The Nativity Tales...... reversing into the truth?

[oldbadger]

Christianity has often reversed itself into the world. For instance, many ancient European church sites were in fact meeting places for various other religions. There was not much point in an evangelist going anywhere else or they would have been preaching to empty spaces!

But taking historic facts and incidents and manipulating them into a story like the Nativity in order to satisfy a whole bunch of prophesies....... well that could be classed as a bit of a fib. But then, if you believe that you are doing God's Will then I expect that could be a defence of sorts.

The Death of King Herod in 4BC, a taxation census ordered for Iudea (Judea, Samaria and Idumea) in 6CE, the fact that every suburban inn around Jerusalem, would be chock-full (with no spare rooms) at any great feast, the fact that King Herod killed so many of his children that Caesar joked about it, that Mary may have been a Temple virgin, ........... etc etc, there is quite a long list of facts and possibilities, which, if spun, edited, enlarged, stretched and outright manipulated, they can be contorted into a Nativity which fulfills the required prophesies.

And then, centuries on from initiation, the religion can be further reveresed into various pagan festivals and such as mid-winter solstice feasts etc......... and eventually comes the arrival of :-

CHRISTMAS! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And I'm not really knocking Christmas because I enjoy so much about it; I just like to enjoy it all with my feet firmly on the ground until the huge dinners and glasses of guinness knock me off 'em!

And so to all who love it, all who reject it, all who hate it, all who just cope with it.............
..... MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[metis]

The scriptures are subjective "history", and objective-historical accuracy was not that terribly important thousands of years ago.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christianity has often reversed itself into the world. For instance, many ancient European church sites were in fact meeting places for various other religions. There was not much point in an evangelist going anywhere else or they would have been preaching to empty spaces!

But taking historic facts and incidents and manipulating them into a story like the Nativity in order to satisfy a whole bunch of prophesies....... well that could be classed as a bit of a fib. But then, if you believe that you are doing God's Will then I expect that could be a defence of sorts.

The Death of King Herod in 4BC, a taxation census ordered for Iudea (Judea, Samaria and Idumea) in 6CE, the fact that every suburban inn around Jerusalem, would be chock-full (with no spare rooms) at any great feast, the fact that King Herod killed so many of his children that Caesar joked about it, that Mary may have been a Temple virgin, ........... etc etc, there is quite a long list of facts and possibilities, which, if spun, edited, enlarged, stretched and outright manipulated, they can be contorted into a Nativity which fulfills the required prophesies.

And then, centuries on from initiation, the religion can be further reveresed into various pagan festivals and such as mid-winter solstice feasts etc......... and eventually comes the arrival of :-

CHRISTMAS! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And I'm not really knocking Christmas because I enjoy so much about it; I just like to enjoy it all with my feet firmly on the ground until the huge dinners and glasses of guinness knock me off 'em!

And so to all who love it, all who reject it, all who hate it, all who just cope with it.............
..... MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I just enjoy it for what it represents. A lot of good cheer!

 

[buddhist]

And so to all who love it, all who reject it, all who hate it, all who just cope with it.............
..... MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Happy Festivus right back at'cha!

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Have a Happy Solstice, a Merry Christmas, a Reflective Yule, a Heartwarming Hannukah, a Partyful New Year...and so on!

Happy Holidays, y'all!

[By the way, it's my birthday next week: I like chocolate, money, and books, not necessarily in that order]

 

[Kemosloby]

Christmas isn't in the bible. Ex pagans made it up.

 

[oldbadger]

Christmas isn't in the bible. Ex pagans made it up.

Pagans?
What, real pagans who have really naughty parties and stuff?
Oh goody goody... !

Merry Christmas, Merry Mid Winter Solstice. Merry Long Weekend!

 

[oldbadger]

The scriptures are subjective "history", and objective-historical accuracy was not that terribly important thousands of years ago.

I guess that you are right.
Never mind.... Truth is a bit subjective today, I notice.

 

[oldbadger]

I just enjoy it for what it represents. A lot of good cheer!

Fair enough.
May you have a most pleasant long weekend of good cheer!

 

[oldbadger]

Christmas isn't in the bible. Ex pagans made it up.

Yeah, but it's fun if you just hang in there and enjoy it.
A mate of mine works in a London soup kitchen over Christmas, and says it makes for a brilliant time.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Christianity has often reversed itself into the world. For instance, many ancient European church sites were in fact meeting places for various other religions. There was not much point in an evangelist going anywhere else or they would have been preaching to empty spaces!

But taking historic facts and incidents and manipulating them into a story like the Nativity in order to satisfy a whole bunch of prophesies....... well that could be classed as a bit of a fib. But then, if you believe that you are doing God's Will then I expect that could be a defence of sorts.

The Death of King Herod in 4BC, a taxation census ordered for Iudea (Judea, Samaria and Idumea) in 6CE, the fact that every suburban inn around Jerusalem, would be chock-full (with no spare rooms) at any great feast, the fact that King Herod killed so many of his children that Caesar joked about it, that Mary may have been a Temple virgin, ........... etc etc, there is quite a long list of facts and possibilities, which, if spun, edited, enlarged, stretched and outright manipulated, they can be contorted into a Nativity which fulfills the required prophesies.

And then, centuries on from initiation, the religion can be further reveresed into various pagan festivals and such as mid-winter solstice feasts etc......... and eventually comes the arrival of :-

CHRISTMAS! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And I'm not really knocking Christmas because I enjoy so much about it; I just like to enjoy it all with my feet firmly on the ground until the huge dinners and glasses of guinness knock me off 'em!

And so to all who love it, all who reject it, all who hate it, all who just cope with it.............
..... MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Happy Yule

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Christmas isn't in the bible. Ex pagans made it up.

For over 300 years Christians didn't concern themselves with when jesus was born. And the "mangers" in the region at the time weren't freestanding buildings as most believers "think".
Plus no census would require people to return to the town where they were born. It would serve no purpose. You want to know where people are now.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Fair enough.
May you have a most pleasant long weekend of good cheer!

Good to see you again. Thank you for all you great posts during the year. Have a happy holiday and New Year.

 

[oldbadger]

Happy Yule

And to you.....
Yes. Of course. Yule was about for a very long time before Christianity came......

 

[metis]

Plus no census would require people to return to the town where they were born. It would serve no purpose. You want to know where people are now.

Good point. However, we need to remember that the probable purpose of the nativity narratives is not to cover history objectively but to link Jesus to David subjectively.

 

[oldbadger]

For over 300 years Christians didn't concern themselves with when jesus was born. And the "mangers" in the region at the time weren't freestanding buildings as most believers "think".
Plus no census would require people to return to the town where they were born. It would serve no purpose. You want to know where people are now.

Yes to all of your points.
The census only covered 3 provinces and Galilee wasn't one of them. But Luke did his best to fill in all those gaps in the prophesies, and let's face it, it worked fairly well for a couple of millenia or so.

May you have a most pleasant weekend.....

 

[metis]

The Roman historians simply find no evidence that any such census occurred around the time of Jesus' birth, and when they were constructed they involved stating where one was from. IOW, there was no reason to go back from where one was born, plus Jesus wasn't likely born in Bethlehem anyway.

 

[oldbadger]

Good point. However, we need to remember that the probable purpose of the nativity narratives is not to cover history objectively but to link Jesus to David subjectively.

Yep. It's just a matter of whether to describe the tales as either subjective fullfilment, or naughty fibs, or outright deceptions, or holy scriptures.......

I like to think that Luke, Matthew and John simply felt driven to assist the evangelical message. A bit like telling kiddies about Father Christmas and his reindeer only a bit more serious in consequences.

 

[oldbadger]

The Roman historians simply find no evidence that any such census occurred around the time of Jesus' birth, and when they were constructed they involved stating where one was from. IOW, there was no reason to go back from where one was born, plus Jesus wasn't likely born in Bethlehem anyway.

I have read that there were in fact 2 attempts at taking a census in 6AD, the first was attempted by the new Governor (Coponius?) to Judea, Idumea and Samaria which ended in demonstrations and riots, mostly lead by Judas the Galilean, and then a second census was conducted by the Syrian Legate Quirinius. In addition to any copunts for various provincial licenses and taxres there was a count of sacrificial lamb kidnets from one great feast the results sent back to Rome, which suggests to me that the charges for currency exchange into Temple money were taxed for Rome, a huge financial gain because of the vast crowds that attended the great feastsa and the everyday visits.

Yep.... there was a census, but it didn't cover any other provinces.

 

[metis]

I have read that there were in fact 2 attempts at taking a census in 6AD, the first was attempted by the new Governor (Coponius?) to Judea, Idumea and Samaria which ended in demonstrations and riots, mostly lead by Judas the Galilean, and then a second census was conducted by the Syrian Legate Quirinius. In addition to any copunts for various provincial licenses and taxres there was a count of sacrificial lamb kidnets from one great feast the results sent back to Rome, which suggests to me that the charges for currency exchange into Temple money were taxed for Rome, a huge financial gain because of the vast crowds that attended the great feastsa and the everyday visits.

Yep.... there was a census, but it didn't cover any other provinces.

Do you chance you have a link to that? It's been a long time since I researched this, but it seems to me that the closest Roman census took place later than that date by a couple of decades with another one being considerable earlier than when Jesus was likely born.