. You've read a couple of posts and you think you know more about me than I do. You could probably get a great job with the CIA spotting terrorists.

On the other hand, they would probably not accept you because they can spot a holier than thou phony just as easily as I can.​

 

[ecco]

Everything has purpose. Take the moon for example. How many reproductive cycles throughout the world would be disrupted without the moon? How much of nature depends on it? How about this: How would the delicate balance of Earth's rotation and tilt change without the moon? There is so much you miss when you limit your possibilities.

You are really dipping deeply into the woo pile when you state you believe the moon was put there with a purpose.


The moon is there. If the moon was not there, you probably would not exist. Do you believe the moon's purpose is your existence?

 

[ecco]

More exists beyond the surface.

Wooism

When mankind learns something it opens doors to new possibilities, more lessons and more learning. To deny this would be to ignore Truth!

Why do you feel the need to capitalize "Truth"? Do you think you know some special "Truths" while the rest of us just slog along accepting some things as being just plain old true?

 

[ecco]

This is the reason I say science will discover God before religion will.

Which "God"? The god who created everything Last Thursday? The god who set up Adam & Eve to fail? How can science discover a god? How can it determine whether or not everything was created last Thursday?