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The Nativity Tales...... reversing into the truth?

arthra

arthra

Baha'i
I have fora long time personally been attracted to the story of the Magi that were seeking a fulfillment of prophecy of Zoroaster ...

7. And it came to pass, when the Lord Jesus was born at Bethlehem of Judea, in the time of King Herod, behold, magi came from the east to Jerusalem, as Zeraduscht (Zoroaster) had predicted; and there were with them gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And they adored Him, and presented to Him their gifts. Then the Lady Mary took one of the swaddling-bands, and, on account of the smallness of her means, gave it to them; and they received it from her with the greatest marks of honor." - Infancy Gospel
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
metis said:
Do you chance you have a link to that? It's been a long time since I researched this, but it seems to me that the closest Roman census took place later than that date by a couple of decades with another one being considerable earlier than when Jesus was likely born.
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....not that I can give you from this laptop, but I can copy an entry from Josephus about Judas the Galilean who was one of the many who rebelled against Coponius's incompetent attempt at an accounting and taxation process as soon as he took over as prefect, and the Syrian Legate's subsequent census:-
Judas the Galilean (6 CE)
Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.

Story: The Jewish king
Herod Archelaus was an incapable ruler, and the Roman authorities decided to dispose him in 6 CE. His realm, Judea, Samaria and Idumea, was annexed as the province Judaea. The new governor, a man named Coponius, tried to establish new taxes, but a large rebellion was the only result. Its leader was Judas the Galilean, and when the high priest Joazar had shown himself incapable of overcoming the rebellion, the governor of adjacent Syria interfered and conducted the census. This was Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, well known from the census mentioned in the Gospel of Luke (2.2).

'There was one Judas, a Galilean, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Zadok, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt. Both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same. So men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.4-6]
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
oldbadger said:
....not that I can give you from this laptop, but I can copy an entry from Josephus about Judas the Galilean who was one of the many who rebelled against Coponius's incompetent attempt at an accounting and taxation process as soon as he took over as prefect, and the Syrian Legate's subsequent census:-
Judas the Galilean (6 CE)
Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.

Story: The Jewish king
Herod Archelaus was an incapable ruler, and the Roman authorities decided to dispose him in 6 CE. His realm, Judea, Samaria and Idumea, was annexed as the province Judaea. The new governor, a man named Coponius, tried to establish new taxes, but a large rebellion was the only result. Its leader was Judas the Galilean, and when the high priest Joazar had shown himself incapable of overcoming the rebellion, the governor of adjacent Syria interfered and conducted the census. This was Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, well known from the census mentioned in the Gospel of Luke (2.2).

'There was one Judas, a Galilean, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Zadok, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt. Both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same. So men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.4-6]
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Yes, it appears that the above census took place prior to Jesus birth as I checked out some other sources as well.

Thanks.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
metis said:
Yes, it appears that the above census took place prior to Jesus birth as I checked out some other sources as well.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Exactly so! :)
The Nativity tales ignored the incompetent Coponius census and just used (abused?) the Quirinius census as an obscure reason for dragging Joseph south.

There was a sacrificial lamb kidney-count for Rome as well, and somewhere I have details about that. It shows that Rome did have a 'return' from Temple fees and this was probably gathered through a % of the Temple-Coin exchange rates.

This is important to me because it produces a reason for a Galilean to be involved in a revolt over a Judaean census! It provides a micro-level of truth to Luke's claims of the census involving 'all the world' or should he have written 'all Palestine'...?

In fact, there is quite a list of individual real-facts which were used as truth-pills in the evolved nativity tales. I often wonder about the visiting Magi... there must have been an event which was then spun into the story, possibly a consortium of Eastern Traders might well have visited either King Herod (pre 4BC) or Ethnarch Archelaus (post 6AD) and there may have been some contention in this visit which caused a scurrying away?

It's all rather difficult, and seeing as recent events take years of research to partially unravel I think we're doing the best that we can with 2000 year old events. :)
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So then we are all agreed there was a census just as the Bible says. I'm glad we could agree on something! :D Not Bethlehem huh? I am told it translates out to 'House of God' Where else?
 
P

pearl

Well-Known Member
oldbadger said:
In fact, there is quite a list of individual real-facts which were used as truth-pills in the evolved nativity tales. I often wonder about the visiting Magi... there must have been an event which was then spun into the story, possibly a consortium of Eastern Traders might well have visited either King Herod (pre 4BC) or Ethnarch Archelaus (post 6AD) and there may have been some contention in this visit which caused a scurrying away?

It's all rather difficult, and seeing as recent events take years of research to partially unravel I think we're doing the best that we can with 2000 year old events. :)
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While its always interesting to search out what may be historically factual it is necessary to discern the different levels of the 'story'. One being the bare bones confession of faith, (that the man Jesus is the Christ and Son of God) the other, the narrative with its highly symbolic details. This is the Christology of the sacred writers so evident throughout the NT.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
oldbadger said:
This is important to me because it produces a reason for a Galilean to be involved in a revolt over a Judaean census! It provides a micro-level of truth to Luke's claims of the census involving 'all the world' or should he have written 'all Palestine'...?
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Isn't subjectivity wonderful to behold. But then there are the literalists. :(
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
pcarl said:
While its always interesting to search out what may be historically factual it is necessary to discern the different levels of the 'story'. One being the bare bones confession of faith, (that the man Jesus is the Christ and Son of God) the other, the narrative with its highly symbolic details. This is the Christology of the sacred writers so evident throughout the NT.
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No problem. If some people want to rate and give value to the New Testament as a collection of symbolic tales or legends ro support their faith, then that's fine.
But students of history will probably do their best to investigate for as much history as possible.
And we are lucky to be able to do this..... historical study, that is......... bnecause in many eras gone by we would have been executed for trying to do so. :)
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
metis said:
Good point. However, we need to remember that the probable purpose of the nativity narratives is not to cover history objectively but to link Jesus to David subjectively.
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He may have been born in a different Bethlehem. I don’t mean Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

The Naked Archaeologist
Jesus: The Early Years
23:59•Full Episode•Season 1 Episode 9

The Gospels sometimes contradict each other in their descriptions of Jesus’ early years and not much is known about how he spent his childhood. Now archaeology can help uncover some clues about his early influences and even his birth.
Aired: 10/31/2005•Not Rated•Syndicado
Genre: Documentaries


Watch The Naked Archaeologist Season 1 Episode 9 Free Online - Jesus: The Early Years
 
P

pearl

Well-Known Member
oldbadger said:
And we are lucky to be able to do this..... historical study,
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And much appreciation goes to the historical critical method through which we have gained insight. Archeology is helpful to a point. The difficulty, the Gospels are the only source for the life of Jesus.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
pcarl said:
And much appreciation goes to the historical critical method through which we have gained insight. Archeology is helpful to a point.
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I'm not interested in critical method. I just do my best to investigate as best I can, no Christian Agenda because I'm not a Christian, no Atheist Agenda because I'm not an atheist.

The difficulty, the Gospels are the only source for the life of Jesus.
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No. Josephus, Celcius and a few others wrote about Jesus during the 1st and 2nd centuries.If you would rather dismioss 2nd century accounts then you would need to dismiss G-John as well. :)
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
oldbadger said:
I'm glad Jesus wasn't born in Pennsylvania. We'd never hear the end of it!
Jesus, the all-American wholesome prophet from just down the road. Our local Deity! :)
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Well, if he told people he was from Neptune, NJ they probably would have locked him up even sooner.
 
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